Seven years without a clear plan from Canucks brass.

[Devron]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

That's a BINGO.   Agreed.   Cap after next year will allow for one, or maybe two holes to be filled - the rest has the come from within.   Thankfully we should get another blue chip guy this season for that.   Patience is a virtue and get that anyone is done with this team or is had too much.   But that's the league now.  Really i didn't think JB or anyone had a hope in hell.   The only thing that bugs me a little is he gave more hope then the average fan should get.   Grateful yes.  No he's not a god.  He's just better then average lol. 

Agree on pretty much everything here. I do think it was good to have what we had last summer that was a lot of fun. It’s a tough line of keeping fans hopeful/happy and actually building a team. I only wish they started more of a rebuild while the Sedins were here but I totally get what they tried to do there. Tried to build a team with nothing in hopes for one last chance for those guys. That was tough but those last few games with the Sedins was as memorable as any playoffs for me.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

It has taken then 7 years to get 10 quality players. They need ten more. They need a complete bottom six.

 

Only time will solve this. 

You do realize we have other players still in the pipeline? Goodness you're myopic.

 

And note I said exiting, not exited. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by aGENT

[4petesake]

2 hours ago, appleboy said:

Stupid is not examining the offers. 

 

The bolded part shows how delusional you really are.                We are mid way into a rebuild. Three to four years away. If they get aggressive. We are missing about ten players to make this club a real contender. The entire bottom six is a mess.   

 

If Schmidt was 25 then I would say keep him.

I don’t get it. From what I’ve been reading in this thread Beagle, Sutter, Roussell, Pearson & the rest of the bottom six are easily replaceable by low-paid short-term dime-a-dozen guys. Doesn’t that mean we are only short the #3C and another RD to finish the rebuild?

[wallstreetamigo]

3 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

I don’t get it. From what I’ve been reading in this thread Beagle, Sutter, Roussell, Pearson & the rest of the bottom six are easily replaceable by low-paid short-term dime-a-dozen guys. Doesn’t that mean we are only short the #3C and another RD to finish the rebuild?

Look around the league. Not many good teams overpay 3-4 bottom 6 forwards and have another 9 mil or so in the minors/press box. Most good teams have at least some young players and/or cheap contract veterans playing in their bottom 6. The Canucks dont trust young players in those roles and really havent for a very long time. 

 

At some point you have to also question if coaching is part of the problem with the teams defensive play. But as constructed the roster is too bottom heavy contract wise. That needs to be addressed for the team to be able to keep their top players long term.

 

And its interesting to me that we apparently need a bunch of defensively solid mentoring vets at premium cap and term yet our team defense is and was still among the worst in the league while they are here. Goalies standing on their heads to get wins is not a solid defensive strategy. Well, not if you want to be a consistently good team.

[appleboy]

30 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

I don’t get it. From what I’ve been reading in this thread Beagle, Sutter, Roussell, Pearson & the rest of the bottom six are easily replaceable by low-paid short-term dime-a-dozen guys. Doesn’t that mean we are only short the #3C and another RD to finish the rebuild?

If your hope is to make the playoffs and get the boot in the first round then your wish will be granted over the next couple of years.

 

I have been a fan for a long time and it is not the playoffs that I care about. I want to see the cup. Nothing else.

 

Go and examine the teams that you will need to get past to accomplish that.  See what their bottom six looks like.

Edited March 29, 2021 by appleboy

[wallstreetamigo]

I respect that people have different opinions than me. Notice I do not suggest people are wrong or name call them because I dont agree with them.  Others here keep saying its my opinion which I have never claimed otherwise and that since they dont agree I am "wrong". My opinion - or anyone elses - and facts are not automatically mutually exclusive just because you or I happen to disagree. There are a lot of degrees of grey in any of this.

 

I provide reasoning behind my opinions at least and listen when others do the same. Sometimes I even learn something or see things from another perspective. 

 

You can't discredit someone else by saying its "just your opinion" as a means to suggest it can't possibly be fact without also admitting your own "opinion" is just that and as a result can't be considered fact.

 

Everyone thinks their own opinion is right. Its kind of the point of having any opinion.

 

So I enjoy bantering and discussing different angles with mutual respect that others opinions are as valid as mine. 

 

There, off the soapbox now so carry on!

 

 

[4petesake]

27 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Look around the league. Not many good teams overpay 3-4 bottom 6 forwards and have another 9 mil or so in the minors/press box. Most good teams have at least some young players and/or cheap contract veterans playing in their bottom 6. The Canucks dont trust young players in those roles and really havent for a very long time. 

 

At some point you have to also question if coaching is part of the problem with the teams defensive play. But as constructed the roster is too bottom heavy contract wise. That needs to be addressed for the team to be able to keep their top players long term.

 

And its interesting to me that we apparently need a bunch of defensively solid mentoring vets at premium cap and term yet our team defense is and was still among the worst in the league while they are here. Goalies standing on their heads to get wins is not a solid defensive strategy. Well, not if you want to be a consistently good team.

As to the first part I agree that good teams don’t overpay bottom six.  Some of us may not think we overpaid but we were not a good team so what’s the difference? Beagle was fresh off a Stanley Cup winner and was considered one of key guys in the room. Sutter is a guy that any coach would want. These guys helped teach the young guys about being pros. You and I differ on the importance of good quality veteran role models but so be it, after this year I would hope that 2-3 of these guys are replaced from within.

 

I share your concerns re coaching and defensive play. The problem may begin with Baumgartner but if so that’s on Green, and ultimately JB. We can do all the griping we want right now but I guess we’ll have to wait and see what happens in the off-season. 

 

 

 

[aGENT]

55 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Look around the league. Not many good teams overpay 3-4 bottom 6 forwards and have another 9 mil or so in the minors/press box. Most good teams have at least some young players and/or cheap contract veterans playing in their bottom 6. The Canucks dont trust young players in those roles and really havent for a very long time. 

 

 

Gaudette, Virtanen, Motte, Hawryluck and MacEwan say hi.

 

Guys like Lind, Jasek, Gadjovich etc on the way. They say hi too.

 

50 minutes ago, appleboy said:

If your hope is to make the playoffs and get the boot in the first round then your wish will be granted over the next couple of years.

 

I have been a fan for a long time and it is not the playoffs that I care about. I want to see the cup. Nothing else.

 

Go and examine the teams that you will need to get past to accomplish that.  See what their bottom six looks like.

You don't flick a switch and go from rebuild to cup contender.

[aGENT]

46 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I respect that people have different opinions than me. Notice I do not suggest people are wrong or name call them because I dont agree with them.  Others here keep saying its my opinion which I have never claimed otherwise and that since they dont agree I am "wrong". My opinion - or anyone elses - and facts are not automatically mutually exclusive just because you or I happen to disagree. There are a lot of degrees of grey in any of this.

 

I provide reasoning behind my opinions at least and listen when others do the same. Sometimes I even learn something or see things from another perspective. 

 

You can't discredit someone else by saying its "just your opinion" as a means to suggest it can't possibly be fact without also admitting your own "opinion" is just that and as a result can't be considered fact.

 

Everyone thinks their own opinion is right. Its kind of the point of having any opinion.

 

So I enjoy bantering and discussing different angles with mutual respect that others opinions are as valid as mine. 

 

There, off the soapbox now so carry on!

 

 

Actually some of us have been trying to illustrate that just because you think you're opinion is correct, doesn't mean another person's isn't.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, appleboy said:

They could move Schmidt. They could turn Schmidt into a defensive prospect and a first.

And why the heck should they do that?  While they are at it, why not Horvat and Miller too.   Then we can become the "new and improved" Eberle, Hall, RNH EDM Oilers, of course Demko too. 

[IBatch]

57 minutes ago, appleboy said:

If your hope is to make the playoffs and get the boot in the first round then your wish will be granted over the next couple of years.

 

I have been a fan for a long time and it is not the playoffs that I care about. I want to see the cup. Nothing else.

 

Go and examine the teams that you will need to get past to accomplish that.  See what their bottom six looks like.

How long exactly have you been a fan?  Just curious.   Because based on your posts if i had to guess maybe since the peak WCE era at the most, probably the peak Sedin team era.     When have the Canucks had such young potential together at one time?   Once maybe twice.   And that goes way back from there.   Get fans are frustrated, i am too. But i remember decades when nobody gave two sh!ts what a star or a bottom six player made, just identified to how that player did his thing, and would see all sorts of jerseys in the stands.    And really it wasn't that long ago either.   To me a "long time fan"  is anyone who was around for at least the 94 run and wasn't in grade school.   Yes examine CAL bottom six, EDM lol.   Or should we look at WNP's?   The only bottom six that was intimidating isn't so tough anymore now that Stastny's gone, that's Vegas.   In our conference anyways.    I for one am pretty nervous about how things will look next year.   Better hope our younger players are ready. 

 

And why would you think we'd get the boot anyways?  We did beat MIN and then the cup champs last year....we aren't built like TO. 

[stawns]

On 3/26/2021 at 9:53 AM, appleboy said:

This is how I see Jim Benning's tenor.

 

Linden and Jim inherited an aging hockey club. One that had been on a win now agenda for several years in a row. Not only was the NHL product beginning to wane but their minor league system had been stripped to the bear bones . Most of the fan base expected them to announce a rebuild. To our surprise they instead went to the ufa market and continued with the win now agenda. After a decent season they were quickly and embarrassingly dispatched by the Flames. 

Season two fans were again prepared for the rebuild announcement. Even when asked directly about their plans they refused to even suggest the idea of a rebuild. Over the next few years they kept going back to the ufa market. Not once would they say the words rebuild. It was suggested that it would not be fair to put the twins through a rebuild. Not once did they come out and lay out a real plan. 

Once the twins retired you would think that would have triggered the club to use that opportunity to put forth a plan to rebuild the decimated organization. They sort of came out and hinted to a retool. LOL .  Yet they continued to go back to the ufa market. They made deals for other teams left overs to try and fill what Jim called the 22 to 25 year old players that were missing from our system. They were making moves to try to skip doing a proper rebuild. We began to see a conflict develop between Linden and Benning. Linden was starting to lean toward a proper rebuild and Jim wanted to continue on with the build on the fly motto. Management showed their true colors by siding with Jim.  Linden gets the boot.

Jim Benning's lack of planning and cap management has got the club into cap issues and restricted the clubs ability to add any talent for this year and next.       "That brings us to now".

 

So what is the plan? Be active at trade deadline? Playoffs at all cost? 

 

This club has been lacking a real plan of attack for years.

 

 

Maybe you see things differently. Please enlighten me.

 

 

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Look around the league. Not many good teams overpay 3-4 bottom 6 forwards and have another 9 mil or so in the minors/press box. Most good teams have at least some young players and/or cheap contract veterans playing in their bottom 6. The Canucks dont trust young players in those roles and really havent for a very long time. 

 

At some point you have to also question if coaching is part of the problem with the teams defensive play. But as constructed the roster is too bottom heavy contract wise. That needs to be addressed for the team to be able to keep their top players long term.

 

And its interesting to me that we apparently need a bunch of defensively solid mentoring vets at premium cap and term yet our team defense is and was still among the worst in the league while they are here. Goalies standing on their heads to get wins is not a solid defensive strategy. Well, not if you want to be a consistently good team.

Defensively, this team should be a lot better, but the defense coach is just not good at all. Baumgarnter's systems are a joke and rely to heavily on goaltending. Until Benning cuts bait with the assistant coaches, the issues will continue.

[wallstreetamigo]

56 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Gaudette, Virtanen, Motte, Hawryluck and MacEwan say hi.

 

Guys like Lind, Jasek, Gadjovich etc on the way. They say hi too.

 

You don't flick a switch and go from rebuild to cup contender.

Gaudette and Virtanen are clearly not in the plans or trusted by the team in the bottom 6 as they are rumored to be imminently traded every day. Since they are probably the only players other teams want that JB would actually trade.  Motte is the only true exception. The others get into the lineup when veteran mentors inevitably get injured.

 

Anyone "on the way" is not exactly an example of what I was talking about as they arent in the role and we dont yet know how much or even if they will be trusted by the coaching staff.

 

Roussel as an example has never been the same since his injury. Thats the kindest assessment for his play imo. He should have probably been in the press box awhile ago. And I like Roussel as a player. One of those other guys could probably do more with that spot though.

[wallstreetamigo]

21 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Defensively, this team should be a lot better, but the defense coach is just not good at all. Baumgarnter's systems are a joke and rely to heavily on goaltending. Until Benning cuts bait with the assistant coaches, the issues will continue.

I agree about the assistant coaches. I also think Green bears responsibility though.

[PhillipBlunt]

7 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I agree about the assistant coaches. I also think Green bears responsibility though.

For sure. 

[wallstreetamigo]

36 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

For sure. 

Theoretically a defense that has

 

Edler-Schmidt

Hughes-Hamonic

Juolevi/Benn-Myers 

 

Should and is capable of being much better defensively. A lot of the problems I see are more system based I think.

 

The forward group also has to be better defensively though.

 

They dont seem to be cohesive as a 5 man unit defensively. 

[lmm]

8 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Canucks drafting with Gilles managing was not very good, but to compare it to drafting under Gilles is comparing apples to oranges, seeing as we were President Cup teams with getting last round picks (basically 2^nd round as your 1^st round pick)

Neither Gilles nor Benning are out on the road scouting, they are managing the team in Vancouver, It is the scouts they rely on for their information and the draft is their show as all the other top GM’s have stated, So maybe judge them on their managing, instead of thinking they are scouts

 

If we were to make a more fair comparison, and remove all our High 1^st round picks, this is what our team would look like since 2014 with drafting under Benning with the picks Gilles team was getting, (without the butterfly effect)

 

Hoglander    (Horvat)   Boeser

Gadjovich     McCann     Lind

?                    Gaudette   Lockwood

?                       ?                  ?

 

            (Edler)               ?

           Rathbone          Woo

           Tryamkin            ?          (Only Tree and gf doesn’t want to be here and N.A. and not in the lineup)

           Forsling               ?

 

 

                         Demko

                         Dipietro

I am not sure what you are getting at

I am thinking along the lines of Gillis trades for a 1st and 3 seconds in 2012 

and 

2 firsts and 3 seconds in  2013

and it looks like

                           Horvat

Rychel (2013 1st)Gaunce Collberg(2012 2nd)

Shrinkwrap (2013)Samuelson(2012 1st)  Bailey (2013 2nd)

L Sutter (2012 2nd)

Cassels (2013)

 

Benny the Hut

Blujus(2012 2nd) Morin (2013 1st)

Olofsson (2013 2nd) Tommy Vanelli(2013 2nd)(cuz who doesn't pick a guy named Tommy Vanelli?)

 

and poof new core drafted

[wallstreetamigo]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Actually some of us have been trying to illustrate that just because you think you're opinion is correct, doesn't mean another person's isn't.

Didn't I just say that?

 

I have never once said your opinion is wrong. Just that I don't agree.

 

You have several times said mine is wrong though. So really you seem to be the one who isnt taking your own advice bud.

[smokes]

9 hours ago, gurn said:

But he and Brackett drafted those players, so how could it get worse with out Brackett?

Unless you are saying it would be worse without Brackett even thoufgh you are saying it was not good with Brackett?

Really, what are you trying to say anyway?

Brackett was the one who pushed for a lot of draft choices. He was extraordinarily good at his job but Benning didn't want to promote him cause he wants to oversee drafting himself. Bracket left and Minnisota snatched him up quick. Benning has shown he has been hit ofr miss by himself in evaluating talent.