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Seven years without a clear plan from Canucks brass.

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15 minutes ago, Provost said:

I put out various draft lists at the time and who we would have ended up with based on all the other major draft lists and BPA when we picked.  It was in a couple of threads about drafting.

Benning came out above average, but worse than some of the others... so ya, most of our draft success is based on how bad we have been for so long and how high we have been drafting.

The only clear "winner" that Benning picked over almost everyone else was Petterson.  Hughes and Boeser would have been picked by most lists where they were selected. On the other side guys like Nylander, Tkachuk, Ehlers, Pastrnak, etc were on those other lists that we missed on with Virtanen and Juolevi. 

Just listening to a guy like Craig Button who isn't paid by any team to scout and is a TV talking head, we end up with:

2014 - Ehlers, Kempe
2015 - B
oeser

2016 - Tkachuk
2017 - Glass
2018 - Hughes

I think Petterson is great, but no one is trading both Ehlers and Tkachuk for him.

Thanks. And the second round and so forth?

 

Edit: I would consider trading Ehlers and Tkahuck for EP. One is a franchise center and the other two are top 6 wingers. EP + OJ for Ehlers + Tkachuk? I'd do that trade.

 

Also, EP is the pinnacle of JB's first round drafting. The season in which we finished 2nd worst, only to fall to 5th overall, just far enough to miss out on Makar and Heiskanen... only to draft a franchise center, makes up for the misses in 2014 first round.

 

And, 2014 2nd round gave us #1 goalie. 

 

To say that JB's drafting is overrated, we would have to look at the later rounds as well.

 

How many teams make good on their 2nd rounders and onwards?

 

Edited by khay
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Covid probably cost JB $4 million in CAP space. The lottery has dropped his draft position how many times? Beagle gave the Canucks a solid FO % when they really needed it. Ferland was a gamble but fans were sure excited when he signed. Ericksson, fans were excited. Love Rous but no. Letting Marky, Tanev and Stecher go was the right thing. Benning doesn't fold to fan angst and good for him. If he is a buyer by April and not a seller I will start to uncoil the rope. :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

So here’s my question to everyone. Are there more reasons to keep Benning as gm or are there more reasons to fire him? Please explain.

Far more reasons to keep him, based on his drafting alone.  Not only did he get Petey, Brock, Huggy, Hogs and Demko at well below what has turned out to be their market value, but we've yet to see how the addition of Pods and Olli full-time will impact the team.  Plus, he made the trades for Schmidt and Miller, both of which will yield long-term benefits at a fraction of the going rate.  This team will hit its stride in the next year or two as Petey and Huggy develop into all-purpose superstars.  Thanks to several years of win-now management and horrible drafting by Gillis, JB has also had to re-stock the farm system.  It's been almost a decade since the Canucks' AHL affiliate provided quality 3rd and 4th line players the way established winners do.  You'll recall that the 2010-11 Canucks had Burrows, Bieksa, Hansen, Kesler, Raymond Rypien, Tanev, Schneider, Hodgson, and Edler all of whom spent half a season or more in Manitoba before making the big club.  We have yet to see that kind of pipeline established with Utica, but it's coming.  We are a year or so away from Utica regularly providing home-grown bottom six talent which is far less expensive than having to sign that talent as UFAs.  So far on the current roster of regulars (Olli doesn't count as a regular yet), only Demko, Jake, and Big Mac have spent significant time in Utica.

Edited by canuckleheads fan
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Always find people who hate on Benning so much hilarious. Especially the ones who wanted to bring Gillis back lol. Didn't we literally chant "fire gillis" during games? 

Anyways, the canucks were going to be atrocious no matter who was GM for the next 4 years after 2012-13, we had nothing but aging players and no young pieces. (Our aging pieces also had no move clauses) 

Yes he has made mistakes but so do all GMs, but he seems to have learned from them. His positives are far above average as well as it's amazing the amount of high end skill the team has acquired under his tenure. 

Trades have been better too, JT miller and schmidt say hi. Tanner Pearson too. 

People need to remember we were winning for an entire decade and getting division titles, presidents trophies, and as a result had a bare talent pipeline after all those years of success once our vets aged out. The fact we already have so much talent and have won a playoff round is awesome. Could be better ya sure, could also be the oilers from 2000- 2017 or the coyotes or the Panthers, or the blue jackets, or obviously buffalo.

The canucks rebuild has gone very well in the yes, i say short time it has been going on and the canucks were only abysmal for a few years even though we were great for so long. Now we are right back to being competitive and expecting to make the playoffs and in a few years win some rounds. (Forget the beginning of the season, it's an outlier over the past 100 games) 

This is so much better then the majority of the league, I don't know what people expected. 

Edited by cdgraham
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2 hours ago, DSVII said:

If the stated goal is to compete in two years (again, the goal post has changed from 2014, 2017), knowing this season is a write off. An eight game winning streak that takes you back to 0.500 doesn't change the need to evaluate your roster and off load assets that you may not plan to keep for that timeline in 2 years. So no, not all his assets, but players like Benn, Sutter, Pearson, if they are not to be in your roster in two years, should be shopped. 

 

 

 

I agree with that if we are out of the playoffs.  When you win 8 out of 10 games you are not out of a playoff spot.  Now after what has happened the last 2 weeks that has changed again.  Benning said we are 2 years away from competing.  He didn't say we were going to trade all of our expiring contracts to acquire assets and forget about the playoffs for 2 years.  He simply said those assets would eventually be replaced by the kids, which is what will happen next year and the year after.  

 

Also, what exactly do you think Benning is going to get for Benn?  A 5th rounder?  Is a 5th rounder going to change our future?  Pearson is injured so you can't trade him.  And Sutter has a $4 million cap hit, so it's not easy just to trade him to a contender.  Most teams who are contending don't have any salary cap space to fit Sutter or Pearson on their team without the Canucks taking salary back.  Would you want to trade Sutter to get a 3rd rounder back plus a salary dump that goes into next year?  It's not as easy as you think to trade these guys with the large cap hits right now.

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1 hour ago, Convincing John said:

It’s not so complex. Look at it what is literally in front of us. We have been at the bottom of the league for roughly 6 years now and we have spent the maximum amount in all those years. He isn’t getting the results, plain and simple.  If he just put his pen away every summer since he started. We would have the same core, possibly more and we would have maximum cap flexibility to insulate them. You don’t insulate a core before you have a core. All his UFA spending hasn’t gotten this team any further ahead, it’s only impeded our progress. 

Not complex?  No one, including you, could have predicted:

 

1.  COVID - the cap was supposed to go up and that was part of the "planning".   So this is a big complexity.   

2.  The schedule that's been caused by that (crazy...ours is the worst in the league)

3.  Tryamkin falling in love/bolting (thanks for nothing)

4.  Ferland getting ko'd and basically being a one and done (sure, you could predict uncertainty with him, but had he not he would have been a HUGE asset in relation to toughness).  Was a roll of the dice.

5.  Etc.

 

When you have moving parts to deal with and a lot is based on history that doesn't always pan out, it IS complex.

 

You're right...we didn't have a core to insulate.  This was 6 years ago.  A pretty big "to do" list and when you look at where we are now, we have a core and the future looks bright (even if those expecting a cup YESTERDAY don't see it).  Seems that's been kind of successful...even if the supporting cast isn't/hasn't been.  All teams will have guys who come/go and aren't huge difference makers.  Yes, some at a cost because this league works that way.  Supply/demand.

 

Again...it certainly hasn't been perfect but we're in fairly good shape in the near future.  Could be MUCH worse.

 

Not sure how you feel our progress has been impeded...guys who were just inserted in the line up over the past few years are flourishing.  They gave it a good go last year...doesn't matter the "why's and how's" of how they got there.  What matters is they did. 

 

Goaltenders ARE huge and the fact that we've hidden behind some stellar goaltending is our blessing, not a curse.  Gives us a buffer to work within.  

 

This team needs a bit more patience/time before people lose their minds.  The 6-7 year timelines is Benning's, not the pieces he's put in place....some of that's fairly recent.  Let's see how the dust settles as they do find their place in the league/on the team and start to work toward some normality.

 

16 games with 4 back to backs and 4 days off out of 27?  That's a complex schedule to work with.

 

image.png

 

So you want to base on 6 years but we swapped out the entire core....Bo and Jake were the only ones even part of that 6 years ago.  That, up there ^ is what the starting point was.   I'd say we're doing ok.

 

A work in progress, for sure...but you have to allow for that.   You have to see how/if chemistry develops and tweak on the fly.

 

It's been the past 2-3 years that the core has been set into place and is just now really establishing itself as such.  Give them time to settle in?

 

The instant gratification just isn't reasonable no matter how you try to dumb it down.

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good topic, thank you OP :)

 

it is far too late for a complete rebuild........... we will never be a terrible team with the current players we have...... to do a complete rebuild = goodbye EP, QH, TD etc.. very controversial but maybe we should do that.

 

they should have done it but probably didn't for a combo of 2 reasons: 1) revenue hit, 2) treatment of the sedans...

 

at some point, the Canucks should have gone to the Sedins and said "we need to move you........ we will try to move you together and to a place of your choice provided it works out reasonably well for us too.... if necessary, we will trade you individually but with lots of input from you"

 

they didn't do that. so Canucks paid the price to some degree.

 

having said that, what would a complete tank have looked like.... being a terrible team so you can draft young star players. you mean, like EP and QH..... so because of JB's drafting acumen we got some of the benefits of a complete rebuild without actually being a horrible team.

 

now the players we have need to play better (on the players and coach)  and the coach/GM need to fill out the roster cheaply and create better chemistry/defensive hockey than currently exists... and we probably need a top 2-3 defenceman or two. that won't be easy.

 

JB on the free agents was terrible............ I assume if we kept our powder dry, then tanev and tuffoli could still be here. and JM could have been traded for something decent. or TD......or was there a minimum spend we have to hit?

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10 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

When you win 8 out of 10 games you are not out of a playoff spot.

You are unless you believe in the mirage.

 

That run was never going to be sustainable. You were essentially asking Demko to play as good as any goalie has ever played... ever.
 

And if Benning changed course during that time, that's troubling.

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4 hours ago, appleboy said:

I agree that the club has drafted well under Jim. We all do. 

So is that the plan? Fumble through year after year with no direction?        How many extra draft picks could have been acquired if there was an organized plan to maximize assets?

What would your PLAN be for the teams next 5 years? Please tell us

 

Mine:

-Continue to draft well 

-get assets in return for expiring vets

-sign your core players to fair contracts 

-surround core players with quality players 

-possibly a new coaching staff 

- trade assets that are not long term fit 

-showcase an exciting game style experience for fans 

-make money/profit

-win the stanley cup

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

 

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1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

You are unless you believe in the mirage.

 

That run was never going to be sustainable. You were essentially asking Demko to play as good as any goalie has ever played... ever.
 

And if Benning changed course during that time, that's troubling.

So you believe it’s wise for a GM to tell players it’s OK to give up before it’s over?

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12 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

Not complex?  No one, including you, could have predicted:

 

1.  COVID - the cap was supposed to go up and that was part of the "planning".   So this is a big complexity.   

2.  The schedule that's been caused by that (crazy...ours is the worst in the league)

3.  Tryamkin falling in love/bolting (thanks for nothing)

4.  Ferland getting ko'd and basically being a one and done (sure, you could predict uncertainty with him, but had he not he would have been a HUGE asset in relation to toughness).  Was a roll of the dice.

5.  Etc.

 

When you have moving parts to deal with and a lot is based on history that doesn't always pan out, it IS complex.

 

You're right...we didn't have a core to insulate.  This was 6 years ago.  A pretty big "to do" list and when you look at where we are now, we have a core and the future looks bright (even if those expecting a cup YESTERDAY don't see it).  Seems that's been kind of successful...even if the supporting cast isn't/hasn't been.  All teams will have guys who come/go and aren't huge difference makers.  Yes, some at a cost because this league works that way.  Supply/demand.

 

Again...it certainly hasn't been perfect but we're in fairly good shape in the near future.  Could be MUCH worse.

 

Not sure how you feel our progress has been impeded...guys who were just inserted in the line up over the past few years are flourishing.  They gave it a good go last year...doesn't matter the "why's and how's" of how they got there.  What matters is they did. 

 

Goaltenders ARE huge and the fact that we've hidden behind some stellar goaltending is our blessing, not a curse.  Gives us a buffer to work within.  

 

This team needs a bit more patience/time before people lose their minds.  The 6-7 year timelines is Benning's, not the pieces he's put in place....some of that's fairly recent.  Let's see how the dust settles as they do find their place in the league/on the team and start to work toward some normality.

 

16 games with 4 back to backs and 4 days off out of 27?  That's a complex schedule to work with.

 

image.png

  

So you want to base on 6 years but we swapped out the entire core....Bo and Jake were the only ones even part of that 6 years ago.  That, up there ^ is what the starting point was.   I'd say we're doing ok.

 

A work in progress, for sure...but you have to allow for that.   You have to see how/if chemistry develops and tweak on the fly.

 

It's been the past 2-3 years that the core has been set into place and is just now really establishing itself as such.  Give them time to settle in?

 

The instant gratification just isn't reasonable no matter how you try to dumb it down.

The thing is, the gripes have more to do with the individual transactions than patience/timeline.

 

I never expected us to win a cup by 2021. But I do expect the GM not to do dumb things, and Benning did enough dumb things years ago to warrant his firing IMO.

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5 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

So you believe it’s wise for a GM to tell players it’s OK to give up before it’s over?

Of course not. I'm just hoping behind closed doors the plan to sell had never changed despite the "run".

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We are trending in the right direction.  Like we could be Buffalo how does that sound?  The players that matter most will be here for years to come and we will be in a great position to build around them.  Top 15 pick this year to add to the depth will only help.  

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17 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

So you believe it’s wise for a GM to tell players it’s OK to give up before it’s over?

I think the players have to be held accountable and have to realize that it’s a consequence of playing so poorly. If you don’t want things to change, play better. He can’t just let things be either. If they are angry they have to accept responsibility for putting the gm in that position. You can’t pretend there is a chance of making the playoffs for the sake of the players.

Edited by Canuckfanforlife82
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11 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Of course not. I'm just hoping behind closed doors the plan to sell had never changed despite the "run".

OK then let’s at least agree that there is nothing Benning could have or should have done during that 8 for 10 streak. 

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5 hours ago, apollo said:

i was fired up typing fast, i meant to say calder winner or runner up :)

 

brock and quinn both 2nd... also look at Quinn #'s vs Makar RN or Barzal...

 

Compare their stats, they're 3 clear winners if you look at it now, why can't u see that?

I’m not against hapyy, cheering posts but denial isn’t good. 
A gm does more than draft players.

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2 minutes ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

I think the players have to be held accountable and have to realize that it’s a consequence of playing so poorly. If you don’t want things to change, play better. He can’t just let things be either. If they are angry they have to accept responsibility for putting the gm in that position.

That’s true but he can’t do that while they are winning 8 out of 10 or it sends the wrong message. I think he has more leeway now and I hope he proceeds to try and move out the UFAs or any of the bottom six that we can get any value for.

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14 minutes ago, flat land fish said:

We are trending in the right direction.  Like we could be Buffalo how does that sound?  The players that matter most will be here for years to come and we will be in a great position to build around them.  Top 15 pick this year to add to the depth will only help.  

Want to have your mind blown? Imagine for a moment if Buffalo never had Dominik Hasek. 30+ years of losing with that single omission.

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