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Tories Motion to Declare China's Action Against Uighurs as Genocide Passes 266-0, 72 Abstained (Cowards)


DonLever
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6 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/18/clues-to-scale-of-xinjiang-labour-operation-emerge-as-china-defends-camps

 

"Since 2014"

 

https://thenarwhal.ca/harper-government-ratifies-controversial-canada-china-foreign-investment-deal/

 

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/conservatives-spike-facebook-comments-critical-of-china-deal

 

"The deal with China has caused some internal dissent within the party, with some arguing it is unbalanced and concedes too much to the Asian superpower. The agreement was ratified by the Conservative government last week, with little fanfare.

“You sold us out to China, you will be remembered by Canadians and this treaty if passed will come up at every federal election for the next 30 years, you have made us a serfdom, time for the Cons to retire,” wrote Facebook user Paula Moffatt, before administrators deleted her remarks from a page with a photo of the prime minister."

 

Seems like whatever issues against the China deal were scrubbed by the Harper government. It's not at all a stretch to imagine Harper would not condemn the genocide because of this deal that he had worked so hard on since 2012.

 

 

So why didn't Trudope complain in 2014?

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10 minutes ago, DonLever said:

Trudeau himself has not said China's action against the Uighurs was genocide.   And today the Liberal Cabinet abstained from the vote.

 

"However, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has so far stopped short of calling the treatment of the Uighurs a genocide, calling the term a "loaded word" that should be used carefully".

I don't think using the word 'genocide' is helpful or entirely accurate. What China is doing to Uighurs is not exactly genocide by the very definitions of the word, but definitely violations of human rights. They're not the same thing.

China absolutely needs to be held accountable though. There are lots of reports of mass rapes and other unspeakable things going on in their concentration camps.

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1 minute ago, Heretic said:

So why didn't Trudope complain in 2014?

I think we know where your bias lies here.

 

I'm not trying to defend Trudeau on this one. I think he should absolutely take a stance against China. That being said, it seems like he's Harper 2.0 on China.

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58 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

If this leads to a ban on Chinese goods are you prepared to pay double the prices for goods? Not that I would mind, because it would create jobs here. I'm just worried about the tit for tat thing. Yes, I want them to stop murdering. But when the majority of goods you buy originate from China. You are going to need time to gear up production from North America/Central/South America/ Europe/India/Africa and the Middle East and the rest of Asia and New Zealand and Australia. 

 

Their ship is sinking already. The relative skyrocketing of wages there means that the production of the crap is going to go up one way or another.

 

Companies have been shifting production to other, cheaper places for the last few years. Apple requesting/moving production to Vietnam being one of the more recent super-high profile ones.

 

Regardless of how much they want to artificially manipulate their own currency for export reasons, the piper must always be paid.

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1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

I think we know where your bias lies here.

 

I'm not trying to defend Trudeau on this one. I think he should absolutely take a stance against China. That being said, it seems like he's Harper 2.0 on China.

Exactly - all about money and not rocking the boat - I dislike most politicians - doesn't matter what party.

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Just now, Heretic said:

"

The U.N. Genocide Convention, to which the CCP is a signatory, defines genocide as “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.”

These acts include:

“(a) Killing members of the group;
“(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
“(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
“(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
“(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

A July 15 article in Foreign Policy confirms that China is engaging in all of the above practices with its Uighur population."

It's definitely heading in that direction is all I'm saying.

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9 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

I think we know where your bias lies here.

 

I'm not trying to defend Trudeau on this one. I think he should absolutely take a stance against China. That being said, it seems like he's Harper 2.0 on China.

Whoever pays the bills hold the leash.

 

Left, Centre, Right... it doesn't seem to matter because they all eventually get bought at some point.

 

The current political tribalism is just stupid. Call out stupidity no matter who is responsible, and then you begin to have more reasonable foundations for democracy. Calling out everything "the other team" does just because they aren't "your team", and never calling out "your own team" because that's unpatriotic (or whatever) is absolutely ridiculous and I don't understand it.

 

Politicians are nobody's friends. They are snakes, weasels and 99.7% of the time interested in something other than 'doing good for people'. And it doesn't matter whose team they are on.

 

Edit: I'm going to add an addendum to that last bit. Politicians will absolutely do "what is good for the people" so long as they themselves benefit in some way as well.. and sometimes they push that bit too far too. See: Every single f***ing scandal in the last forever years be it Lyin' Brian, Jean Poutine, Glen Clark (just to name a few in Canada), and all the little stuff that doesn't make a scandal.

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1 minute ago, brownky said:

Their ship is sinking already. The relative skyrocketing of wages there means that the production of the crap is going to go up one way or another.

 

Companies have been shifting production to other, cheaper places for the last few years. Apple requesting/moving production to Vietnam being one of the more recent super-high profile ones.

 

Regardless of how much they want to artificially manipulate their own currency for export reasons, the piper must always be paid.

Pretty much this.

China's GDP is still rising due to massive government spending (never sustainable) and from fudged numbers on the local level.  

There are tons and tons of zombie companies where they're more or less surviving due to government money... once the money runs out... watch out. 

 

Jobs are only in China because it's cheaper.  Their technology is still behind their competitors and still not the most efficient.  But if it's cheaper, jobs will still be there.  Once wages increase or competing countries set their own incentives, jobs will start trickling out... as it has been happening. 

 

Once China cross the rubicon where their house will start collapsing... watch out Taiwan.  They'll probably start an armed conflict to deflect from domestic troubles.  

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Just now, Lancaster said:

Pretty much this.

China's GDP is still rising due to massive government spending (never sustainable) and from fudged numbers on the local level.  

There are tons and tons of zombie companies where they're more or less surviving due to government money... once the money runs out... watch out. 

 

Jobs are only in China because it's cheaper.  Their technology is still behind their competitors and still not the most efficient.  But if it's cheaper, jobs will still be there.  Once wages increase or competing countries set their own incentives, jobs will start trickling out... as it has been happening. 

 

Once China cross the rubicon where their house will start collapsing... watch out Taiwan.  They'll probably start an armed conflict to deflect from domestic troubles.  

I'm glad we all can agree on China (the government) being an enemy, despite any political differences all of us as CDC users, may have.
 

I'm honestly disappointed that Trudeau didn't take a harder stance on the Uighur issue(s). But he also has to worry about the two Michaels that are held in captivity. It's been years now.

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1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

If this leads to a ban on Chinese goods are you prepared to pay double the prices for goods? Not that I would mind, because it would create jobs here. I'm just worried about the tit for tat thing. Yes, I want them to stop murdering. But when the majority of goods you buy originate from China. You are going to need time to gear up production from North America/Central/South America/ Europe/India/Africa and the Middle East and the rest of Asia and New Zealand and Australia. 

 

Yes i'd 100% pay more for locally nationally or north american made goods.  As I stated we, the entire G8/G20 are essentially enablers allowing China free reign as long as they have nukes and are the worlds factory.

 

Luckily, the worlds largest growing middle class and the advent of the internet is allowing China to lose that role as wage growth HAS to happen, people are fleeing the rural countrysides and factory lives looking for something better.

 

Vietnam, Malaysia, Bangladesh and India are now usurping that role from China and bleeding that power away with it.

 

28 minutes ago, DonLever said:

Trudeau himself has not said China's action against the Uighurs was genocide.   And today the Liberal Cabinet abstained from the vote.

 

"However, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has so far stopped short of calling the treatment of the Uighurs a genocide, calling the term a "loaded word" that should be used carefully".

Because Trudeau is a nimby flopper who floats wherever the peoples attention is.  Luckily we're in a minority situation 

 

14 minutes ago, Heretic said:

So why didn't Trudope complain in 2014?

For the same reason the previous government didn't either.  Doesn't make for good optics with the business community.

 

Plus he's a floating nancy content to do whatever the current social issues tell him to

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2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

I'm glad we all can agree on China (the government) being an enemy, despite any political differences all of us as CDC users, may have.
 

I'm honestly disappointed that Trudeau didn't take a harder stance on the Uighur issue(s). But he also has to worry about the two Michaels that are held in captivity. It's been years now.

That's the line where the PRChina made itself really plain. When Meng Wenzhou (or however) was arrested on our own treaty obligations with the US (whether one agrees or not with the principle or execution of that treaty, it's still signed and ratified and effectively international law as far as I'm aware) and China 'suddenly' detains two Canadians because reasons as hostages... that's when PRChina really crossed over. It isn't the treatment of the people inside their own borders that the poli's actually care about. We've seen that song and dance before, countries can usually do whatever so long as they don't let it bleed into "our world" as it were. But if the offender does something that upsets 'our' apple cart in some way, then it becomes the pretext and justification.

 

If "we" wanted to really throw some gas on that fire, Recognize Taiwan. We would be the first "G-anything" nation to do so.

 

That would be a hell of a political BBQ. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but... wow.

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Also, if people out there really do want to stick it to PRChina, don't buy stuff made there.

 

If it says it's made there, put it back / don't add to the online cart. It can almost certainly be found elsewhere for probably a bit more money and will be better quality anyway.

 

Or you might not need it at all. I started my little protest a couple years ago and haven't noticed any quality of life change aside from not giving Jeff Bezos more of my money, because Amazon has turned into an overpriced dollar store. In fact it's probably better, because I buy way less garbage cluttering my house and what I do buy is of much higher quality.

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1 hour ago, Lancaster said:

Hopefully this is more than just words.  I want to see action.  

If anything, Canada should just welcome anyone with a HK passport to immigrate here.  

You want to really hurt China, think how much it would hurt of suddenly half a million resident from HK with all their assets just up and re-settled here.  With more capital mean more investment in local industries.  More highly educated workforce means better productivities and a higher skilled workforce to compete globally.  

 

I hate to sound racist.... but I definitely prefer HKer than mainlanders.  Even most of my family from China originally feels the same.  

The problem with the bolded part (which I actually do generally agree with) is that you won't know if they are "new immigrant HKers" or pre-handover HKers.  At least with the BNO, that was an easier demarcation, because eligibility was limited.  The ccp and its puppet administration in HK have been actively "changing blood" by the HK government's policies allowing the flooding HK with these "new immigrants", much in the same way as the ccp flooded indigenous populations in Tibet and XJ with Han people, in efforts to dilute the resistance to the government and to push indigenous culture and cultural values out of existence.

 

The other part of the equation is - sure we could attempt to deal the ccp a serious blow in terms of the HK brain drain and HKers relocation of assets, but who's to say that a significant portion of those HKers won't actually be "new immigrants to HK" (ie. mainlanders who moved south to HK after '97), people like Mang Man-chou of Wahwai fame who would just use it as an opportunity to flood Canada with capital and voting power for purposes of strengthening the ccp's economic hold here and building up "united front" influence?

 

As a 2nd generation Canadian of Cantonese descent with an HKer wife, I agree with your sentiments, and I would hardly call it racist as we're all the same race - but I think it's more of a preference driven by familiarity of cultural norms, for which HKers share our values a lot more closely than mainlanders do. 

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24 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

She wouldn't happen to be Bernice Liu, would she?  :P

Yes. Her dad's name is Terry and he's a friend from beer league hockey.

 

During Terry's time here, there was an ongoing debate in the local hockey community about whether he was a worse goalie, or referee. The consensus was, you'd rather have him as a ref, because then he'd be lousy for both teams equally...

 

Great guy, though. As is his brother Steve, who AFAIK, is still a rink rat at the arena here. Never met Bernice herself, but I remember her being the big star of the local Dance Academy when my daughter was just starting out....

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