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[Edited] The Playoffs are Now out of Reach

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imo the main reason is the Defense. The players that went, Stecher, Tanev and Marky were all good players. We now have juolev schmidti who is ok defensively and Demko/holtby are doing a decent enough job. Also the team is underperforming, which i think may give credit to the whole corona situation and not having fans that help the players elevate their game on a normal day. if u look at Habs firing their coach despite them being in the top shows the difference on expectations as well as the current teams status. These are the main reasons for why we are where we are and why its highly unlikely that we will make the playoffs. For things to change u need something that changes their mindset to perform without an audience and the team forming a chemistry leading to a higher level of play for the individuals playing together. The team needs to be twice as good as they have been so far to even make the playoffs and that is highly unlikely.  

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7 hours ago, Mrwipeout said:

imo the main reason is the Defense. The players that went, Stecher, Tanev and Marky were all good players. We now have juolev schmidti who is ok defensively and Demko/holtby are doing a decent enough job. Also the team is underperforming, which i think may give credit to the whole corona situation and not having fans that help the players elevate their game on a normal day. if u look at Habs firing their coach despite them being in the top shows the difference on expectations as well as the current teams status. These are the main reasons for why we are where we are and why its highly unlikely that we will make the playoffs. For things to change u need something that changes their mindset to perform without an audience and the team forming a chemistry leading to a higher level of play for the individuals playing together. The team needs to be twice as good as they have been so far to even make the playoffs and that is highly unlikely.  

Doesn't help that the team isn't getting secondary scoring from AG and JV like they got last year either.  A hot mess for sure.   Positives - OJ/Hoglander and that we are tanking.  We need another high end D or C in the pipe, and another goalie prospect.  JB is getting better at his job with time - ironically the path he set us on by not going back with the same exact team (would have cost us JV and Hoglander/Podz and picks and Sutter or Pearson to make it work) - was the right one - but in the end could cost him his job.   I'm not sure we will make the playoffs next year either - if we don't for sure he's gone, but am sure this team will be something else in a couple of years - and if that happens, i hope we all can thank JB for at least putting us on the path that gives us a chance to contend, and not one of mediocrity which for sure we'd be on if we shoe horned all three into the lineup.   We won't know how these contracts will age - so far how's Calgary doing anyways? 

 

If we miss next year - get a new GM - i expect it will be similar to when MG came.   We all know that was Burkes and Nonis's team. 

Edited by IBatch
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17 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I think your point about Calgary is bang on. If body language means anything it looks like Johnny Hockey wants out. IMHO Vancouver has far more potential. Benning has drafted far better than Calgary. 

 

Both of us have been around long enough to understand the history of this franchise. More often that not one has to think previous managements went to the Province each morning to get their direction for the day. Now with social media management has to deal with another influencer. The current management group has been sensitive to these forces to a certain degree. I suggest the lateness of the rebuild was due to a less than coherent cry for one more shot at a CUP back in 2012-13. All this aside I think Benning has done a decent job with another opportunity in the next draft to pick up a couple of top end players. Likely a top 10 pick.

 

Staying the course is a hard job for Benning to hold on to. Lots of pressure and many value judgements on potential and existing talent. Significant money decisions on who and how much to pay. Benning and Green have to live this 24/7 while we as fans pass uniformed judgements. All I have to do is make sure I have a beer ready in case Jake scores. :)    

Absolutely.   I'd give JB a B overall ... decent, not bad above average are the grey areas between great and garbage and i'm sure most on here aren't part of the verbal extremes.    I'm just happy he's got the core this far.   What happens next for sure will define his legacy, for better or worse. 

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Absolutely.   I'd give JB a B overall ... decent, not bad above average are the grey areas between great and garbage and i'm sure most on here aren't part of the verbal extremes.    I'm just happy he's got the core this far.   What happens next for sure will define his legacy, for better or worse. 

Not Great Ok GIF by Sky España

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7 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Sorry.............but what are 'PLAYOFFS" ????

Do a google search for Canucks,  playoffs, last season. Not all that long ago.

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7 hours ago, IBatch said:

Absolutely.   I'd give JB a B overall ... decent, not bad above average are the grey areas between great and garbage and i'm sure most on here aren't part of the verbal extremes.    I'm just happy he's got the core this far.   What happens next for sure will define his legacy, for better or worse. 

Most people aren’t extreme at all I find... a few folks just use those types straw man arguments to make them seem so by responding to their posts in ludicrous fashion to try to farm “likes”.

 

I personally give Benning:

B in amateur drafting 

C in pro evaluation/trades/signings

D in cap management and allocation 

F in overall results and wins

 

Guess how many GMs with a career average of less than .500 have jobs 5 years into their tenure?  Just Jim.

 

The next longest tenured loser is Dorian who was hired in 2016 and isn’t allowed to spend any money.

 

Chayka and Botterill are other recent losing GMs who were both hired long after Benning and aren’t with their teams.  Numerous other guys have been hired and fired since Benning and have had better records.  The market indicates Benning has gotten a longer leash with less results than any of his peers.

 

 

Edited by Provost
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58 minutes ago, Provost said:

Most people aren’t extreme at all I find... a few folks just use those types straw man arguments to make them seem so by responding to their posts in ludicrous fashion to try to farm “likes”.

Don't b mad cuz ur like:post ratio is <1.0 bruh :bigblush:

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1 hour ago, Provost said:

Most people aren’t extreme at all I find... a few folks just use those types straw man arguments to make them seem so by responding to their posts in ludicrous fashion to try to farm “likes”.

 

I personally give Benning:

B in amateur drafting 

C in pro evaluation/trades/signings

D in cap management and allocation 

F in overall results and wins

 

Guess how many GMs with a career average of less than .500 have jobs 5 years into their tenure?  Just Jim.

 

The next longest tenured loser is Dorian who was hired in 2016 and isn’t allowed to spend any money.

 

Chayka and Botterill are other recent losing GMs who were both hired long after Benning and aren’t with their teams.  Numerous other guys have been hired and fired since Benning and have had better records.  The market indicates Benning has gotten a longer leash with less results than any of his peers.

 

 

Botterill gave 9mil to Skinner after one season of 40 goals not to mention other messes.

 

Chayka really wasn't even qualified for the job. He wasn't some methodical numbers guy, only that he wanted to be seen as such and the Coyotes got fooled.

 

In contrast to these two, JB has not made any real big mess. His biggest screw ups are signing bottom 6 guys to long term high dollar contracts and Eriksson, which didn't even matter until last off season since those contracts didn't get in the way until when it came to retaining Tanev and Toffoli. Signing Eriksson was to satisfy the owner's mandate to make the playoffs with the Sedins, so can't really blame him for that.

 

Other than cap management and allocation, I'd up his letter grades: A for amateur scouting  and B- for pro evaluation/trades/signings. That's why JB still has a job while Botterill and Chayka don't.

 

I don't think we have ever had a GM that finds NHL players in every draft, let alone superstars. Look no further than Calgary and Edmonton to learn how hard it is to draft stars when you don't have a top 3 pick. Edmonton would be in shambles if they didn't get lucky in 2014 with 3OA and 2015 with 1OA. If JB doesn't get A for amateur scouting, then I don't know who does? Tampa gets A+ for me but I can't think of any other team that finds an NHL player year in and year out.

 

When you evaluate signing aspect of JB's performance, you have to include RFAs like Horvat, Boeser, Motte, and Gaudette. If he didn't sign Roussel and Eriksson, his UFA signings would also be considered pretty good. Criticize Myers all you want but he is a big RHD who can move the puck and score points and he is nothing like Eriksson who was useless almost immediately. Beagle is sacrificing his body on the PK and on the 4th line. Is 3 mil a bit much? Yes, but we would have had to pay around 2 mil for veteran 4C like Beagle anyways so that's a saving of 1 mil, big deal! 

 

I agree that his cap allocation hasn't been great, which led to losing Tanev and Toffoli. Had Roussel been signed to a three year deal, we could have fit at least one of Toffoli or Tanev. He could have also try to find a way to dump some salary, for example, trading Virtanen (saves 2.25 mil) and Gaudette to dump Roussel (4 mil) but he wasn't able to. 

 

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1 hour ago, khay said:

Botterill gave 9mil to Skinner after one season of 40 goals not to mention other messes.

 

Chayka really wasn't even qualified for the job. He wasn't some methodical numbers guy, only that he wanted to be seen as such and the Coyotes got fooled.

 

In contrast to these two, JB has not made any real big mess. His biggest screw ups are signing bottom 6 guys to long term high dollar contracts and Eriksson, which didn't even matter until last off season since those contracts didn't get in the way until when it came to retaining Tanev and Toffoli. Signing Eriksson was to satisfy the owner's mandate to make the playoffs with the Sedins, so can't really blame him for that.

 

Other than cap management and allocation, I'd up his letter grades: A for amateur scouting  and B- for pro evaluation/trades/signings. That's why JB still has a job while Botterill and Chayka don't.

It isn’t a “try” development league, it is a “do” and win league.

You can parse and try to explain away things, but the record is unavoidable.  No GM with a consistent losing record gets to keep their job nearly this long.  Benning has been given years longer than guys with similar records.

 

The GMs that get an A for amateur scouting are the ones who are picking late and are also consistently getting significant contributors in the later rounds.  Benning hasn’t done that.  You only get so much credit for finding good players at the very top of the draft when the entire range is a matter of picking a guy a couple spots earlier or later than his expected draft ranking.  Missing on half of those top picks (Virtanen and Juolevi) who would be taken way later in a redraft happened doesn’t earn you top marks.

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Benning has drafted 7 players with 90 + games in the NHL overall 13 players total that have played more than 1 game in 7 drafts.

the regime before in 7 draft years Drafted 6 players with 90 plus games and 14 players total with more than 1 game in the NHL now Benning's numbers could go up as his picks mature. B on drafting, D on signings, Cap management -FFFFFFFFFF. The goal is to win the cup . Trade any vets that you can, and send Loui to Utica 

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19 hours ago, Provost said:

Most people aren’t extreme at all I find... a few folks just use those types straw man arguments to make them seem so by responding to their posts in ludicrous fashion to try to farm “likes”.

 

I personally give Benning:

B in amateur drafting 

C in pro evaluation/trades/signings

D in cap management and allocation 

F in overall results and wins

 

Guess how many GMs with a career average of less than .500 have jobs 5 years into their tenure?  Just Jim.

 

The next longest tenured loser is Dorian who was hired in 2016 and isn’t allowed to spend any money.

 

Chayka and Botterill are other recent losing GMs who were both hired long after Benning and aren’t with their teams.  Numerous other guys have been hired and fired since Benning and have had better records.  The market indicates Benning has gotten a longer leash with less results than any of his peers.

 

 

Drafting is way higher than a B. It's likely the only reason why Benning still isn't fired for the failures. That being said, this has always been a long term thing in the making. The curse of having Gillis as your GM. And the hilarity of people wanting him back.

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54 minutes ago, vannuck59 said:

Benning has drafted 7 players with 90 + games in the NHL overall 13 players total that have played more than 1 game in 7 drafts.

the regime before in 7 draft years Drafted 6 players with 90 plus games and 14 players total with more than 1 game in the NHL now Benning's numbers could go up as his picks mature. B on drafting, D on signings, Cap management -FFFFFFFFFF. The goal is to win the cup . Trade any vets that you can, and send Loui to Utica 

Ya, the difference isn't as stark as folks make it out to be.  Benning has also traded away lots of draft picks even when we weren't in a winning window.  Getting to pick players in the top 10 is a lot more sure to get legit NHL players than picking at the very end of the 1st round because you are winning the President's Trophy and making long playoff runs.

Take last year's draft as an example... take away a top 10 pick and it is entirely likely that we don't get any NHL games out of the players we selected, or at least no meaningful contributors.

In no world of rational opinion can folks still be pinning our lack of success on Gillis like some are.  It is 7 years since he was fired.  

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15 hours ago, DSVII said:

Never tell Benning the odds. He's shopping as we speak.

 

 

 

 

 

Likely hockey trade - doesn’t have the cap space to add without moving money.  Likely a move in preparation for next season.  

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