[Speculation] Teams Calling on Schmidt and Motte

[Ghostsof1915]

Dahlin, Reinhart and a 1st would do it.

 

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, Alain Vigneault said:

For what it's worth, I'm happy to keep Motte and Schmidt.  But if offers come along that make sense or are beyond their value, it's crucial we pull the trigger.  A lot of players can come in and do what Motte does.  Less so for Schmidt but he's also replaceable.

 

Development time is key but with our competitive timeline being pushed back by 2 years, we don't necessarily have a need for picks to develop straight away.  According to the experts on this board, Lind/Gadjovich/Woo are all studs in the making so we should be fine.

So using your logic, wouldn't this mean that Motte wouldn't be as valuable as you are claiming? Why would anyone want to pay for a player that can be replaced by "a lot of players"?

Edited March 10, 2021 by Dazzle

[J.I.A.H.N]

21 minutes ago, mll said:

Benning just said he would like to extend Pearson.  Doubt they are looking to trade him.

 

If they want to protect Myers they might want to extend Benn.  Hamonic/Edler are unlikely to want to sign to be exposed.

 

Green just said they see Gaudette as a winger.  Canucks will need a C3 for next season.  Maybe that’s Sutter.  He wears a letter and the team was surprised by losing leaders like Tanev, Markstrom last off-season.

 

Well, if there is no movement, there will be no improvement!

[Dazzle]

Just now, janisahockeynut said:

Well, if there is no movement, there will be no improvement!

I like the players, honestly. But I have to question the direction of this team at this point, if they are not making changes. Are they expecting Stanley Cup results from these existing players?

[Tom Sestito]

Just now, oldnews said:

That is one instance where I'd read that in more ways that one - ie not simply straight shooter Benning.

 

First, if a buyer wants to rent Pearson, indicating an intention to re-sign him - is the poker approach to his market value.  Ie he's a 20 goal scorer, Stanley Cup Champion who plays a two way, playoff game, etc, etc.....ie the price won't be a giveaway for any pick they can get.

 

I also think it's important to guage the need and potential demand in the market.  When you look at the teams in the north, arguably there are a few that could use / might need winger scoring.  Toronto, for example, has Thornton, Kerfoot, Mikheyev, and Vesey at LW.... will they be healthy at the TD though - and would an upgrade make sense regardless.  If they sustain in injury - and the market they're buying from is limited, Benning could enjoy some real leverage.

Edmonton - beyond Draisaitl - has Ennis, Shore, Neal... That is weak.  The if there, though, is whether they remain a playoff team....I could see them needing to buy if they have any hope of advancing if they make the playoffs - they continue to get paltry/next to no secondary scoring from their wingers....

 

Second - you are sending an open ended message to Pearson's camp - as opposed to telegraphing an intent to move on.  If no market for Pearson emerges, you haven't burned bridges if you can bring him back at a reasonable, short term.

 

I can't honestly say that I have a read on which way the franchise leans with Pearson - but one of the exceptions with Benning where I don't necessarily take statements like that at face value.

They may sincerely feel he makes more sense as a re-sign at reasonable terms - to continue to play with Horvat - than the value of a longshot pick represents.

 

Personally, I'd move on from Pearson - take the pick, bank the cap, and take my chances with Podkolzin and the rest of the youth - while perhaps bringing in a cheap covid free agent placeholder to compete with the youth....

 

My guess though, would be that the franchise is probably hedging on that - as opposed to simply being committed to Pearson/ uninterested in renting him.

I said the same as the above on HFB. 

 

However, this is a guy who has looked awful offensively basically the calendar year of 2020 and this season as well. 

 

I always thought he was more of a 3rd liner on a good team but it's really proven apparent. He scores goals in three ways.

1. He stands in front of the net and gets a tip or a rebound. 

2. Rush goals with a powerful shot top shelf.

3. EN goals. 

 

That's basically it. There's no creativity to his game. He is what he is - a passenger. But, I think he's a good passenger. I think Green has described him as low maintenance and you never see him dog his effort defensively or get caught watching. You need a guy like that. 

 

You need a guy like that when you're competing for a cup - not to actually keep and risk a contract on based on his last 12-15 months of play which have been.. a bit worrying offensively. He's the one no-brainer guy to trade at the TDL this season. I don't think there's even a debate to it. Re-sign him in the summer if he wants to come back.

 

 

[Noseforthenet]

Schmidt hasn't been the greatest fit, but he has been better recently. There's a danger here though. Edler goes, Schmidt goes as well, our left D gets looking decidedly thin past Quinn Hughes. Jordie Benn likely won't be re-upped. Oof, our D has already sucked. I don't wish to see it unravel anymore. We need to be building it up!!!

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Convincing John said:

That is a valid point, however, what makes you think motte has reached his ceiling? He is only 25. He has done nothing but trend up. 

Motte turns 27 tomorrow.  I'm pretty sure he's fully matured at this point.

 

My bad, he's 26 tomorrow.  But still think he's fully matured at this point...

Edited March 10, 2021 by Elias Pettersson

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, Tom Sestito said:

I think it is a choice to a certain extent. I think any playoff team in the league would want Edler but he's obviously a picky guy (deservedly so, he's earned it and I want him back here in free agency). I think any team - provided they have the capspace - would take Hamonic and Benn as 6-8th defenders for a playoff run and those guys always get a pick (3rd to 5th). They're relatively hamstrung by the NTC's that all these guys have as well. Like, we all know Hamonic would only waive for three places and they'd probably have to hardball him by telling him they're bringing up Woo and will bench him the rest of the season. (Unrelated but I think they should call up Woo/Rathbone and run them as a pairing at the NHL level this season because I think they're both good and play well together). Pearson is the only guy with no protection - he has to be sent packing. Sutter would fetch a similar return to Hamonic and Benn if he was retained but again, NTC so who knows where he wants to go if anywhere. I think if they can get assets for three players at this TDL, it would be a success. Pearson is the automatic, one of the expiring D, and then find a way to grab a third asset (Edler or Sutter or other)

 

The team has talented youth but the expectations need to be fair. Everyone would agree Hoglander has been fantastic this year, but he's not a top six forward yet. I think a fair expectation for Podkolzin would be similar to what you've gotten from Hoglander this season. Do you expect Podkolzin to come in and be more productive on both ends of the rink than lets say Pearson? I don't - I expect something similar. Do you think Hughes is going to be able to handle matchups against an opponents top six next season? I don't. There's been talk of insulating these youth with veteran leadership and intangibles for years. What's most important is they need to be insulated by players that help them achieve improved results on the ice. If you make a Motte for a 1st and 3rd trade and flip the late 1st + Eriksson for a top four defensive D to pair with QH, I just think that these are unquestionably good moves. 

 

I'm not saying that it's a failure if they don't move all five pending UFA's and other guys like Motte, Virtanen or whatever. However, I think it's reasonable to expect them to be able to get a few assets.

yeah - my hope would be that they manage to move a few for picks.

 

And I think they have the types of veterans that teams need.   Pearson - (already posted regarding this) - could fill a need on a few of the leaders in the North. 

 

Sutter would easily be the best hard minutes shutdown center available in the north -  and there a a number of top heavy, score-all-the-goals builds - that could seriously use him.   Toronto, for example has been riding Tavares like a rented mule in the past few playoffs - high dzone starts, penatly killing -  I consider that a poor gameplan when you spend a franchise center that way (and the results have been less than impressive.....  I wouldn't have a guy like Marner taking all the risks of/as a primary penalty killer either.  They, however, seem committed to their approach, so who knows if Malhotra will get through to a Dubas type (Babcock certainly could not).  Whether they'd buy a defensive center is hard to predict.  Edmonton - I would think would identify their need - and particularly with a coach like Tippett and the kinds of builds he had in Arizona - I would think they'd see the use of a high end shutdown and penalty killing center (I'm just not sure I'm that sold on that team....

The D - Benn and Hamonic - I agree - teams do tend to load up on veteran D depth - for good reason - and how healthy teams remain might play into the demand as well.

 

What also factors in - when you look at who Ottawa has to sell - Stepan, Anismov and Dzingel expiring forwards, Gudbranson and Reilly expiring D....(however, in the case of Stepan they spent a 2nd to acquire him, so whether that was to retain or flip, who knows....likewise they spent a pick on Gudbranson - whether they want to re-sign him or rent/flip him to get their pick back, who knows - but the buying and selling markets might be fairly limited.

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

So many things in the air.......

 

As I said a minute a go........no movement, no improvement

Well Dazzle you are right, we go no where if we don't improve

Improve by size, intensity, age, etc

 

UFA's like Lowry, Duclair, Wennberg, Hamilton, add to the team

Not saying we are going after anyone of them

but we need to be in the position to so, if something comes to us

 

Any 1st's or 2nd's we recoup, are important in that, it allows us to fill holes internally

and just important, is when the holes are filled, then we can be the team to move a 1st later on

when we can get a player that completes us, as did Tampa with Coleman

 

It is a chess match, and not a drag race, sometime moves that are made this year,

will impact us down the road

 

IMO, lowering cap and picking up early picks, are what eventually win cups

"IF" the GM spends the assets wisely, and makes good signings

 

In saying that......late 2nds are the same as early 3rds and don't bring in the 

1st round picks that drop.

Edited March 10, 2021 by janisahockeynut

[Tom Sestito]

6 minutes ago, oldnews said:

yeah - my hope would be that they manage to move a few for picks.

 

And I think they have the types of veterans that teams need.   Pearson - (already posted regarding this) - could fill a need on a few of the leaders in the North. 

 

Sutter would easily be the best hard minutes shutdown center available in the north -  and there a a number of top heavy, score-all-the-goals builds - that could seriously use him.   Toronto, for example has been riding Tavares like a rented mule in the past few playoffs - high dzone starts, penatly killing -  I consider that a poor gameplan when you spend a franchise center that way (and the results have been less than impressive.....  I wouldn't have a guy like Marner taking all the risks of/as a primary penalty killer either.  They, however, seem committed to their approach, so who knows if Malhotra will get through to a Dubas type (Babcock certainly could not).  Whether they'd buy a defensive center is hard to predict.  Edmonton - I would think would identify their need - and particularly with a coach like Tippett and the kinds of builds he had in Arizona - I would think they'd see the use of a high end shutdown and penalty killing center (I'm just not sure I'm that sold on that team....

The D - Benn and Hamonic - I agree - teams do tend to load up on veteran D depth - for good reason - and how healthy teams remain might play into the demand as well.

 

What also factors in - when you look at who Ottawa has to sell - Stepan, Anismov and Dzingel expiring forwards, Gudbranson and Reilly expiring D....(however, in the case of Stepan they spent a 2nd to acquire him, so whether that was to retain or flip, who knows....likewise they spent a pick on Gudbranson - whether they want to re-sign him or rent/flip him to get their pick back, who knows - but the buying and selling markets might be fairly limited.

 

 

Ottawa’s players available are way worse than ours. Like, it’s not even close.

 

You should read their boards opinions on a majority of the guys you mentioned. 

 

Like comparing Sutter and Stepan as an example - Stepan can’t do anything effectively in sheltered minutes. Stepan trade might have been the worst of every one made in the summer. Even if Sutter might be the worst playmaking center in the whole league and drags down his linemates production, he can at least eat minutes and play reliably in his own end if you give him limited ES minutes. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Tom Sestito

[oldnews]

18 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

So using your logic, wouldn't this mean that Motte wouldn't be as valuable as you are claiming? Why would anyone want to pay for a player that can be replaced by "a lot of players"?

yeah - everyone is 'replaceable' - but of course, the challenge/point is not to replace Motte with inferior depth - like Joakin Nordstrom or Dominik Simon...

 

"Fourth line" forwards matter - they make a significant difference - particularly in the present day/'modern' NHL - where you not only need depth that can play - but you need them to be able to handle elite scoring forwards defensively - which is no easy task.  Defending is arguably the hardes part of any sport - guys that excel as much as Motte does - are not easy to come by - particularly players that are as good a defensive forward as he is at an early stage of his career.   Those are players you target to acquire - not sell.

ie I'd much rather give up a mid round pick to poach Nick Paul from Ottawa than sell Motte for one.  I hope Dorion shares the 'asset management' perspective with those who'd sell regardless.

[AV.]

31 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

So using your logic, wouldn't this mean that Motte wouldn't be as valuable as you are claiming? Why would anyone want to pay for a player that can be replaced by "a lot of players"?

Stating that the team would be smart to take any offer of a 2nd (or more) for Motte =/= "Motte is worth a 2nd".  Reading is hard, I know.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Alain Vigneault

[oldnews]

21 minutes ago, Tom Sestito said:

Ottawa’s players available are way worse than ours. Like, it’s not even close.

 

You should read their boards opinions on a majority of the guys you mentioned. 

 

Like comparing Sutter and Stepan as an example - Stepan can’t do anything effectively in sheltered minutes. Stepan trade might have been the worst of every one made in the summer. Even if Sutter might be the worst playmaking center in the whole league and drags down his linemates production, he can at least eat minutes and play reliably in his own end if you give him limited ES minutes. 

Well - this is why I look at players myself as opposed to using Ottawa's message boards as 'information'.

 

Ie Stepan does not play "sheltered' minutes - that is just not a good or accurate take.  He's under 50% ozone starts, he's a secondary penalty killer, and he tends to be playing either hard minutes of doing the sheltering - of young forwards on his wing.  Nevertheless, he is simply not as good a shutdown center as Sutter - not even close - and no one will likely be looking to buy a 6.5 million tweener center, so I don't see him as as attractive a rental as a clear role player who kills his role - like Sutter does (who's also capable of scoring 20 goals in legitimately hard minutes).

I agree that it was a horrible deal for them though - to give up a 2nd to take on Stepan's 6.5 million of cap - bizarre deal - when imo they 'should have' done much better in the covid market...

 

Dzingel is a wild card  imo - who could command some real interest if he regains his game in Ottawa.  He could give Pearson a run for rental money.  The hope would be that there are more than one team with winger needs - and I think that is quite conceivable.

 

Gudbranson - we won't talk about his relative merits lol - but for example, if Toronto were to lose a Bogosian to injury - and prorated deadline cap being relatively negligible, they could use a Gud and consider him a better fit than Benn, for example, playing his off side.  I have no idea if Hamonic would agree to be moved, at all (and really, for the terms he signed at, it's hard to expect him to).   As much as I was happy with Benn's earlier stretch when he stepped in for Hamonic as Hughes' partner, that's not the Benn we've seen in general....I'd have sold Benn in the offseason if possible and re-signed Fantenburg- but I suspect there was no market for him.  In any event, thankfully to some extent, I'd say there are a number of teams in the north, that despite their early success this season, I would not consider to be team built to defend, or win playoff hockey- but whether they change course and start adding complementary role players that I think could really help those clubs - remains to be seen.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by oldnews

[Tom Sestito]

Stepan was awful in sheltered minutes last season, was he not?

 

 

[oldnews]

9 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Stating that the team would be smart to take any offer of a 2nd (or more) for Motte =/= "Motte is worth a 2nd".  Reading is hard, I know.

 

Hope this helps.

Maybe Motte isn't really injured.

 

Maybe he asked for a trade.

 

Makes you wonder.

Hope this helps.

[mll]

41 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Well, if there is no movement, there will be no improvement!

The team is playing better now that they’ve started to gel.  Benning might not want to disrupt that after how flat they came out from the off-season changes.

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, Tom Sestito said:

Stepan was awful in sheltered minutes last season, was he not?

 

 

"Sheltered" typically refers to young players who:

 

1) get high ozone starts to avoid them from getting overexposed in defensive situations in their own end of the ice, and

2) play with veteran linemates who can provide them the necessary support, particularly defensively.

 

Hughes -

1) getting very high ozone starts, and

2) playing with Tanev, (or Hamonic)

Would be considered 'sheltered'.

Or Hodgson, likewise, with high ozone starts playing with Higgins and Hansen = sheltered pump and dump.

 

Stepan last year;

46.8% ozone starts.

Played a lot of minutes with young wingers.

And was their 3rd penalty killing forward - behind Richardson and Grabner.

 

Not sheltered at all - but also, arguably, probably not really the best option to play those kind of minutes...

[Tom Sestito]

Yes. I agree with your definition. I was wrong - stepan played fairly difficult minutes last season.

 

He was $&!# in them tho

 

Relatively useless player either way

Edited March 10, 2021 by Tom Sestito

[AV.]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

Maybe Motte isn't really injured.

 

Maybe he asked for a trade.

 

Makes you wonder.

Hope this helps.

Ahh, another user who's desperate for my validation.  Something about imitation and flattery, I'm not sure...

 

Anyways, I typically use "makes you wonder" to prove a point in a comparison.  "Hope this helps" is used when I have step in and clarify/correct a point (such as your post).

 

Hope this helps.

[canuktravella]

20 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Maybe Motte isn't really injured.

 

Maybe he asked for a trade.

 

Makes you wonder.

Hope this helps.

 if motte demanded a tradehes be traded already he jammed his knee in early season action hes injured