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[Discussion] Offseason changes


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Thank god JB is running the team and not us lol.   The thing we need to do is sign our RFAs to deals that make sense for the team and for them.   That's about it.   Not sure what Seattle will be like,  but will say that  Vegas gets the top position, followed by any of us, CAL, or EDM the way things stand now.   Seattle... who knows.    I'm not at all worried about any of the CALI teams, what a truly weak division that is this year.    We can beat up on them next season, and we already have a good track record against the central.    Stay the course.    If we sh!t the bed next year, then yes maybe it's time to strip it down and go a different direction.     

 

It's easy to look at rosters and say this guys better then this guy.  It's an entirely different thing to rip a team apart and expect new players to just adjust right away.   

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22 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

the only reason we buyout LE is if JB somehow Aquires another Offseason fleecing, and the 2M in cap space is needed.

otherwise it extends his dead space for another year which isn't ideal.

 

 

A buyout after Eriksson's signing bonus is paid will result in a $2M cap saving in year 1 + $1M cap hit in year 2 for a net saving of $1M.  Also a cash net cash savings of $1M.  Your telling me they don't do this?

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The first off-season change I'd make is to lose the assistant coaches Baumgartner and Brown. Repeatedly it has been shown that what they are coaching just isn't working. Our PP is streaky at best and normally not effective. The D has its moments, and yes there are definitely some personnel issues...but even with that there just isn't a good plan here. 

 

Second change is (and this is presuming that Benning is his normal ineffective self at the TD) is to try and rid ourselves of Sven, Beagle and Rousel. I'd say LE, but that contract is all but untradeable...so why bother proposing something wild. The other two have less impacts, so maybe they would be easier to work around. Stipulating that Seattle doesn't grab either one (I could see Rousel over Beagle), then I'd look at sending both away, with some retention offered in. Since we can only have 3 contracts in retention, and Luongo's cap hit remains for one more year after this,  two of these three contracts to go would be a combination of foreseeably being able to get rid of and getting rid of a player that has little value. Myers has some value and has his days where he is not too bad, plus as a R hand D he hasn't looked bad at all when playing with Juolevi. 

 

Last bridge to cross would be trying to convince one or two of EP40, Demko and Hughes to bridge contracts. Say 3 years, 5-6M each, with the last year at 8.5M. 

Without going into huge amounts of research for who is available, who might be nice to have, etc...these are the main steps. 

Untouchables for me: EP40, Boeser, Bo, Podkolzin, Hoglander; Hughes, Juolevi, Rathbone; Demko. The rest of the team could be had for the right price. That's my core.

Main target is: R hand D to fit with Hughes; Good 3rd line centre that can handle the two-way game necessary for success; 3rd/4th line winger capable of both approx 10 goals AND able to calm down players such as Reaves, Tkachuk and Kassian

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I'd like it if they kept Hamonic, I think he's gotten better as the games go on, and he even seems to have built some chemistry with Hughes. He provides some physicality the Canucks are missing. Any chance Ferland returns next season? 

 

Walk - Hawryluk, Teves, Baertschi

Trade - Sutter, Pearson, Virtanen, Benn

Re-Sign - Edler (you know they will), Rafferty, Demko, Pettersson, Hughes, DiPietro, Jasek, Lind, Gaudette, Hamonic

Buyout - Eriksson

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7 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Cirelli is one of TBLs "untouchables". They will not trade him, nor Kuch, Point, Hedman, Sergachev, Cernak or Vas.

 

TBL are not looking for 1st round picks because their window is now. They will spend 1st rounders to keep their core together, shed unnecessary players and contract excellent but cheap help - ideally vets nearing retirement that are willing to get paid league minimum for a chance at a Cup (guys like Eric Staal, Luke Schenn, maybe even someone like Jordie Benn all on $750k). Look for them to sweeten the deal with Seattle so that they select one of their big contract guys like Palat or Gourde. They will likely have to buy out a couple of contracts too (maybe Johnson & Rutta).

completely forgot about the expansion draft, but they could trade one or two of these untouchables for players not exempt to the draft (podkolzin and hughes). For Tampa Bay the world is thier oyster, if they made some sort of podkolzin hughes for cirelli Sergachev Trade they could keep thier top6 and top 4 intact improving thier defence without sacrificing the future. The value of ELC of podkolzin may be enough to justify a 1/1 swap with cirelli for a team to keep their top performing players together for another 3 years.

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5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Thank god JB is running the team and not us lol.   The thing we need to do is sign our RFAs to deals that make sense for the team and for them.   That's about it.   Not sure what Seattle will be like,  but will say that  Vegas gets the top position, followed by any of us, CAL, or EDM the way things stand now.   Seattle... who knows.    I'm not at all worried about any of the CALI teams, what a truly weak division that is this year.    We can beat up on them next season, and we already have a good track record against the central.    Stay the course.    If we sh!t the bed next year, then yes maybe it's time to strip it down and go a different direction.     

 

It's easy to look at rosters and say this guys better then this guy.  It's an entirely different thing to rip a team apart and expect new players to just adjust right away.   

dude, your so spot on.

 

I hope we sign EP40 and Hughes to long term deals, they have been very consistent and thier offensive chemistry is undeniable. bridge deals are for teams that are in win now mode, And I agree with benning that we are at least two years away.

 

as for deadline deals, I agree with you we can't just trade half the team away. not only will it hard for the team to adjust to 6 new faces, It's highly unlikely that we able to compete with all the teams on signing the UFA's we  have our sights on. It's incredibly difficult for many reasons and one thing for sure is the expansion draft will asuredly increase the demand for 3C centers TOP 4 defenceman and to a lesser extent top 6 wingers. all three of these positions are area's of weakness for our team.

 

The demand for these types of players might be so high that resigning Pearson Edler sutter and Hamonic might be the correct thing to do. When Seattle starts trading these players to other teams we could play along and join in on the fun. at the very least we will likely find a home for the players we don't see in the long term future, and the demand of these type of players will drive up thier value. last exspansion draft Las Vegas proved how valuable that strategy was.

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On 3/24/2021 at 9:29 PM, Doogie said:

What changes are you hoping for this season in terms of players, coaching staff and front office? 

 

Let's start with the coaching staff. 

Green - Release

Over the past few years I haven't really seen the team improve (aside from the bubble anomaly) nor any individual player improve due to Green's coaching. You couldn't really make an argument for any one on the team really, Hughes, Pettersson, Boeser, Horvat, Demko, Hoglander essentially came in as advertised, they were expected to be good if not great. You would expect Gaudette and Virtanen to improve under Green's tutelage, however, as we've seen this season they've regressed and everyone seems to believe it's the players own doing but let me tell you something, it's not . As long as Green is behind the bench I just don't see this team competing for the cup anytime soon if at all. 

 

Baumgartner - Release (No explanation needed)

Brown - Release (No explanation needed)

Clark - Re-sign  (No explanation needed) 

 

Moving on to Benning and Co. 

Aside from the scouting department I think everyone needs to go. Year-over-year Benning and Co. have just made excuses for their failures and Benning doesn't seem to want to accept any responsibility. It's been 7 years and we aren't even close to contending for the cup. The only good thing that's come from his tenure is the drafting and one, two, maybe three trades but everything else has been terrible. It's time we move on from Benning and Co. or at the very least hire a new GM and move Benning to head the scouting department. 

 

Players

I've left ??? as areas needed to improve upon. Anyone not mentioned means I'd like for the Canucks to move on from. 

 

Miller - Pettersson - Boeser

Hoglander - Horvat - Podkolzin

??? - ??? - ???

Motte - ??? - ???

 

Gaudette

MacEwen 

Michaelis

Hawryluk

Lind 

Gadjovich


Potential targets bottom 6 

(UFA) Lowry (C)

(UFA) Coleman (LW)

(UFA) Laughton (C) 

(UFA) Goodrow (RW)

(UFA) Armia (RW)

 

Hughes - ???

??? - Schmidt

Juolevi - Myers

 

Rathbone

Chatfield

Rafferty

(RFA) Tryamkin

 

Potential Targets D 

(UFA) Savard

(UFA) Larsson

(UFA) Murray

 

 

 

Disagree 100% on your assessment of Green. 

A coach can only explain to his players what he expects out of them and show them in practices how he wants it done. He sets game plans and prepares his team as best he can for that plan. It's up to the players themselves to absorb and learn the information presented to them and to execute it. The coach cannot force them to do what they need to in order to succeed. It is not Green's fault that Virtanen shows up to camp year after year out of shape, It is not Green's fault that Gaudette can't put glorious chances in the net because of lack of shot accuracy. The players themselves have to work 365 days a year at their craft. It's why they get payed millions of dollars to play the sport. If players refuse to put in the work then it is they who have to be gone.

 

I agree 100% on your assessment of JB.

The make-up of this team lies squarely on the shoulders of JB. We are where we are because of what JB has drafted and assembled through free agency. There is little doubt that he's drafted well and, yes, he's had great success at the event but, it is also a fact that he's displayed a lack of good judgement when it comes to free agency. Too much money and term has been handed out to veteren players who haven't provided an adequate return. Eriksson, Myers, Roussel, Beagle, Sutter, Ferland, Edler are all performing below their paychecks with Ferland not even playing for the foreseeable future, if ever again. Losing a player like Toffoli due to indecisiveness is inexcusable. This is the very definition of poor management. Not getting value for money being spent and losing good players for stupid reasons. Unfortunately, this has, by association, been put on Green's shoulders too which, I think, is unfair. We need a GM who can make concrete decisions without so much hesitation and knows how to get good value when handing out free agent contracts. Your above lineup questions should serve as further example of JB's lack of effectiveness. Six years at the helm should have better results and less open roster spots one would thin. Bottom line, JB needs to go.

 

Hockey is a game of three attributes. Compete, skill and speed. The team with the best balance of all three is going to win. We have plenty of skill and speed but we sorely lack in the compete category which is where grit, character, sacrifice, playing a complete game, and a will to better one's self lie. Players like Horvat, Petey, Boeser, Miller, Motte, Hoglander, and Juolevi have all worked hard to get themselves to where they are while Virtanen, Gaudette, Macewen, Beagle, Roussel, Edler, Myers, Sutter, Schmidt, and, to some extent, Hughes have become liabilities. That's far too many players on the negative side of the scale. It needs to be addressed and until it is, we will remain a team in limbo.

 

Unfortunately, I have little to no hope that any changes I want to happen in the near future will.

These would involve firing JB and using, at least, one of our star players to address our woeful defense and bottom six to better balance our team.

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20 minutes ago, komodo0921 said:

Disagree 100% on your assessment of Green. 

A coach can only explain to his players what he expects out of them and show them in practices how he wants it done. He sets game plans and prepares his team as best he can for that plan. It's up to the players themselves to absorb and learn the information presented to them and to execute it. The coach cannot force them to do what they need to in order to succeed. It is not Green's fault that Virtanen shows up to camp year after year out of shape, It is not Green's fault that Gaudette can't put glorious chances in the net because of lack of shot accuracy. The players themselves have to work 365 days a year at their craft. It's why they get payed millions of dollars to play the sport. If players refuse to put in the work then it is they who have to be gone.

 

I agree 100% on your assessment of JB.

The make-up of this team lies squarely on the shoulders of JB. We are where we are because of what JB has drafted and assembled through free agency. There is little doubt that he's drafted well and, yes, he's had great success at the event but, it is also a fact that he's displayed a lack of good judgement when it comes to free agency. Too much money and term has been handed out to veteren players who haven't provided an adequate return. Eriksson, Myers, Roussel, Beagle, Sutter, Ferland, Edler are all performing below their paychecks with Ferland not even playing for the foreseeable future, if ever again. Losing a player like Toffoli due to indecisiveness is inexcusable. This is the very definition of poor management. Not getting value for money being spent and losing good players for stupid reasons. Unfortunately, this has, by association, been put on Green's shoulders too which, I think, is unfair. We need a GM who can make concrete decisions without so much hesitation and knows how to get good value when handing out free agent contracts. Your above lineup questions should serve as further example of JB's lack of effectiveness. Six years at the helm should have better results and less open roster spots one would thin. Bottom line, JB needs to go.

 

Hockey is a game of three attributes. Compete, skill and speed. The team with the best balance of all three is going to win. We have plenty of skill and speed but we sorely lack in the compete category which is where grit, character, sacrifice, playing a complete game, and a will to better one's self lie. Players like Horvat, Petey, Boeser, Miller, Motte, Hoglander, and Juolevi have all worked hard to get themselves to where they are while Virtanen, Gaudette, Macewen, Beagle, Roussel, Edler, Myers, Sutter, Schmidt, and, to some extent, Hughes have become liabilities. That's far too many players on the negative side of the scale. It needs to be addressed and until it is, we will remain a team in limbo.

 

Unfortunately, I have little to no hope that any changes I want to happen in the near future will.

These would involve firing JB and using, at least, one of our star players to address our woeful defense and bottom six to better balance our team.

I liked all what you said about this except TT being inexcusable.   Isn't that a little counterintuitive?  And Myers, he's worked just fine since we've signed him, earned his paycheque and let's just be happy it wasn't Trouba.  We can't look back at TT for at least another year and decide whether that was a mistake or not.   Same with Tanev for that matter.   Cant diss JB for signing UFAs and then diss him for not in the same post at least, that's always a crapshoot.  LE for sure is his biggest mistake...Buffalo has done the twice now with Okposo and Skinner lol.  At least he seems to have got the memo.    Not much extra for Beagle, AR dud, Sutter is close when he plays given what he does (fyi Stastny wad Vegas fourth line C last year and Johnson was waived in TB this year), part of me can't wait to see folks crying over missing Sutter next year if he's not re-signed.  And he was an RFA/UFA years bought so not quite the same.   Ferland was a whiff, but who knows mahbe we'd have liked him .... not that it counts against the cap because it doesn't really.   So far LE is JB anchor .... followed by a medley of placeholders.   Who's filling Sutters spot anyways?  Nobody so expect more of the same.   Maybe this time UFAs come not for the money but a little of winning too who knows.   Myers ... dumb to diss that deal.   Edler earned his last deal.    And doubt he will be back unless it's closer to 4.   Until QHs and Myers showed up he was still our best D.   And isn't that bad yet either.   

 

The only thing JB is guilty of is LE and staggering his placeholders one year wrong.   Not a huge deal, only one teams managed to win a cup since the cap with the new core carrying the mail during ELC's and that's CHI first cup.   Crosby didn't do it.   Nobody else did either.  To me JB made this team and has earned the right to see it through, including his own mistakes.   

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7 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

A buyout after Eriksson's signing bonus is paid will result in a $2M cap saving in year 1 + $1M cap hit in year 2 for a net saving of $1M.  Also a cash net cash savings of $1M.  Your telling me they don't do this?

if the 2m in cap saving is not going to affect the long term plan, (which it shouldn't) then it's not worth gaining the temporary boost. especially when Free agency is going to have more demand. waiting on utilizing our cap space could be more impactful then wasting it on players that don't fit the mold of our team. 

 

But i see your point, and it wouldn't shock me if he's bought out.

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1 hour ago, Petey_BOI said:

if the 2m in cap saving is not going to affect the long term plan, (which it shouldn't) then it's not worth gaining the temporary boost. especially when Free agency is going to have more demand. waiting on utilizing our cap space could be more impactful then wasting it on players that don't fit the mold of our team. 

 

But i see your point, and it wouldn't shock me if he's bought out.

The next couple of years are going to be really interesting.  How the cap is managed, who gets re-signed, who doesn't.  They might need that $2M because there are 3 really good players who need 2nd contracts and some of the UFA's may get re-signed.  Hamonic, Pearson, Edler, at less money.  They may even like Sutter for less.  I wonder how the contracts will be structured?  Benning is going to need help with the contracts and I hope that Chris Gear is up to the task.  Time will tell.

 

It's tricky with this covid thing going on.  We don't know when we're going to see fans.  Next year, I expect a flat cap again because it'll be based on this year.  I think they'll slowly get back to normal and it could be all star break before we see full arena's.  The year after does the cap go up a little and the year after that (after a full, normal season) do we see the cap rising as it should?  We just don't know.  This is why we aren't seeing guys like Green and others on expiring contracts getting signed yet.  It'll all be last minute because they can't make assumptions about the future

 

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29 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

The next couple of years are going to be really interesting.  How the cap is managed, who gets re-signed, who doesn't.  They might need that $2M because there are 3 really good players who need 2nd contracts and some of the UFA's may get re-signed.  Hamonic, Pearson, Edler, at less money.  They may even like Sutter for less.  I wonder how the contracts will be structured?  Benning is going to need help with the contracts and I hope that Chris Gear is up to the task.  Time will tell.

 

It's tricky with this covid thing going on.  We don't know when we're going to see fans.  Next year, I expect a flat cap again because it'll be based on this year.  I think they'll slowly get back to normal and it could be all star break before we see full arena's.  The year after does the cap go up a little and the year after that (after a full, normal season) do we see the cap rising as it should?  We just don't know.  This is why we aren't seeing guys like Green and others on expiring contracts getting signed yet.  It'll all be last minute because they can't make assumptions about the future

 

your right, it is interesting. the structure of the contracts is going to paint the picture of JB's plan.

 

Looking back gm jb signings i don't fault him very much, except on two signings beagle and roussel.

 

Beagle: Although this is in hindsight, signing beagle was a mistake and shown it was a misjudgment of our prospects potential. Having two defensive minded centres locked up for 3 more years meant he believed that jake virtanen was a shoe in for graduating to the top 6. Jake didn't show that with his mindset or efforts. even if he had any reasonable doubts of jake failing, beagle should not have been signed for 4 years. the signing meant that virtanen would be playing with defence minded centers which is not a good fit. Our other "Prospects" were offensive minded as well, which of course was not a good fit.

 

Roussel was a bad signing for roussels consistency. Going from a career year to your worst year and awarding a 3 year contract is taking a massive risk, but not only did he make the contract too long he overpaid per point. at max roussel should have been given a 2 year contract. but this signing showed less insight then the beagle signing. pests are most effective when there allowed to do there thing playing on the edge of dirty. but roussel shown over his career he was a bottom of the barrel type pest. as good as he was at drawing penalties he always went a little too far too often. but even more important was that roussel was expected to score 30 points, so for that to be realistic that meant he would be playing on the third line. Sutter is our 3rd line center ever in a million years should a pest and a gentile center who plays the game from sound positioning. a pest gets out of position on purpose to harass, interfere and throw the odd late check. offensively there different playing styles wouldn't matter much, but defensively GM benning should know the two are like oil and water. they don't think the same way defensively.

 

you add it all up together, and your bottom 6 is a ragtag hodgepodge of different playing styles that no matter where you put them you cant form 1 cohesive line between 6 players.

 

and during all this time he still hasn't once tried to correct the mismatched lines through trade, or rather he cant because he gave them NTC. 

 

we would have been better off with another 4M dollar center who could play both ends of the ice but with physicality. and a 2m dollar winger that was strictly a gritty defensive forward. sure sutter would be playing 4th line duties but at least you could make cohesive lines

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10 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

completely forgot about the expansion draft, but they could trade one or two of these untouchables for players not exempt to the draft (podkolzin and hughes). For Tampa Bay the world is thier oyster, if they made some sort of podkolzin hughes for cirelli Sergachev Trade they could keep thier top6 and top 4 intact improving thier defence without sacrificing the future. The value of ELC of podkolzin may be enough to justify a 1/1 swap with cirelli for a team to keep their top performing players together for another 3 years.

Interesting trade idea. I don't think that VAN can afford to take on $9.6m of cap with Cirelli + Serg tho.

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4 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Interesting trade idea. I don't think that VAN can afford to take on $9.6m of cap with Cirelli + Serg tho.

Yeah just modelled it in Capfriendly and looks fine for VAN. I still think TBL wouldn't do this deal think we'd have to add an asset or (more to their liking) take a contract to reduce their cap hit. If we took Johnson off their hands then this helps them long term, not just next season. Adding something like Eriksson for Johnson into the deal, and then TBL buy out LE.

 

So final deal:

To VAN: Cirelli, Sergachev, Johnson

To TBL: Hughes, Podkolzin, Eriksson

 

Edit: Also worth noting that this deal helps TBL in the expansion draft since Hughes and Podz are exempt. TBL could then protect 7F, 3D (Hedman, Cernak, Foote) and 1G instead of needing to protect 8 skaters to protect Serg. Having 7 F protection spots allows them to protect most of their young F prospects and leave Palat, Killorn, Gourde exposed. This cuts down Seattle's options to get a useful player from TBL without selecting one of those guys. TBL likely also offers a significant sweetener (1st pick) if Seattle takes one of those bigger contracts.

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36 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

Yeah just modelled it in Capfriendly and looks fine for VAN. I still think TBL wouldn't do this deal think we'd have to add an asset or (more to their liking) take a contract to reduce their cap hit. If we took Johnson off their hands then this helps them long term, not just next season. Adding something like Eriksson for Johnson into the deal, and then TBL buy out LE.

 

So final deal:

To VAN: Cirelli, Sergachev, Johnson

To TBL: Hughes, Podkolzin, Eriksson

 

we would be a much better team for it. Johnson is overpaid, but he's a improvement over sutter.

 

I know this a fair deal, because i hate it. but at the same time we likely be better for making this trade for at least 2 years. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Petey_BOI said:

we would be a much better team for it. Johnson is overpaid, but he's a improvement over sutter.

 

I know this a fair deal, because i hate it. but at the same time we likely be better for making this trade for at least 2 years. 

Haha yeah I know what you mean. Intriguing proposal. FYI if we went ahead our roster next season looks something like this:

 

Pettersson Horvat Boeser

Miller Cirelli Hoglander

Vesey Johnson Gaudette

Motte Beagle MacEwen

(Lind)

 

Edler Schmidt

Sergachev Hamonic

Juolevi Myers

(Rathbone Tryamkin)

 

Demko, Copeland

 

Assumptions:

- Seattle takes Virtanen

- Holtby buy out

- Waive Roussel

- Ferland on LTIR

- Resign Pettersson $8m, Gaudette $1m, Vesey $1m, Lind $1.25m, Edler $2m, Hamonic $2m, Juolevi $1.25m, Tryamkin $2m,

- Sign UFA Copeland $1.25m

- Total cap hit for 23 man roster = $80.2m per capfriendly

 

For 2022-23:

Leaves $18.5m in cap space with Boeser, Motte, Rathbone to resign. Bring in Jasek as Beagle replacement? Make decision on whether Edler, MacEwen resign or their spots get taken by up and coming Gadjovich and Woo.

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14 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Haha yeah I know what you mean. Intriguing proposal. FYI if we went ahead our roster next season looks something like this:

 

Pettersson Horvat Boeser

Miller Cirelli Hoglander

Vesey Johnson Gaudette

Motte Beagle MacEwen

(Lind)

 

Edler Schmidt

Sergachev Hamonic

Juolevi Myers

(Rathbone Tryamkin)

 

Demko, Copeland

 

Assumptions:

- Seattle takes Virtanen

- Holtby buy out

- Waive Roussel

- Ferland on LTIR

- Resign Pettersson $8m, Gaudette $1m, Vesey $1m, Lind $1.25m, Edler $2m, Hamonic $2m, Juolevi $1.25m, Tryamkin $2m,

- Sign UFA Copeland $1.25m

- Total cap hit for 23 man roster = $80.2m per capfriendly

 

For 2022-23:

Leaves $18.5m in cap space with Boeser, Motte, Rathbone to resign. Bring in Jasek as Beagle replacement? Make decision on whether Edler, MacEwen resign or their spots get taken by up and coming Gadjovich and Woo.

i posted this proposal on hf boards, I think they thought I was trolling, because they locked the thread

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48 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

i posted this proposal on hf boards, I think they thought I was trolling, because they locked the thread

You should post it on CDC. I imagine the main feedback will be "we are not trading Hughes" and fair enough. I can see both sides of the trade and the value that Cirelli and Sergachev can bring to VAN short and long term. I am sure most TBL fans would be saying "we are not trading Cirelli"...as you say painful for both teams probably means the value is about right but doesn't mean they will actually make the trade!

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Just now, BigTramFan said:

You should post it on CDC. I imagine the main feedback will be "we are not trading Hughes" and fair enough. I can see both sides of the trade and the value that Cirelli and Sergachev can bring to VAN short and long term. I am sure most TBL fans would be saying "we are not trading Cirelli"...as you say painful for both teams probably means the value is about right but doesn't mean they will actually make the trade!

there's only so much bashing of my intelligence i can handle, I would probably get less bashing if I made a thread encouraging people not to get the covid-19 vaccine 

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