kanucks25 Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 1 minute ago, DSVII said: Damn this is a sparse list. Gaudette (5th round) - but no significant contributions Tryamkin for a brief stint made an impact, then bolted to the KHL Hopefuls to come up soon: Rathbone, Kole Lind, Woo, And of course, Hoglander this year, but that is outside your time range. Exactly. This is the first regular season, the 7th, that any of our non-1st rounders are contributing/put in roles that you would consider significant (like top-6, top-4, starting goalie). Really the only exception is Demko's 3-week run in last year's playoffs. So again - I don't see any evidence (at least not thus far) that Benning has been successful drafting outside the top of the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, kanucks25 said: Exactly. This is the first regular season, the 7th, that any of our non-1st rounders are contributing/put in roles that you would consider significant (like top-6, top-4, starting goalie). Really the only exception is Demko's 3-week run in last year's playoffs. So again - I don't see any evidence (at least not thus far) that Benning has been successful drafting outside the top of the draft. To add to this, I can accept the premise that Benning is a better drafter than Gillis (although drafting is usually delegated to a team of scouts than a GM), that trait is useless if Benning keeps handing out draft picks like Candy. Just the first 3 rounds during his tenure. A 1st for Miller A 2nd for Linden Vey A 2nd for Sven Baerschi A 2nd for Sutter A 2nd for Gudbranson A 2nd for Toffoli A 3rd for Dorsett A 3rd for Miller He cut off his right hand (drafting) with his left (asset management) here. An excerpt from the Athletic: https://theathletic.com/2373679/2021/02/08/canucks-lack-vision-mess-dayal/ Quote Vancouver’s short-term fixation was the rationale behind trading draft picks for young players further ahead in the development process, the “age gap” experiment if you will. Between 2014 and 2017, the Canucks surrendered Jared McCann, three second-round picks, a third-round pick, a fourth-round pick and a fifth-round pick in trades. Coming back they got Linden Vey, Sven Baertschi, Erik Gudbranson (who turned into Tanner Pearson), Andrey Pedan, Derrick Pouliot and Philip Larsen. In other words, Pearson is all that Vancouver has left to show right now for a middle-six forward in McCann and six draft picks. One wonders what that draft capital could have netted for an organization that prides itself on its drafting. Edited February 24, 2021 by DSVII 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 16 minutes ago, DSVII said: To add to this, I can accept the premise that Benning is a better drafter than Gillis (although drafting is usually delegated to a team of scouts than a GM), that trait is useless if Benning keeps handing out draft picks like Candy. Just the first 3 rounds during his tenure. A 1st for Miller A 2nd for Linden Vey A 2nd for Sven Baerschi A 2nd for Sutter A 2nd for Gudbranson A 2nd for Toffoli A 3rd for Dorsett A 3rd for Miller He cut off his right hand (drafting) with his left (asset management) here. An excerpt from the Athletic: https://theathletic.com/2373679/2021/02/08/canucks-lack-vision-mess-dayal/ If some of those picks were used to draft support players so that we wouldn't have to pay 3-5M x 2-4 years for depth players in free agency, it may have given us enough cap to keep/add players to the top of our lineup. Schmidt was a great pickup but he should have been added to our D-group, not replacing someone like Tanev who was very important to our top-4. The window has already closed on capitalizing on the cheap years of EP and Hughes; we'll see if the team can push while Hog and Pod are both still on their ELCs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 12 minutes ago, DSVII said: To add to this, I can accept the premise that Benning is a better drafter than Gillis (although drafting is usually delegated to a team of scouts than a GM), that trait is useless if Benning keeps handing out draft picks like Candy. Just the first 3 rounds during his tenure. A 1st for Miller A 2nd for Linden Vey A 2nd for Sven Baerschi A 2nd for Sutter A 2nd for Gudbranson A 2nd for Toffoli A 3rd for Dorsett A 3rd for Miller He cut off his right hand (drafting) with his left (asset management) here. An excerpt from the Athletic: https://theathletic.com/2373679/2021/02/08/canucks-lack-vision-mess-dayal/ It’s kind of amazing that Benning is applauded. I got my ”don’t fit a GM-suit due lack of diplomatic skill”. Then we have all the bad contracts wich is not the players fault. That is all on Benning. After that lack of drafting. The only thing Benning got was a lot of first rounders that is very good but when neanderthal hockey begins in play off it only takes one hit and we loose a star player like Hughes. Who here think that Hughes,Petey and Höglander will be in division final without being injured? To be a candidate for Calder Cup during the ordinary season counts for nothing when the play off begin. Boeser has been injured a lot. Now, after a few years it seems he’s on his way back. but two years is much for a competing team. I’m amazed Petey managed to be almost without injuries as much as he’s been pushed. Maybe he’s made of rubber... Hughes has had his first ”easy” season. Someone will pluck him if they think it’s needed. I’ve watched a few Flames games due to Marky and a bunch of other swedes and Ward seems to think as Green. They play very similar to the Canucks. And the fans talk just like the fans here, fire Ward and the GM has had too much time to fix the team etc... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, kanucks25 said: Exactly. This is the first regular season, the 7th, that any of our non-1st rounders are contributing/put in roles that you would consider significant (like top-6, top-4, starting goalie). Really the only exception is Demko's 3-week run in last year's playoffs. So again - I don't see any evidence (at least not thus far) that Benning has been successful drafting outside the top of the draft. ...and his 1st round picks aren't screaming huge success. He has had at least as many misses as hits, and that is tough to swallow when you are in the top 10. Here are the other draft lists and who they would have selected at the time based on best player available from their list when we picked. Petterson is the clear win, Virtanen and Juolevi clear losses... Hughes a bit of a win as half the lists took Wahlstrom and half took Hughes... and Boeser and bit of a wash since basically everyone picked him or Konecny. Benning’s Draft 2014 Virtanen, McCann 2015 Boeser 2016 Juolevi 2017 Petterson 2018 Hughes Button’s Drafting2014 - Ehlers, Kempe 2015 - Boeser (he had him 9th) 2016 - Matthew Tkachuk 2017 - Glass 2018 – HughesISS Ranking 2014 – Nylander, McCann 2015 – Konecny 2016 – Tkachuk 2017 – Vilardi 2018 - Wahlstrom Pronman – ESPN/The Athletic 2014 - Nylander, Pastrnak 2015 – Konecny 2016 - Keller 2017 - Vilardi 2018 - Hughes McKeen’s Hockey 2014 – Ehlers, McCann 2015 – Konecny 2016 - Tkachuk 2017 – Vilardi 2018 - Wahlstrom Bob McKenzie 2014 – Ritchie, McCann 2015 – Konecny 2016 – Tkachuk 2017 - Vilardi 2018 - Bouchard Ryan Kennedy (The Hockey News) 2014 – Nylander, McCann 2015 – Boeser 2016 - Tkachuk 2017 - Vilardi 2018 - Boqvist Hockey Prospect Magazine 2014 – Ritchie, Barbashev 2015 – Merkley 2016 – Chychrun 2017 – Petterson 2018 - Dobson The Hockey Writers Consensus 2014 – Virtanen, Ho-Sang 2015 - Konecny 2016 – Chychrun 2017 - Vilardi 2018 - Bouchard Edited February 25, 2021 by Provost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCustodian Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Aquilini is clearly the biggest problem with this organization. Nobody can tell him to "sell the team", but he sure needs to get his big nose out of hockey ops and maybe get off Twitter and leave us alone. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 8 minutes ago, TheCustodian said: Aquilini is clearly the biggest problem with this organization. Nobody can tell him to "sell the team", but he sure needs to get his big nose out of hockey ops and maybe get off Twitter and leave us alone. It's very telling he's making a statement about this run of games instead of Benning. He wants to be Jerry Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianRugby Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 10 hours ago, IBatch said: Fortunately he's learned from his mistakes, and didn't sign any of the UFAs. Because he had no cap space to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatedkid666 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Benning is the worst gm in the league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camaro ss Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Benning is not the problem it’s Aquaman. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 52 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said: Because he had no cap space to do it. Sure. Holtby plus Schmidt....plus JV Edited February 25, 2021 by IBatch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 8 hours ago, kanucks25 said: Exactly. This is the first regular season, the 7th, that any of our non-1st rounders are contributing/put in roles that you would consider significant (like top-6, top-4, starting goalie). Really the only exception is Demko's 3-week run in last year's playoffs. So again - I don't see any evidence (at least not thus far) that Benning has been successful drafting outside the top of the draft. I've always said the exact same thing and ppl laugh troll personal attack me all day for it lol. Benning drafting sucks. 50% hit rate on 1st rounders on a rebuilding team. Whiffed hard ona 5th and 6th overall. Traded McCann for a pylon and then doubled down signing him to an extension. Then ppl would start listing names like Lind woo Rafferty gadovich Rathbone etc etc etc. Cool you can prolly go down the list of all the nhl team and list a bunch of prospects name too... good chunk of them will never make the NHL... but a good chunk of you thinks all of them is going to be a top 6 or top 4 defenseman on this team and our future is bright.. really right now the only prospect we have thats guaranteed to have a shot in the NHL is Podz.. everyone else is just a maybe hopefully.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 6 hours ago, Provost said: ...and his 1st round picks aren't screaming huge success. He has had at least as many misses as hits, and that is tough to swallow when you are in the top 10. Here are the other draft lists and who they would have selected at the time based on best player available from their list when we picked. Petterson is the clear win, Virtanen and Juolevi clear losses... Hughes a bit of a win as half the lists took Wahlstrom and half took Hughes... and Boeser and bit of a wash since basically everyone picked him or Konecny. Benning’s Draft 2014 Virtanen, McCann 2015 Boeser 2016 Juolevi 2017 Petterson 2018 Hughes Button’s Drafting2014 - Ehlers, Kempe 2015 - Boeser (he had him 9th) 2016 - Matthew Tkachuk 2017 - Glass 2018 – HughesISS Ranking 2014 – Nylander, McCann 2015 – Konecny 2016 – Tkachuk 2017 – Vilardi 2018 - Wahlstrom Pronman – ESPN/The Athletic 2014 - Nylander, Pastrnak 2015 – Konecny 2016 - Puljujarvi 2017 - Vilardi 2018 - Hughes McKeen’s Hockey 2014 – Ehlers, McCann 2015 – Konecny 2016 - Tkachuk 2017 – Vilardi 2018 - Wahlstrom Bob McKenzie 2014 – Ritchie, McCann 2015 – Konecny 2016 – Tkachuk 2017 - Vilardi 2018 - Bouchard Ryan Kennedy (The Hockey News) 2014 – Nylander, McCann 2015 – Boeser 2016 - Tkachuk 2017 - Vilardi 2018 - Boqvist Hockey Prospect Magazine 2014 – Ritchie, Barbashev 2015 – Merkley 2016 – Chychrun 2017 – Petterson 2018 - Dobson The Hockey Writers Consensus 2014 – Virtanen, Ho-Sang 2015 - Konecny 2016 – Chychrun 2017 - Vilardi 2018 - Bouchard THN have their own list a compilation of ten pro scouts for each of their drafts, Ryan Kennedy is just one of their (younger) writers so that's not their official list. It's a lot different then his. Also how can Puljajarvi be the BPA available at 5 when he's already gone. Of those teams, only the Athletics looks better, and we don't know who they really had as BPA given EDM already picked Puljajarvi at 4. Also i'm too lazy to check bit International Scouting Services looks off going from memory so will trust you got it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Long Live Aquaman & Co! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 3 hours ago, IBatch said: THN have their own list a compilation of ten pro scouts for each of their drafts, Ryan Kennedy is just one of their (younger) writers so that's not their official list. It's a lot different then his. Also how can Puljajarvi be the BPA available at 5 when he's already gone. Of those teams, only the Athletics looks better, and we don't know who they really had as BPA given EDM already picked Puljajarvi at 4. Also i'm too lazy to check bit International Scouting Services looks off going from memory so will trust you got it though. I corrected the Pulujarvi one as I somehow transcribed it wrong. As for Ryan Kennedy, he has been listed as a senior writer and editor for years on that site and his rankings are the only ones I have found to be available for that whole time period... so you are welcome to go find a consensus ranking for each of the years and provide them. I definitely take Button’s group and the one from The Athletic above Bennings. You could create a combined consensus list using an algorithm weighting their historical track record and probably end up with a great list that does better than anyone’s scouting department. If you include all the lists that I excluded because I couldn’t find them for every year and just count the occurrences... you probably end up with. Nylander, McCann Konecny/Boeser (basically tied) Tkachuk Vilardi Hughes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 So now Benning even sucks at drafting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 That is how Benning did against various lists. Now I wonder how other teams did against those lists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 10 hours ago, wai_lai416 said: I've always said the exact same thing and ppl laugh troll personal attack me all day for it lol. Benning drafting sucks. 50% hit rate on 1st rounders on a rebuilding team. Whiffed hard ona 5th and 6th overall. Traded McCann for a pylon and then doubled down signing him to an extension. Then ppl would start listing names like Lind woo Rafferty gadovich Rathbone etc etc etc. Cool you can prolly go down the list of all the nhl team and list a bunch of prospects name too... good chunk of them will never make the NHL... but a good chunk of you thinks all of them is going to be a top 6 or top 4 defenseman on this team and our future is bright.. really right now the only prospect we have thats guaranteed to have a shot in the NHL is Podz.. everyone else is just a maybe hopefully.. Well if your not trolling your not educating yourself either. All the moaning about trading picks - with the picks brought in he was flush up to the Miller trade - even. As far as how good is he at drafting? There's a method to compare based on ADP. Look it up, he's firmly in the top third of the league at drafting based on average draft position, which is a way of leveling the playing field against great teams who draft late every year. Or spend some time and look at who other teams have drafted and how well they've done too. Until you do that, probably shouldn't comment like this or you will look like either a troll, or naive. At the same time he's not a drafting god either is he. But i don't read folks saying that either. The past two years, which gives you the proper 4 year sample size to judge this way, he's being around 9th best drafted overall. TB is first, by a long shot. EDM the worst. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 minute ago, IBatch said: Well if your not trolling your not educating yourself either. All the moaning about trading picks - with the picks brought in he was flush up to the Miller trade - even. As far as how good is he at drafting? There's a method to compare based on ADP. Look it up, he's firmly in the top third of the league at drafting based on average draft position, which is a way of leveling the playing field against great teams who draft late every year. Or spend some time and look at who other teams have drafted and how well they've done too (over the same time period of course). Until you do that, probably shouldn't comment like this or you will look like either a troll, or naive. At the same time he's not a drafting god either is he. But i don't read folks saying that either. The past two years, which gives you the proper 4 year sample size to judge this way, he's being around 9th best drafter overall. TB is first, by a long shot. EDM the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Provost said: I corrected the Pulujarvi one as I somehow transcribed it wrong. As for Ryan Kennedy, he has been listed as a senior writer and editor for years on that site and his rankings are the only ones I have found to be available for that whole time period... so you are welcome to go find a consensus ranking for each of the years and provide them. I definitely take Button’s group and the one from The Athletic above Bennings. You could create a combined consensus list using an algorithm weighting their historical track record and probably end up with a great list that does better than anyone’s scouting department. If you include all the lists that I excluded because I couldn’t find them for every year and just count the occurrences... you probably end up with. Nylander, McCann Konecny/Boeser (basically tied) Tkachuk Vilardi Hughes All their regular writers are called senior writers Jason Kay, Matt Larkin, Ken Campbell etc, some have been around a lot longer and i've been getting their 40ish issues delivered to the house since the mid-90's...not that i don't like Kennedy's stuff but he's no Bob McKenzie, Jason Kay or Ken Campbell either ... all their "senior writers " make their own ranking lists but shouldn't be considered, they do it for fun more then anything, and each one looks different just like when they rank best all time players etc - their consensus list come from a compilation of actual scouts in their two or three annual prospect mags. Best 50$ish a year i've spent for decades... from memory the BPA last few who was left from their consensus: Podz 3 Hughes/Bouchard 5/6 Glass/Valardi - EP was 9 MT 4 (OJ was 9) As per a different post. Their Future watch is one of the better ways to judge recent drafts - compiling every teams ranking of best 21 and under NHLers. It's done in four draft blocks. When JB took over the Canucks were dead last, and for good reason, MG six drafts were the worst six year block of drafting the clubs ever had. In comparison TB, the current best over a similar six year period, comes in around 9th best in the system - incredible drafting.... Vancouver almost immediately (and yes Horvat had something to do with this), went to 22, 17, 13, 11, 7, 3, 3 over his first six drafts. Meaning we went from the worst group of 21 and unders to 3rd best using their system. The important part is Horvat, JV, OJ, BB, etc have aged out ... in another year so will EP and QHs - and what happens next. Of course where you pick matters - during the 13,11,7,3 span we averaged around 8th overall in that period. Take the average draft position each year and compare the pool and that's how you get ADP. Can't start until year four obviously, then Horvat has aged out and it's all our picks... During his time here JB has routinely had a group of prospects ranked in the top hundred in the world. OJs been one all along, although he's slipped from 21 all the way into the mid 80's...and some top hundreds never play a game too (all of ours so far have - with the exception of Madden, Podz and Woo). Using this system - on a completely even playing field assuming everyone has all there picks - which up until Miller we have evened out - JB the last three years has made the top ten best drafting teams list in the NHL. TB is the best and it's really not even close. We also have one of the best group of young guys in the league - which is a good yard stick for adding five years and anticipating who's going to be a force in the league. Over the last decade or so of them doing this (THN), they've been correct most of the time with the exception of WNP, who still is a force, just not as a big one (boldly predicted they'd be winning cups around now after drafting Laine).... TO is leading our division now, and for a few years we're ranked number one 21 and under wise too, go figure. JB shouldn't get an A for drafting, but he deserves a B+, because average drafting would mean we'd be more like CAL last rebuild ... and it could be so much worse. He's currently giving Milford a run for his money, as best drafter ever - we won't know anything for certain for another 20 years though will we. Edited February 25, 2021 by IBatch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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