Seven years without a clear plan from Canucks brass.

[Rush17]

9 hours ago, aGENT said:

One of your better posts. Good stuff there.

 

Yeah, we do have a good, young team... Solid young core not even in its prime, with more youth trending well and coming, and another high draft pick this summer.  No long term cap issues. But carry on panicking about a gong show of a season...

I want to give the org the benefit of the doubt. But seeing the players play their guts out and green's inability to keep these games close its bit frustrating. I have been an avid Jim Benning and Travis Green supporter as you know. Seeing the players play their hearts out and it still not being enough to keep it close is infuriating. I personally haven't enjoyed our style of game this season - perhaps its a lack of man power but I honestly don't know. I expect the team to be harder to play against and its quite frustrating when we roll over. 

I also appreciate what Jim is trying to do. Add layers of depth within the org so we can replace within. Which is fantastic for an idea but when your replacing mediocrity with more mediocrity it gets a bit taxing. We are cash strapped -  even tho I supported the Roussel/Beags contracts .. we are now in a bind that isn't working in our favour. I want us to be able to actually go out and get 1 or 2 - 2 million dollar players to compliment our bottom six. All Jim is doing is trading for other peoples bottom six candidates. 

 

I understand what Jim is trying to do. Hell I respect the hell out of him for actually getting us players within to compliment our injuries is fantastic.. I guess I'm more upset with how long its taking for impact players to come from that depth. Perhaps Lind takes that step next season.. or Gadjovich lights the lamp on fire. But the early appearances of Lind and Rathbone have been underwhelming and I shouldn't be expecting more as they are rookies. I'm just frustrated i guess its taken this long and we are so close to having impact guys come through the system. Most of our nhl youth is either other teams cast offs or players we had slated as first round talent. (Aside from Gaudette who we shipped out which I'm fine with - I like what highmore can bring to the bottom of our lineup as a 4th line forward or depth F. 

 

But the systems used by Green just aren't tickling my fancy. I know he has a bunch of AHL'ers in the line up but a lot of these kids deserve this audition. Perhaps if they were given their chances a bit earlier it would have made them better prepared for if this happened. but who can predict if a team will go down to covid. I'm asking to much lol. Just a general frustration I suppose at our situation. I just can't wait for the draft lottery then draft day. I want to see what our scouting staff can do with a relatively high pick in this really uncertain draft. 

 

Keep up the good work guys. Hope we see some sort of coaching adjustments down the road here.

[kloubek]

1 hour ago, Rush17 said:

But the systems used by Green just aren't tickling my fancy.

...and I think this is where the real question lies. What is the missing factor, and IS it the coaching?

 

If you look at this team on paper, I think it's actually not bad at all. We have speedy, young, talented guys on the roster. And yes, there are some players that aren't living up to their contracts but I think you could say that on most teams. And yes, I've disagreed with some of Benning's moves but again, the same could be said of any GM. I think overall, he has largely done a good job assembling this team. So IF one agrees, then it comes down to 2 possible things. The players themselves, and the coaching.

 

As far as the players go, they really are trying out there, but we see lots of mistakes. Lots of turnovers, odd-man rushes, shots against, and high danger scoring chances. I think there certainly is something to be said about the players in all that - especially when it is really glaring like it was the last couple games with Miller. The individual poor choices need to stop.

 

But being that these issues also affect the team as a whole, I can't help but think it's the systems utilized which are failing us. And if that is true, does that fall on Green or say, Baumgartner? I'm almost inclined to think the whole coaching staff should be sacked, but it would also be a hit to our identity, which has already taken a beating by losing key players. It's a risk, but unless we can figure out why the team is underperforming, it might be required.

 

Note: I don't know how many REALLY expected us to be a good team after Covid, and without Petey. So I'm giving the boys a pass for now, but we saw all this prior to the outbreak, of course.

Edited May 5, 2021 by kloubek

[aGENT]

3 hours ago, awalk said:

If only saying it made it so 

It's a bit tight, but completely manageable for one more year but we have money to bring back who we want to keep and bringing kids in. We have solid youngsters coming and another high pick after this gong show season is over.

 

It's really not as bad or scary as some of you are making it out to be.

[Provost]

23 minutes ago, kloubek said:

...and I think this is where the real question lies. What is the missing factor, and IS it the coaching?

 

If you look at this team on paper, I think it's actually not that bad at all

Our team is bad “on paper” when half of them were already on waivers or could be put on waivers without getting picked up.

 

Players that would have trade value (eg. that anyone would want at their contract value):

Petterson, Horvat, Boeser, Miller, Hoglander, Hughes, Demko

 

Players that “might” get something on return but nothing significant:

Motte, Schmidt, Pearson, Juolevi, Myers, Holtby

 

Players that probably don’t get picked up on waivers if we tried to dump them:

Sutter, Roussel, Beagle, Ferland, Vesey, Boyd, Highmore, Chatfield, Brisebois, Hawyrluk, Virtanen, Michaelis, Graovac, Bailey, Eriksson, Baertschi 

 

 

That doesn’t look very good “on paper” to me.  
 

First the GM needs to be fired, and then the new one can decide on what coaching staff he needs.

 

Really to me, I honestly don’t care if they trade away most of the team and start over with the good young pieces.

 

Horvat, Petterson, Hughes, and Demko are the only untouchables for me.... Hoglander, Podkolzin, and Rathbone nearly untouchable since we likely couldn’t get a return that would equal their value to us on cheap contracts.

 

If you could get a decent return of picks and blue chip prospects and dump some cap for Miller and Boeser I would even do that.  They could be replaced in the short term by taking on contracts from cap strapped teams, and long term by the accrued young assets.

 

People are overestimating some magical turnaround when we get some bad contracts off the books.  How exactly does that happen?  We need to find the “better” replacement players from somewhere and our prospect pool isn’t good, and will be downright terrible once Podkolzin and Rathbone graduate onto the team.  We would have to go to the UFA market again and overpay for players because our team will be bad and not an attractive destination.... restarting the whole process of having overpaid/underperforming veterans wasting cap dollars.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Provost

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Rush17 said:

I want to give the org the benefit of the doubt. But seeing the players play their guts out and green's inability to keep these games close its bit frustrating. I have been an avid Jim Benning and Travis Green supporter as you know. Seeing the players play their hearts out and it still not being enough to keep it close is infuriating. I personally haven't enjoyed our style of game this season - perhaps its a lack of man power but I honestly don't know. I expect the team to be harder to play against and its quite frustrating when we roll over. 

 

A lot of reasons for this IMO. Some may be coaching (and some of that is unclear how much is say Green vs Baumgartner). Some of it was a young core expected to lead the way, struggling out of the gate (and Pettersson getting hurt). Combined with a bunch of new players and a lack of chemistry/unfamiliarity with said core and a league's worst schedule (next to no practice time)/lack of preseason and they looked predictably unorganized our of the gate.

 

Then after a month'ish of actually playing largely good hockey (without Pettersson) likely closer to more of an 'expected' level (coaching/player execution appeared much better), Covid ravages the team. Now you've got a team of gassed, post-Covid guys trying to slog through yet another, ridiculously compressed schedule.

 

These next few weeks aren't going to look pretty no matter who the coaches/players are.

 

1 hour ago, Rush17 said:

I also appreciate what Jim is trying to do. Add layers of depth within the org so we can replace within. Which is fantastic for an idea but when your replacing mediocrity with more mediocrity it gets a bit taxing. We are cash strapped -  even tho I supported the Roussel/Beags contracts .. we are now in a bind that isn't working in our favour. I want us to be able to actually go out and get 1 or 2 - 2 million dollar players to compliment our bottom six. All Jim is doing is trading for other peoples bottom six candidates. 

 

I understand what Jim is trying to do. Hell I respect the hell out of him for actually getting us players within to compliment our injuries is fantastic.. I guess I'm more upset with how long its taking for impact players to come from that depth. Perhaps Lind takes that step next season.. or Gadjovich lights the lamp on fire. But the early appearances of Lind and Rathbone have been underwhelming and I shouldn't be expecting more as they are rookies. I'm just frustrated i guess its taken this long and we are so close to having impact guys come through the system. Most of our nhl youth is either other teams cast offs or players we had slated as first round talent. (Aside from Gaudette who we shipped out which I'm fine with - I like what highmore can bring to the bottom of our lineup as a 4th line forward or depth F. 

Guys like Vesey, etc are short term, injury filler. They're not meant is long term 'building' pieces.

 

I'd have preferred we moved Gaudette (and Virtanen) last year. But I also have zero idea what, if any, market there was for either. I can also understand the reasoning behind seeing if they could continue to take steps. Honestly don't think we had any plans to bring Gaudette back... People need to view that trade as getting something instead of nothing, and just letting him walk.

 

1 hour ago, Rush17 said:

 

But the systems used by Green just aren't tickling my fancy. I know he has a bunch of AHL'ers in the line up but a lot of these kids deserve this audition. Perhaps if they were given their chances a bit earlier it would have made them better prepared for if this happened. but who can predict if a team will go down to covid. I'm asking to much lol. Just a general frustration I suppose at our situation. I just can't wait for the draft lottery then draft day. I want to see what our scouting staff can do with a relatively high pick in this really uncertain draft. 

 

Keep up the good work guys. Hope we see some sort of coaching adjustments down the road here.

I get it. This has been a ridiculously, frustrating season to watch as a fan (on top of everyone's own Covid stress). But it's a short term problem. The organization is still trending well with a solid young core, lots of positively developing depth pieces, more key pieces coming and cap opening up, with zero long term commitments, right when Pettersson and Hughes enter the earliest of their primes. It'll be ok

[Fred65]

Quote

This has been a ridiculously, frustrating season to watch as a fan (on top of everyone's own Covid stress). But it's a short term problem. The organization is still trending well with a solid young core, lots of positively developing depth pieces, more key pieces coming and cap opening up, with zero long term commitments, right when Pettersson and Hughes enter the earliest of their primes. It'll be ok 

One thing for sure Vancouver fans have an incredible aptitude for suffering and set a very very low bar for measuring the future of the club. It's like they feel guilty about wishing for success, almost masochistic*

 

**

"enjoying an activity that appears to be painful or tedious."

[awalk]

17 hours ago, aGENT said:

One of your better posts. Good stuff there.

 

Yeah, we do have a good, young team... Solid young core not even in its prime, with more youth trending well and coming, and another high draft pick this summer.  No long term cap issues. But carry on panicking about a gong show of a season...

Have you seen this? LOL 
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/canucks

[aGENT]

50 minutes ago, awalk said:

Have you seen this? LOL 
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/canucks

Yup. It's not really a problem.

[wallstreetamigo]

I am curious. Those people who think cap is not a problem (lol).

 

How will you defdnd it if Sutter gets 3 x 3 plus mil with trade protection and/or Edler gets 2 x 4.5 plus mil with a nmc?

 

I could see either or both happening tbh.

 

And I know people will say its a big win because they are making less than now just like they do with Pearson.

[appleboy]

7 hours ago, aGENT said:

It's a bit tight, but completely manageable for one more year but we have money to bring back who we want to keep and bringing kids in. We have solid youngsters coming and another high pick after this gong show season is over.

 

It's really not as bad or scary as some of you are making it out to be.

No one is saying it is scary. You keep suggesting that we are scared or freaked out. Not us.

We are simple saying that because of bad contracts or poor cap management they weren't able to ice the best team possible this year. This will be true for next also.

That is not scary it is stupid.  Managing gap is part of being a good GM. 

For those of us who are hopping they take time to finish the rebuild it is far from scary it is a blessing that Jim messed up the cap because it has forced him to just add through the draft this year. It also forced them to ice a weaker team so we will draft higher. Could be same for next year.

[aGENT]

2 hours ago, appleboy said:

No one is saying it is scary. You keep suggesting that we are scared or freaked out. Not us.

We are simple saying that because of bad contracts or poor cap management they weren't able to ice the best team possible this year. This will be true for next also.

That is not scary it is stupid.  Managing gap is part of being a good GM. 

For those of us who are hopping they take time to finish the rebuild it is far from scary it is a blessing that Jim messed up the cap because it has forced him to just add through the draft this year. It also forced them to ice a weaker team so we will draft higher. Could be same for next year.

Toffoli being the only 'loss' (actually lack of a gain) wasn't turning this gong show season around on his own.

 

Sorry.

 

As nice as he would have been to retain, he, nor the team's cap was the reason this season went South.

 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

Toffoli being the only 'loss' (actually lack of a gain) wasn't turning this gong show season around on his own.

 

Sorry.

 

As nice as he would have been to retain, he, nor the team's cap was the reason this season went South.

 

 

Toffoli isnt the only loss though. Tanev is definitely a loss as well.

 

But the real loss to the team is the opportunity cost of all the cap space Benning has wasted. It could have been used to take a few cap dumps with picks/prospects added as an example. We woukd have ended up in the same place at leasf for a few years but with a stronger prospect pool or picks and cap space to add difference makers.

[kloubek]

14 hours ago, Provost said:

That doesn’t look very good “on paper” to me.  

 

Really to me, I honestly don’t care if they trade away most of the team and start over...

 

Horvat, Petterson, Hughes, and Demko are the only untouchables for me.... Hoglander, Podkolzin, and Rathbone nearly untouchable since we likely couldn’t get a return that would equal their value to us on cheap contracts.

It isn't realistic to expect every player to be worth their contract imo. (And thereby being considered "worth something"). Players decline, get injured, or otherwise underpeform all the time. The best GMs manage to mitigate it as well as possible, but I bet you could look at any NHL roster and pick out a handful of guys most other GMs would really want given their contract price. In some cases, several.

 

Yes, we are still overpaying for bottom six guys, thanks to Bennings off-season signings from hell which were meant to teach our young guys how to play the "right way". Yes, LE continues to be a thorn in our side. Those contracts will be gone soon. 

 

Then what do we do with the cap space? Trade for higher cap star players or sign UFAs. Now, you say you don't want to overpay for UFAs which is fair, but I think you don't need AS much overpayment to bring a good player to a budding contender as we did when we brought in those three vets. And you're like... WHAT budding contender??

 

Well, I think we are closer than you think. I believe that what we saw last playoffs is more indicative of what this team is. Now, of course, we relied on our goaltending too much but again, I feel that could be largely solved by better chemistry and structure. 

 

I think if we hadn't lost Petey and hadn't gone though this whole Covid BS that we would still be talking playoffs, with really the start of the season primarily to blame for it even being close.

 

Oh, I would not move Miller. I think he's an excellent compliment to our top 6 group... despite a couple warts. His contract is quite alright too. I truly love having Boeser on the team, but he's going to be pricey. I could see a case to be made for moving him if need be, but it would leave us pretty dry on the right side.

 

Anyway, I say stay the course. I think there is still a team here that just requires tweaking to be successful. We just gotta figure out how to play defensively.

 

 

 

 

[appleboy]

New President for the Vancouver Canucks. John Davidson.

[Provost]

5 hours ago, kloubek said:

It isn't realistic to expect every player to be worth their contract imo. (And thereby being considered "worth something").

 

No one said it was.  When at least half your roster is filled with guys that no other team would take on waivers... that IS a big problem however.  That is where this team is at.

Even when we manage to get rid of some bad contracts, we have no realistic path to replace that dead weight with anything but more dead weight.  We won't actually have much cap space, we will be signing Petterson and Hughes to bridge deals so they will come up for renewal in 2-3 years.  In 2022 and 2023 we have Boeser due a big raise, we have to re-sign Horvat and Miller, we have to re-sign Hoglander who will be coming off his ELC.  We are then right back into extending Petterson and Hughes off their bridge deals.

The little money we do have somehow has to find us a couple more top 6 forwards, a couple of top 4 D... and a bunch of bottom of the roster guys that can actually contribute instead of being dead weight.  There really isn't much help coming from the farm.  Podkolzin and Rathbone will graduate to the big club... and then it is pretty much a wasteland of prospects.   Literally no one else who you can say has a really good chance of becoming a meaningful NHLer... lots of "maybe's" and guys who might be replacement level or worse players.

[4petesake]

50 minutes ago, Provost said:

No one said it was.  When at least half your roster is filled with guys that no other team would take on waivers... that IS a big problem however.  That is where this team is at.

Even when we manage to get rid of some bad contracts, we have no realistic path to replace that dead weight with anything but more dead weight.  We won't actually have much cap space, we will be signing Petterson and Hughes to bridge deals so they will come up for renewal in 2-3 years.  In 2022 and 2023 we have Boeser due a big raise, we have to re-sign Horvat and Miller, we have to re-sign Hoglander who will be coming off his ELC.  We are then right back into extending Petterson and Hughes off their bridge deals.

The little money we do have somehow has to find us a couple more top 6 forwards, a couple of top 4 D... and a bunch of bottom of the roster guys that can actually contribute instead of being dead weight.  There really isn't much help coming from the farm.  Podkolzin and Rathbone will graduate to the big club... and then it is pretty much a wasteland of prospects.   Literally no one else who you can say has a really good chance of becoming a meaningful NHLer... lots of "maybe's" and guys who might be replacement level or worse players.

Since we’ve all been speculating on cap space lately I took a few minutes this morning to put the figures in one place to make it easier to compare teams. I hope that the figures are accurate but if there are mistakes it’s due to early morning brain fog.

 

I’m not sure what to make of this yet but if it helps to prove anyone’s point, have at it.

 

 

[DSVII]

8 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

Since we’ve all been speculating on cap space lately I took a few minutes this morning to put the figures in one place to make it easier to compare teams. I hope that the figures are accurate but if there are mistakes it’s due to early morning brain fog.

 

I’m not sure what to make of this yet but if it helps to prove anyone’s point, have at it.

 

 

I think this picture and how it relates to our ability to compete in the future will rely on how much we pay Petey and Hughes.

 

And pointed out previously, Boeser, Bo and Miller are due for a raise, along with a cascading number of players from our core (After those turn UFA, then we have to re-up Petey/Hughes after their RFA deals). So we really only have the window of 22/23 to take advantage and make a push. 

 

I think a big decision is whether we view JT Miller as a Duchene piece we should trade away for premium picks and assets (blue chip prospects in the vein of Erik Brannstrom for Mark Stone) or we extend him and hope his twilight years starting in his 30s does not have a drastic decline in his game. With our track record so far in judging player production into their 30s as UFAs, I'm inclined to go the Duchene route.

 

How the team is constructed leading up to this will determine whether we can sustain that success, or whether it is one and done like the 2020 playoff run.

Edited May 6, 2021 by DSVII

[4petesake]

4 minutes ago, DSVII said:

I think this picture and how it relates to our ability to compete in the future will rely on how much we pay Petey and Hughes.

 

And pointed out previously, Bo and Miller are due for a raise, along with a cascading number of players from our core. So we really only have the window of 22/23 to take advantage and make a push. 

 

How the team is constructed leading up to this will determine whether we can sustain that success, or whether it is one and done like the 2020 playoff run.

That is true, so to fairly compare teams you would have to see which core players from all teams are due for renewal.

 

I thought that if we’re going to talk about cap hell we should at least see what the other Canadian teams are up against to know if we are in a better or worse position.

[Crabcakes]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

New President for the Vancouver Canucks. John Davidson.

Quality guy.  Good communicator.  He's 68, does he want it?

[Crabcakes]

6 hours ago, kloubek said:

It isn't realistic to expect every player to be worth their contract imo. (And thereby being considered "worth something"). Players decline, get injured, or otherwise underpeform all the time. The best GMs manage to mitigate it as well as possible, but I bet you could look at any NHL roster and pick out a handful of guys most other GMs would really want given their contract price. In some cases, several.

 

Yes, we are still overpaying for bottom six guys, thanks to Bennings off-season signings from hell which were meant to teach our young guys how to play the "right way". Yes, LE continues to be a thorn in our side. Those contracts will be gone soon. 

 

Then what do we do with the cap space? Trade for higher cap star players or sign UFAs. Now, you say you don't want to overpay for UFAs which is fair, but I think you don't need AS much overpayment to bring a good player to a budding contender as we did when we brought in those three vets. And you're like... WHAT budding contender??

 

Well, I think we are closer than you think. I believe that what we saw last playoffs is more indicative of what this team is. Now, of course, we relied on our goaltending too much but again, I feel that could be largely solved by better chemistry and structure. 

 

I think if we hadn't lost Petey and hadn't gone though this whole Covid BS that we would still be talking playoffs, with really the start of the season primarily to blame for it even being close.

 

Oh, I would not move Miller. I think he's an excellent compliment to our top 6 group... despite a couple warts. His contract is quite alright too. I truly love having Boeser on the team, but he's going to be pricey. I could see a case to be made for moving him if need be, but it would leave us pretty dry on the right side.

 

Anyway, I say stay the course. I think there is still a team here that just requires tweaking to be successful. We just gotta figure out how to play defensively.

 

 

 

 

Yep, closer than many people think.

 

It's really frustrating watching the Canucks right now because they're gassed and still getting over a 3 week lay off and Covid and there's little time for recovery between games due to the hyper compressed schedule.  And the line up is full of kids and band aids.  This season is a write off.

 

Which players from this "audition" are looking like they will stick? 

 

Virtanten No

Motte Yes

Vessy No

Lind Maybe

MacEwen Maybe

Hawryluk Maybe

Highmore No

Mickaelis No

Boyd Maybe

Graovac No

Rathbone Maybe

Juolevi Yes

Chatfield No

 

I think the Maybe's have a shot in camp.  I'd put my money on Lind but I think they at least have a position in the system and whether they are on the active roster depends on team depth and which veterans are actually back.  I see Eriksson bought out for example.  Are Beagle and Roussel coming back?  Bailey I think is AHL depth behind MacEwen

 

They really need a decent 3C.  That'll make a real difference in the bottom 6 because some production is going to be required.  Is it Sutter re-signed at $2.5?  Podkolzin may have a 3rd line spot to start the season 

 

Miller Petey Boeser

Pearson Horvat Hoglander

XXXXXX Sutter? Podkolzin

XXXXXX XXXXX Motte