Can someone tell me what is happening with the real estate market here?

[Jester13]

6 minutes ago, Sean Monahan said:

The way I look at it is this:

 

My parents bought their first place in 1987/88 I believe it was. A townhouse in Surrey for $65K. At the time their combined incomes were about $80K per year (mom was an RN, dad was a stone mason). Even on a single income they would’ve been buying that place (a 3Br townhouse) for about 165% of their annual income. In 1993 they bought my childhood home, a detached house in a desirable part of North Delta, for about $290K. My dad had become a police officer since buying the townhouse so their income had improved. Not sure what he made at the time but I think it was about $60K per year. So they were buying a detached home at roughly 300% of their combined annual incomes. They saved money snd my dad did masonry work on his days off but they also had three kids in that time span. 
 

I’m looking at buying a one bedroom condo that’ll cost me about 600% of my annual income and it’s in Langley, so farther east than their first place (farther from Vancouver of course). Even if I had my dad’s job (the higher earner of the two) this condo would cost about 300% of the modern day annual income for a police officer (without overtime). My second place will definitely not be a detached home like my parents- theirs sold for $1.2 million sight unseen. 
 

Again, not impossible, but it’s an incredibly different picture than it was even 30 years ago. 

I still agree, times have certainly changed. And now an RN can make $80k/year and a police officer average of $86k per year, so suddenly wages are double and a couple like your parents can bring in $160k/year. You're looking to buy a place of your own for that much, but it's just you, from the sounds of it, so, yeah, it's going to be different than decades ago. I get it, the dollar doesn't stretch as far for housing these days, but I still stand by my argument that "young people are not f&%$ed" like everyone says they are. 

 

Here's something else that has changed... many people don't sell their first place when they move up the housing ladder; instead, they rent it out. Times have changed, but if young people learn how to adapt then they'll be just fine. 

[Sean Monahan]

Just now, Jester13 said:

I still agree, times have certainly changed. And now an RN can make $80k/year and a police officer average of $86k per year, so suddenly wages are double and a couple like your parents can bring in $160k/year. You're looking to buy a place of your own for that much, but it's just you, from the sounds of it, so, yeah, it's going to be different than decades ago. I get it, the dollar doesn't stretch as far for housing these days, but I still stand by my argument that "young people are not f&%$ed" like everyone says they are. 

 

Here's something else that has changed... many people don't sell their first place when they move up the housing ladder; instead, they rent it out. Times have changed, but if young people learn how to adapt then they'll be just fine. 

Yep I agree with all that. Even with modern police and nurse’s wages, that place my parents bought would cost about 660% of the annual income I think? I thought I’d pointed out the difference in housing cost vs a single income in 1993 against 2021 as well though. 
 

 

As for the bolded, that’s been my plan all along and  why I want to keep my sale price on the lower end. By the end of this year I’ll be making about another $8k per year and in 5 or so years I hope to be around the $100K number (want to follow in the old man’s foot steps). I also want to live somewhere more rural with land (outside the lower mainland) so that works in my favour. I save every bit of money I can, don’t live beyond the basics (other than having a dog) , earn income outside my day job, and work with a financial planner on a road map. I don’t think you’re acknowledging just how much harder it is than our parents’ generation. But yeah, I agree that there’s a defeatist attitude amongst the (our?) generation. It’s somewhat understandable considering this is a generation that’s dealt with, among other things: the 08 GFC, a generation ahead of them that practically invented consumer debt, that same generation choosing to not retire and continue working instead, COVID, etc. 
 

My hope is that some of the WFH/remote working stuff we’ve seen from COVID remains permanent and people can move out of the urban centres. I’d be out of here in a heartbeat if I had a job that allowed me to. 

[Jester13]

5 minutes ago, Sean Monahan said:

Yep I agree with all that. Even with modern police and nurse’s wages, that place my parents bought would cost about 660% of the annual income I think? I thought I’d pointed out the difference in housing cost vs a single income in 1993 against 2021 as well though. 
 

 

As for the bolded, that’s been my plan all along and  why I want to keep my sale price on the lower end. By the end of this year I’ll be making about another $8k per year and in 5 or so years I hope to be around the $100K number (want to follow in the old man’s foot steps). I also want to live somewhere more rural with land (outside the lower mainland) so that works in my favour. I save every bit of money I can, don’t live beyond the basics (other than having a dog) , earn income outside my day job, and work with a financial planner on a road map. I don’t think you’re acknowledging just how much harder it is than our parents’ generation. But yeah, I agree that there’s a defeatist attitude amongst the (our?) generation. It’s somewhat understandable considering this is a generation that’s dealt with, among other things: the 08 GFC, a generation ahead of them that practically invented consumer debt, that same generation choosing to not retire and continue working instead, COVID, etc. 
 

My hope is that some of the WFH/remote working stuff we’ve seen from COVID remains permanent and people can move out of the urban centres. I’d be out of here in a heartbeat if I had a job that allowed me to. 

I commend you for your plan and hard work, as it certainly isn't the easiest thing to do. It may not seem like I'm acknowledging that it's much harder these days - as I completely agree that it is - but it's because I instead choose to focus on the fact that it's still possible, so it's just how I choose to focus my perspective. My wife and I are in our mid-30s now, and we certainly have it harder than my parents, but my parents also didn't have it easy, with the 80s interest fiasco, recessions, etc. Our first home may not be a house, but it sure is rewarding, nonetheless, in that all of our hard work has paid off. We love our new home, and if we ever choose one day to buy another home then it'll certainly be an upgrade over our current place. But, I doubt we'll ever bother getting a house, as we love our condo here on the island (on a golf course), and our next goal is to buy some land on a fishing lake on Pender Island, or somewhere on V Isle, and build a small getaway. 

 

But here's the thing, you're doing everything right, in that you're planning, living within your means, and finding ways to make more money. This is what many young people are not doing. They're spending money like it's going out of style, racking up debt, and then complaining that they can't get ahead and that it's society's fault and the changing times. At what point does personal agency come into play? 

[KoreanHockeyFan]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

I commend you for your plan and hard work, as it certainly isn't the easiest thing to do. It may not seem like I'm acknowledging that it's much harder these days - as I completely agree that it is - but it's because I instead choose to focus on the fact that it's still possible, so it's just how I choose to focus my perspective. My wife and I are in our mid-30s now, and we certainly have it harder than my parents, but my parents also didn't have it easy, with the 80s interest fiasco, recessions, etc. Our first home may not be a house, but it sure is rewarding, nonetheless, in that all of our hard work has paid off. We love our new home, and if we ever choose one day to buy another home then it'll certainly be an upgrade over our current place. But, I doubt we'll ever bother getting a house, as we love our condo here on the island (on a golf course), and our next goal is to buy some land on a fishing lake on Pender Island, or somewhere on V Isle, and build a small getaway. 

 

But here's the thing, you're doing everything right, in that you're planning, living within your means, and finding ways to make more money. This is what many young people are not doing. They're spending money like it's going out of style, racking up debt, and then complaining that they can't get ahead and that it's society's fault and the changing times. At what point does personal agency come into play? 

I find this personal agency argument to be a little weak, because if you agree with this theory, you have to ask yourself why millennials and Gen Zs are less personally responsible. Bad parenting? 

 

Or perhaps, our society sets up a lot of people for failure? Especially lower income groups. 

 

With the rise of the Internet and social media, I'd say from my generation (kids growing up in the 90s) to the present, kids have been bombarded with advertisements/marketing on how to look cool and what to buy. The modern economy depends on young people to spend and take on debt. Just think about how your property value's going to do when the economy tanks because people suddenly stop spending and become rational, financially savvy people (e.g. look at Japan's savings rate and their stagnant economy). For our economy to function and for people to have jobs, there needs to be a large amount of people who spend beyond their means. It's just how things have evolved into a bunch of unintended consequences resulting from a long history of govt. policy decisions. 

 

Did I mention education? Oh my god it's terrible. I spent 4 years of undergrad learning how to write 20 page papers when I should have been learning how to prepare for my current job - luckily co-op saved me, but I couldn't believe how my school's co-op program was so terribly marketed. I reluctantly got my grad degree because I need my $30,000 piece of paper to prove to employers that I'm not stupid when I actually learned basically nothing new in my grad program. Don't get me wrong, I'm free of student debt, I love my current job and it pays well for my age, but what I'm trying to point out is that the school system doesn't prepare kids on how to manage their finances, nor does it encourage kids to acquire employable skills. 

 

Yes, there are tons of people who whine too much and don't take enough personal responsibility, but the arguments those same people make against how our decision-makers at the top don't provide enough support is one major reason why personal responsibility is lacking - it's an endless cycle. Suffice it to say, make your personal responsibility argument, but I think it's too convenient to just point the finger at the individual when there's a huge backdrop of societal problems which cause that lack of personal responsibility you're referring to. 

[taxi]

5 hours ago, Jester13 said:

 

It's even more difficult if you're making 60k a year and you don't have a significant other. If you or others are trying to buy a place alone and making that much per year, then you might want to re-evaluate things. Maybe try investing your money into something more feasible. Remember, the housing market is an investment, not a right. Further, saving 15k/year for five years, alone, turns out to be 75k. Buy the entry level condo and suddenly you're paying less than rent and building equity. Save for another five or ten years, find a significant other, keep living within your means, yada yada. Building your way up is not easy, and it's certainly different than years past, and it takes time and sacrifice, but we don't live in the 70s and 80s anymore. Thinking you are entitled to be able to buy a house all by yourself while making 60k per year is what's out of touch. 

No one's saying it's not possible. However, it's very hard for anyone in this generation to do it. And you can say that we should just look towards other "investments", but in North America the vast majority of wealth has been accumulated via home ownership, and that avenue is now cut off. 

 

There's also far more to a home than an investment. If you rent, you're at the mercy of the housing market, evictions, shady landlords, etc...It's all good to say just rent, but then what happens when you get evicted and have to move your family once every couple of years. What kind of life is that for a child? Potentially new schools/friends. And yes, I do think stable housing should be a right for hard working people. The government should be focused around policies that benefit all people, especially the working middle class, and not just special interest groups or the existing wealthy. It's part of the social contract. When someone devout their life to working hard in a profession that benefits society, society should benefit them back.

 

Let's also be real, it's not people with a family income of $60k who are being shut out of the market. That was the reality 10 years ago. Now it's dual income families, where both make $100k/year. I know many couple with a combined income of $200k, who are struggling with affording a tiny condo. The jump between condo and even townhouse is then massive. The standard of living has been knocked down several steps.

 

 

[Gurn]

I started at B.C. Ferries in 1996, deckhands were making  $19.18 per hr

retired in Nov 2020                      deckhands are making      $29.18

About 50% more

Gas 1995 was .58 per liter

Gas now      $1.44.9  per

245%  more.

 

 Not even close.

 

 

[kingofsurrey]

My family wages have increased 100% over the years....

My family home has increased 500% over the years...

 

It is very unfortunate what has happened to the young people of our province.  Wages have not kept up. Home prices have skyrocketed.

[Jester13]

I'm glad we can all agree that it's difficult yet possible at the same time to get ahead.

 

@KoreanHockeyFan, I'm a left-centrist, but I firmly believe that it's the personal agency argument that Conservatives believe in that's missing in society, as it's what drives people to success, so I do agree with you that society is creating this problem, as we're teaching our children that there are barriers all over the place for them, rather than teaching them how to kick a$$ in the world.

 

@taxi, if you know couples making a combined income of $200k a year and they're struggling to pay for a tiny condo then they're 100% doing something wrong, and that's on them, for who else should be to blame? 

[Russ]

1 hour ago, kingofsurrey said:

My family wages have increased 100% over the years....

My family home has increased 500% over the years...

 

It is very unfortunate what has happened to the young people of our province.  Wages have not kept up. Home prices have skyrocketed.

Yea unfortunately your family home has gone up 500% and so has everyone elses and pretty much unless you want to downgrade, you're just shifting over essentially.  I have no damn clue how gen Z will ever afford a home in Vancouver/Toronto/NY/California/etc.  Yea maybe out in the boonies of Ft St John or Kitimat or somewhere, but Fraser Valley-Vancouver is unaffordable at this point. Its even pushing and hard for millenials at this point if you're not in the market already. 

 

1 hour ago, gurn said:

I started at B.C. Ferries in 1996, deckhands were making  $19.18 per hr

retired in Nov 2020                      deckhands are making      $29.18

About 50% more

Gas 1995 was .58 per liter

Gas now      $1.44.9  per

245%  more.

 

 Not even close.

 

 

Not to mention food, home price vs wages (which is a big one), car insurance, vehicles, etc.  Gone are the days where 1 parent works and 1 parent stays home, finances are just too tight now to do that.

[taxi]

14 hours ago, Jester13 said:

I'm glad we can all agree that it's difficult yet possible at the same time to get ahead.

 

@KoreanHockeyFan, I'm a left-centrist, but I firmly believe that it's the personal agency argument that Conservatives believe in that's missing in society, as it's what drives people to success, so I do agree with you that society is creating this problem, as we're teaching our children that there are barriers all over the place for them, rather than teaching them how to kick a$$ in the world.

 

@taxi, if you know couples making a combined income of $200k a year and they're struggling to pay for a tiny condo then they're 100% doing something wrong, and that's on them, for who else should be to blame? 

Whoever let the situation get to the point that a tiny condo costs $750k?

 

Edit. It's clear you have no idea what's happening with the market. Why condo in a good building is selling at over $1000/square foot. For $750k you're looking at 700 square feet or less. Realistically if you want something big enough for two people and a kid, that's starting at $1000000. Yes you can buy a place out in PoCo for a bit cheaper. Enjoy the 1 hour+ commute each way, on top of the 60-80+ hour job is takes to have a $200k household income.

Edited March 10, 2021 by taxi

[AriGold]

On 3/7/2021 at 6:16 AM, GetFocht said:

We looked as far out as Hope. 800,000 for anything sizeable and decent. 

 

 

When you find something let me know, I’m a home inspector.

[Russ]

7 hours ago, AriGold said:

When you find something let me know, I’m a home inspector.

I was going to do that for my next house but at the same time half the time these homes are sold in a matter of 48 hours, hard to even get an offer on them let alone home inspector subjects haha!  You're on my list after you mentioned it in another thread.

[GetFocht]

9 hours ago, AriGold said:

When you find something let me know, I’m a home inspector.

Sorry you're unemployed.

[AriGold]

13 minutes ago, GetFocht said:

Sorry you're unemployed.

Sorry ?

[GetFocht]

14 minutes ago, AriGold said:

Sorry ?

Every place we've seen is no subjects. It was a joke to infer no one is getting home inspections. 

[AriGold]

Just now, GetFocht said:

Every place we've seen is no subjects. It was a joke to infer no one is getting home inspections. 

Oh, yeah I'm flying. 3 condos Monday, 3 condos today and 3 condos tomorrow. Thursday and Friday are open currently. 

 

Mostly been doing pre-offer inspection at this point. Still very busy as there isn't enough inspectors in the lower mainland, only around 250 of us for 30,000 realtors.

[taxi]

12 minutes ago, GetFocht said:

Every place we've seen is no subjects. It was a joke to infer no one is getting home inspections. 

I just purchased. I had to go no inspection. Most places had 3-10 offers and sold within 4 days of showing. All subject free. You would see 2-3 people at each place get an inspection. So they were happening. Most of the inspectors we booked up and couldn't do last minute inspections. 

[Jester13]

14 hours ago, taxi said:

Whoever let the situation get to the point that a tiny condo costs $750k?

 

Edit. It's clear you have no idea what's happening with the market. Why condo in a good building is selling at over $1000/square foot. For $750k you're looking at 700 square feet or less. Realistically if you want something big enough for two people and a kid, that's starting at $1000000. Yes you can buy a place out in PoCo for a bit cheaper. Enjoy the 1 hour+ commute each way, on top of the 60-80+ hour job is takes to have a $200k household income.

I'm well-aware and informed on the housing market, and I've also fully agreed with the sentiment that things are crazy with the market, and that it's not the same as it once was 30 or 40 years ago (or since the Olympics, for that matter). But, rather than ignoring the meaning behind my posts, maybe try to pick up what I'm putting down. I've clearly been responding to the sentiment that someone posted earlier that "young people are f$%#ed." They're not. The world is a different place, and it's much more difficult to get a detached home right away, but the path to get there is still feasible, and it happens every day for young people. That's all. 

[4petesake]

There’s an article on cbc.ca regarding New Zealand’s efforts to deal with the same problem. I couldn’t copy their  link so here is one through Reddit.

 

I have also included this from the comments section. It seems like a reasonable attempt to begin to deal with the issue.

[JM_]

13 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

There’s an article on cbc.ca regarding New Zealand’s efforts to deal with the same problem. I couldn’t copy their  link so here is one through Reddit.

 

I have also included this from the comments section. It seems like a reasonable attempt to begin to deal with the issue.

 

There are some interesting ideas here... but I just can't see Canada ending foreign ownership, too much of our economy right now is tied into real estate deals.

 

IMO we need gov't to engage and encourage developers far more than we have in new types of housing projects. We're just scratching the surface when it comes to co-op housing potential.