Rebuild Starts now? (proposals) (Long read)

[BPA]

If the idea is to also trade Hughes, I would target NJ.  NJ is in the bottom 5-6 according to NHL Tankathon.   So they have a good chance to draft Luke Hughes.  A trade with Canucks can net all 3 brothers.  Would be a marketing ploy.

 

If NJ actually does draft Luke Hughes, maybe a trade like this...

 

Hughes + LE + 3rd = Smyth  + Holtz + 2nd

 

Or something along this line of thinking. 

 

I like Quinn, but this year has exposed his defensive lapses.

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Others have chimed in on your proposal so I'm not really gonna retread what they've said, I'll simply state that I think moving Hughes out would be a mistake. We've rarely had his breed of D come through this franchise, I think he's an essential part of driving this team's offense going forward. 

 

His defensive game is questionable at the NHL level, but at only 21 years old there's lots of room for improvement. Defense can be taught, he's got the intelligence to learn and the skating ability to be effective in his own end. Players with his offensive abilities are rarer than players who can simply play solid defense, I think he's worth being patient with. 

 

I'm not keen on throwing money at Hamilton, nor do I think we're likely to really be on his radar unless JB wants to throw massive term at him. I expect he'll stay in Carolina tbh, they're further along their competitive curve than we are at this point. Semin's dead cap expiring gives them enough to give him the raise he'll likely be asking for. And while I like Rathbone as a prospect, he's proven nothing at the NHL level and is just a prospect with potential at this point. 

You could be so right Coconuts (on Hughes)

But, I think regular season and playoffs are 2 different beasts

Hugh is built for the regular season

IMO, he got beat up pretty good in last years playoffs

and we did not go that far (better than expected!)

 

To me, it is all about net plus/minus,meaning his even strength plus minus, plus his pluses on the Powerplay

If at the end, you come out with a minus, or close to it, then you have a sparkly liability

(Looks good, but costs the team over all)

You are right , he is young, and could learn enough to get by, butthe 1st hit by a big man, could take him out for a long time

In the playoffs where the rules are different ......he gets exposed for his size

[IBatch]

another angle is to do a deal with Horvat and Miller... and the rest and build around guys BB and younger.   Would add some years to contending - then we'd be ahead of what has gone wrong on other teams ... or just leave it...

[J.I.A.H.N]

8 minutes ago, BPA said:

If the idea is to also trade Hughes, I would target NJ.  NJ is in the bottom 5-6 according to NHL Tankathon.   So they have a good chance to draft Luke Hughes.  A trade with Canucks can net all 3 brothers.  Would be a marketing ploy.

 

If NJ actually does draft Luke Hughes, maybe a trade like this...

 

Hughes + LE + 3rd = Smyth  + Holtz + 2nd

 

Or something along this line of thinking. 

 

I like Quinn, but this year has exposed his defensive lapses.

I though of NJ, and Smith....never though of Holtz though....interesting!

I honestly think our left side is set, for a long time......(Just my personal belief...still to be proven! LOL)

Having someone like Tryamkin, that can play both sides, can really change the line up, if he can slide up, 

while playing heavier teams.............

So, yes, NJ is an obvious target, I just could not see, a solid trade there..........maybe I am over estimating a Chychrun, Soderstrom return

I drool over it!............IMO, they will be Arizona's 1st pairing for along time in a couple of years

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

another angle is to do a deal with Horvat and Miller... and the rest and build around guys BB and younger.   Would add some years to contending - then we'd be ahead of what has gone wrong on other teams ... or just leave it...

Yes, they are getting older, but to be honest IBatch, you need some grizzly old vets to win the cup with.......Miller might be getting up there though

Honestly, if you were going to do that, I think you make that move in a couple of years...which is kind of counter productive to our objective

But, for sure you run the risk of them starting to decline, just as your core reaches their prime.

[J.I.A.H.N]

6 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

 

 

Buying a large group of UFAs next season is exactly what JB is trying to avoid. It is very expensive and often doesn't work out how you expect (players don't have chemistry etc) - look at Schmidt this season and times that by 4 key new players to the Canucks.

 

.

Just wanted to address this one by itself, Tram

 

Here is my thoughts on UFA's

 

Overall, I am not a big fan of bringing them in, but that is mostly based on our record of who we bring in

 

The truth is, we have either signed, low end, low ceiling guys, and put them in important spots

 

or we have signed guys that have a very short track record.

 

Loui only really have 1 season of #1 line stats, and was more a 2nd line, 2 way player before that

 

Both Hamilton and Lowry have a record of who they are...............

 

Personally, I think Lowry is a gem, and causes huge problems for teams with small defenses

 

Hamilton has just been good for a long time,,,,,,honestly, Carolina has no one to replace him

 

He certainly is top 10 in the league, if not top 5

 

I am not sure my proposed 8.5 Million will even come close to what he will demand in free agency

[JM_]

25 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

It is funny.......but every time I see Hughes or Pettersson get knocked down, or out muscled, I just see huge flaws in their games, in "BIG" games, like Stanley Cup finals

Now, you can't go around moving everybody out, but Hughes is the obvious one for me............his net plus/minus is never going to be good.

I just look at defenses around the league who have big men in front of their net, and ineffective we are at breaking through their boxing out of us

I want some of that ourselves, and also want players who can break that box down, down in tight, where most goals are scored from.

I guess I see Hughes in the vein of a guy like Karlsson, who simply skated out of trouble, which I think Hughes will be able to do more and more effectively as he gains experience and reads plays better. 

 

Petey really impressed me in the playoffs tbh, he learned how to get hit and keep moving, but he is small and needs a tough partner who can fight for that net front space, which I'm hoping his Podkolzin. Miller-Petey-Podkolzin could be a net front nightmare for our opponents. 

 

So I see these issues being solved with experience and/or from within. I see our major needs in the bottom 6 tbh, both in terms of a legit top 10 3C and then a few more smart money players to surround that guy like more Motte type deals. Easy to say, tho.

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

9 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I guess I see Hughes in the vein of a guy like Karlsson, who simply skated out of trouble, which I think Hughes will be able to do more and more effectively as he gains experience and reads plays better. 

 

Petey really impressed me in the playoffs tbh, he learned how to get hit and keep moving, but he is small and needs a tough partner who can fight for that net front space, which I'm hoping his Podkolzin. Miller-Petey-Podkolzin could be a net front nightmare for our opponents. 

 

So I see these issues being solved with experience and/or from within. I see our major needs in the bottom 6 tbh, both in terms of a legit top 10 3C and then a few more smart money players to surround that guy like more Motte type deals. Easy to say, tho.

 

 

Well, I am more inclined to agree with you about Pettersson than Hughes

I see Hughes being Karlsson light (if that is possible)

and now that Karlsson has put a few years in, his body is breaking down

because of all the pounding he took

I see it already in Hughes when there is a hard hitting game...its on his face

Again...there is regular season and then there is playoffs

It is what got Karlsson...additional games and different rules

 

As for Pettersson, as long as he stays away from the boards, as much as possible, he should be fine

Which is why he should remain a center..........its not that he won't be on the boards, but not as much

There by reducing risk of  being crunched.............I sure hope he can put on 10lbs on that frame

it will do him good

Edited March 25, 2021 by janisahockeynut

[Coconuts]

23 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

You could be so right Coconuts (on Hughes)

But, I think regular season and playoffs are 2 different beasts

Hugh is built for the regular season

IMO, he got beat up pretty good in last years playoffs

and we did not go that far (better than expected!)

 

To me, it is all about net plus/minus,meaning his even strength plus minus, plus his pluses on the Powerplay

If at the end, you come out with a minus, or close to it, then you have a sparkly liability

(Looks good, but costs the team over all)

You are right , he is young, and could learn enough to get by, butthe 1st hit by a big man, could take him out for a long time

In the playoffs where the rules are different ......he gets exposed for his size

The regular season and playoffs are definitely two different animals, you won't get any debate from me there. But as for Hughes being built for the playoffs or not, the lens I'd prefer to look at that through is whether our team as a whole is built for the playoffs. He did pretty well for being a rookie D playing at hockey's highest level, I think there's a place for him on a playoff team. I think things get a bit compounded when you've got too many smaller D in a D core though. Having him and Stecher gave us some problems against a larger Blues team, and obviously Vegas's relentless forechecking. But even then, while Stecher looked to be in over his head at times his battle level made up for some of his size disadvantage. 

 

A D core featuring Hughes and any number of Schmidt, Myers, Hamonic, Edler, Tryamkin, and Juolevi has other D of respectable size. There's also trades and ufa to consider, but I figure we'll be trying to address our holes more internaly going forward, if only to offset the increased cost of players like Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, Horat, and Miller over the next few seasons. Rathbone may definitely crack the roster over the next few seasons, the same can be said of Woo and maybe a few other D prospects. Rathbone's pretty solid at 5'11" and 190, which admittedly isn't much bigger than Stecher, but maybe he can pack on more muscle and still be an effective skater? If we can bring Tryamkin into the fold I think that'd immediately change the size dynamic of our D a bit, but we'll see. 

 

I also question how much of his defensive play is his skillset and how much of it is the questionable quality of our coaching. Particularly on D. There are plenty of smaller D who play effective games around the league, but only one of them has Baumgartner and Brown as coaches. I've mixed feelings on Green, but he's complicit as well. I think he could be a more effective player under different coaching staff. The same can be said of youth like Hoglander and Juolevi, who don't see much powerplay time, or ice time in Juolevi's case. 

 

 

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Well, I am more inclined to agree with you about Pettersson than Hughes

I see Hughes being Karlsson light (if that is possible)

and now that Karlsson has put a few years in, his body is breaking down

because of all the pounding he took

I see it already in Hughes when there is a hard hitting game...its on his face

Again...there is regular season and then there is playoffs

It is what got Karlsson...additional games and different rules

yeah thats a legit concern for sure. We need to get him a big scary partner.... hey wait... we have a giant Russian dude on the way  does anyone mess with Hughes with Nik nearby? I'd love to see those guys develop that kind of partnership.

 

 

4 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

As for Pettersson, as long as he stays away from the boards, as much as possible, he should be fine

Which is why he should remain a center..........its not that he won't be on the boards, but not as much

There by reducing risk of  being crunched.............I sure hope he can put on 10lbs on that frame

it will do him good

thats why I think Podz is such a key piece moving forward, he seems to love the hard areas already. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

The regular season and playoffs are definitely two different animals, you won't get any debate from me there. But as for Hughes being built for the playoffs or not, the lens I'd prefer to look at that through is whether our team as a whole is built for the playoffs. He did pretty well for being a rookie D playing at hockey's highest level, I think there's a place for him on a playoff team. I think things get a bit compounded when you've got too many smaller D in a D core though. Having him and Stecher gave us some problems against a larger Blues team, and obviously Vegas's relentless forechecking. But even then, while Stecher looked to be in over his head at times his battle level made up for some of his size disadvantage. 

 

A D core featuring Hughes and any number of Schmidt, Myers, Hamonic, Edler, Tryamkin, and Juolevi has other D of respectable size. There's also trades and ufa to consider, but I figure we'll be trying to address our holes more internaly going forward, if only to offset the increased cost of players like Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, Horat, and Miller over the next few seasons. Rathbone may definitely crack the roster over the next few seasons, the same can be said of Woo and maybe a few other D prospects. Rathbone's pretty solid at 5'11" and 190, which admittedly isn't much bigger than Stecher, but maybe he can pack on more muscle and still be an effective skater? If we can bring Tryamkin into the fold I think that'd immediately change the size dynamic of our D a bit, but we'll see. 

 

I also question how much of his defensive play is his skillset and how much of it is the questionable quality of our coaching. Particularly on D. There are plenty of smaller D who play effective games around the league, but only one of them has Baumgartner and Brown as coaches. I've mixed feelings on Green, but he's complicit as well. I think he could be a more effective player under different coaching staff. The same can be said of youth like Hoglander and Juolevi, who don't see much powerplay time, or ice time in Juolevi's case. 

 

 

Solid Post!

 

I agree, it is most likely to happen, pretty close to the way you have it.

 

I will just say, that IMO, Chychrun and Soderstrom + 2nd is greater than hughes...............over all...........meaning lower salaries, size, and net +/-, plus it fills a hole that we have in the future..........(Chychrun is at 4.6 Million for the next 4 years and Soderstrom will be on ELC for 3 years (925,000), I don't think you can over look things like that.

[J.I.A.H.N]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yeah thats a legit concern for sure. We need to get him a big scary partner.... hey wait... we have a giant Russian dude on the way  does anyone mess with Hughes with Nik nearby? I'd love to see those guys develop that kind of partnership.

 

 

thats why I think Podz is such a key piece moving forward, he seems to love the hard areas already. 

I agree with both comments Jimmy

My only problem with Tryamkin is age

That 4 years  does not look big now

But in 4 years, when Hughes is in his prime

Tryankin will be getting older

a problem? Maybe, maybe not!

I hope we find out!

[J.I.A.H.N]

@Jimmy McGill

 

Hey Jimmy.......just a after thought

But I see Chychrun as a young Edler with higher upside

He has 21 points already this year

and plays the most minutes in Arizona

I think that says alot

His net +/- is positive

Quinn's is not

[Jack Fig]

1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said:

I have always said that Canuck fans are foolish to get themselves married to certain players

 

I can agree with this. And the player that concerns me in this regard is #40. 

[singing chef]

Jan's proposal is well thought out.  imo IF, and BIG IF, anything like this can be accomplished, even to a degree, it will have to be with a GM other than Benning. With Benning having been around for quite some time, most of these signings/draft picks are his and it seems that he becomes quite attached to his players.  Ergo, it will take a different GM to see parts of the proposal come to fruition.

 

FWIW I'm a fan of much of this plan, and do believe a major shakeup of personnel is needed.  That includes management and coaching !

 

Stay safe everyone.

 

[Tyndall2]

13 hours ago, qwijibo said:

You can only retain on 3 contracts 

Every one of those players except Pearson has some sort of trade protection. 
 

Montreal won’t want Benn back. If they trade for a defenceman it’ll be for someone better than him 

Totally agree.  Montreal already let him walk and why would they bring him back if they too are in sight of missing the playoffs.  I don't think Edler will get that return.  He is old, slow and injury prone.  

[appleboy]

You do not trade a player like Petey or Hughes. Teams can wait 40 years and never land a player like Quin. 

 

You build around players like this. You find the right fit to offset their weaknesses.

 

Petey , Hughes , Bo , Demko and Boeser.  These are core guys.   Players to build around.

 

Miller , Schmidt , Myers , Motte and Hoglander are all keepers. Podkolzin looks like he has the potential to fill that power forward spot. 

 

Any player not on this list should dangled as trade bate.

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Solid Post!

 

I agree, it is most likely to happen, pretty close to the way you have it.

 

I will just say, that IMO, Chychrun and Soderstrom + 2nd is greater than hughes...............over all...........meaning lower salaries, size, and net +/-, plus it fills a hole that we have in the future..........(Chychrun is at 4.6 Million for the next 4 years and Soderstrom will be on ELC for 3 years (925,000), I don't think you can over look things like that.

Admittedly I don't know much about Soderstrom, and I haven't really tracked Chychrun. But if they're worth acquiring, it raises the question of why a team like Arizona would move two players, plus a second for Hughes alone. Now I've covered why I think Hughes should be retained, but he's also a single piece as you've mentioned. Arizona as an organization isn't in a position where acquiring Hughes alone is going to put them over the top, let alone make them a surefire playoff team. They're currently a middling team at best, a perpetually rebuilding/retooling team at worst. Wouldn't they be better served staying the course with their own youth the same way we likely would be? 

 

If making the trade helps our salary scenario, while giving us an additional D with potential who's cost controlled, what does it do for Arizona? It gives them someone to back up OEL, but doesn't Chychrun currently do that for them at soon to be 23 years old? And with 22 points in 33 games he's well on pace to setting a career high at age, he's actually not that far behind Hughes who's got 28 points in 37 games. Hughes broke 50 points as a rookie, I think he's capable of 60+, but Chychrun doesn't appear to be a slouch by any means. He's a larger player to boot, which seems to be part of what appeals to you, but it's also a reason for them to retain him. 

[Bad_BOI_pete]

17 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Ok, the first thing that I need to be clear about, is this is a 21/2 year Rebuild and should put us in position to compete by the 2021-2022 Season, and be top 10 the following season. It will also put us in a good position to continue to stock from within. 

 

The 2nd thing you must believe is that Benning and crew are one of the better scouting departments in the NHL. The next thing you must believe is that there will be alot of misses at the 2020-2021 Draft. No, this is not a liquidate for draft picks, but rather a sell off of redundant assets.

 

And lastly, yes there is a shocker!

 

So, as Billabong has posted in his "Blow up thread", which I agree the Canucks should do. The following players should be moved at this years TDL..................

 

Pearson...............................to Toronto @ 50 % for a 2022 2nd

Sutter...................................to Edmonton @ 50 % for a 2021 2nd 

Edler....................................to Toronto @ 50 % for a 2021 2nd

Benn....................................to Montreal @ 50 % for a 2021 3rd

Hamonic..............................to Winnipeg @ 50 % for a 2022 3rd

 

Why so high of returns. I simply believe that most teams are un easy on this years draft, and that combined with retaining 50 % of each players salary, elevates each pick by a factor of 1. The 2022's returns, are also devalued, albeit not by as much, because normally if a team has to wait, the return improves. All in all, this is my belief. I would also say, that after reviewing trades from past TDL's, these are fair returns. In some cases, they are less than what was paid for a lesser player. One could easily argue that Pearson, Sutter and Edler are all equal to Coleman, who went to Tampa for a 1st at last years TDL

 

Barclay Goodrow for Tampa's 1st

Andreas Athanisiou for 2X Edmonton 2nd's

Marco Scandella for STL 2nd and 4th

Brenden Dillion for Col 2nd and Wsh 3rd

Dylan Demelo for Winn 3rd

Blake Coleman for Van's 1st

Jack Campbell and Kyle Clifford for 2X Toronto's 3rds 

 

Generally I left the high end trades, where the return was for more with a greater return. I might also add that none of the trades had retention that I noticed. So again, I think with retention, these are reasonable returns.

 

So entering the summer, we have approx. 17 million coming off the books............................................We will also be dropping in the standings, because of the substanual loss of veterans. This will improve our own pick positions. (Forecast: to be a top 5 pick)

 

At the Expansion draft, Vancouver will deal with Seattle to take goaltender Braden Holtby, by adding Jake Virtanen and Michael DiPietro

Also at this time, Vancouver will be announcing a trade with Ottawa Senators.......Loui Eriksson + Adam Gaudette and a 2023 1st for a 2021 2nd

 

This will also decrease the Vancouver Canucks Budget by an additional 14.8 Million

 

This will leave the Canucks with approx. 31.8 million Dollars..........................the Canucks are NOT finished! 

 

If by this point you have not stopped reading....................Remember, Dream Big! Or don't dream at all!

 

The Canucks will then announce the signings of Pettersson 8 years @ 7,500,000, Hughes 3 years @ 6,500,000, and Demko 6 years @ 6,000,000. This will make a collective payout for 3 core players of 20 Million dollars, and leave us with approx. 12 million left .

 

The Canucks will then enter free agency with approx. 12 million left + Ryan Spooner 1.0 + Sven Baertschi's (2.2 M) 3.3 Million, which equals approx. a Total of approx 15 million

 

The Canucks will then announce the signings of 6 players

 

UFA .Dougie Hamilton = 8,500,000

UFA .Adam Lowry = 4,250,000

UFA Scott Wedgewood = 1,500,000

RFA Nikita Tryamkin = 2,250,000

RFA Vasili Podkolzin = 925,000

RFA Kole Lind = 1,250,000

 

In the biggest move of the Summer, the Vancouver Canucks Trade Quinn Hughes to Arizona for Jacob Chychrun, Victor Soderstrom and a 2022 2nd.

 

The move will save Vancouver approx 2,000,000 per year and will be used to cover Vasili Podkolzin and Kole Lind salaries.

 

It should also be noted that "IF" a deal is offered for either 1 of Tyler Myers or Nate Schmidt, the Canucks will make that move, if the offer is solid. 

 

These moves will be made to increase the size and aggression of the Vancouver Canucks, as well as the overall talent, of the present and the future.

 

Next 2 years Draft picks will be as Follows:

 

2021.............Van 1st (5th OA), Ottawa 2nd 34th OA, Van 2nd 37th,OA, EDM 2nd, TOR 2nd, Van 3rd, Montreal 3rd, Van 4th, Van 5th, Van 6th, Van 7th (11 picks)

2022.............Van 1st (16th OA), Van 2nd 48th, Arizona 2nd, TOR 2nd, Winn 3rd, Van 4th, Van 5th, Van 6th, Van 7th (9 picks)

 

TDL 2022-2023 Out

Roussel (3 Million)

Summer Out

Beagle (3 Million)

Luongo Recapture Penalty (3 Million)

 

2021-2022 Roster

 

Miller          Pettersson      Boeser                                         Chychrun (22)       Hamilton (27)                                     Demko (25)

Hoglander     Horvat        Podkolzin                                       Juolevi (22)          Myers (31)                                          Wedgewood (26)

Motte             Lowry          McEwen                                        Rathbone (21)      Schmidt (29)

Roussel         Beagle           Lind                                                        Tryamkin (26)

 

Notable Prospects..............Soderstrom (20), Woo (20)

Possible Notables..............Gadjovich(22), Lockwood (22) Jasek(23), Silovs(20)

 

My Roster at Cap Friendly is $79,500,000, so pardon my math, but I am going with Cap Friendly numbers

 

 

Remember, this is next years roster, and I said playoffs next year, top 10 in 2 years...............Hey Remember! Dream big or go home!

I appreciate the effort you put in your post. But I did notice a trend in your signings, I think you are overvaluing what a career year adds to a players salary, more or less it doesn't effect it to the point they are paid as the player they just were. The last 3 years together are effectively what is considered, look at william Karlsson, brad marchand, Brayden Schenn, schiefle etc.... all had career years, inconsistency drove down the value of thier contracts.

 

 

 

Thats a massive overpayment for Lowry, who historically hasn't even come come close to those numbers before. I'd would rather take a chance on wennberg who has been successful as a scoring center and a defensive center. we could realistically get wennberg at 3*3 and his puck possesion metrics are solid.

 

You are massively undervaluing petterson, 8 year contracts don't come with a 7.5m salary unless your a UFA or a RFA who had mediocre results(schiefle,schenn,Karlsson). Your basically saying petterson is worth 5.5M*3

 

You are overvaluing Hughes who has shown he is a mortal man without EZ points from EP40'S 100+MPH one timer. Hughes is more likely worth 5.5M*3

 

Demko Has had a great year, but hasn't been consistent. He has 11 sub .891 games this year  and 13      .935+ games 4 of which came against ottawa. so which goalie is he? the last 2 games he's been the .891 goalie. I don't think He's been consistent and proven enough to earn a 6*6 He will likely get a 3-4 year deal between 3.5-4.3.

 

not a fan of trading di-pietro, even if it means we  get to compete this year.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Petey_BOI

[Bad_BOI_pete]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

You do not trade a player like Petey or Hughes. Teams can wait 40 years and never land a player like Quin. 

 

You build around players like this. You find the right fit to offset their weaknesses.

 

Petey , Hughes , Bo , Demko and Boeser.  These are core guys.   Players to build around.

 

Miller , Schmidt , Myers , Motte and Hoglander are all keepers. Podkolzin looks like he has the potential to fill that power forward spot. 

 

Any player not on this list should dangled as trade bate.

if gretzky can be traded so can hughes.