Seven years without a clear plan from Canucks brass.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Marv-the-wet-bandit said:

I agree the team wasn’t in good shape when he took the team over, the roster was generally bad but they did have some pieces that could have been moves, not for the moon and the stars but they could have seen themselves into a much better position. Kesler trade should have been handled much differently. Burrows should have landed us a pick or prospect that worked out, Benning went with Dahlen who was highly thought of at the time but we move him for another long shot prospect and most likely both players never work out in the NHL and it’s his job to evaluate talent, which he does well in the draft so maybe add picks. Hansen for Goldobin is also similar to Dahlen in terms of highly skilled but no substance when he played so Hansen essentially turned into nothing and Hamhuis went for zero when at the time he could have added a pick, not a first and probably not a second but get something. Asset management. I just think he’s been here for 7 years and I don’t have faith in him to do the job. A failed re tool and a half assed rebuild where he rarely added any extra picks and moved out a lot so from my perspective I’ve seen enough and would like a change. He does well at the draft table but doesn’t give himself enough picks and his asset management, trades and signings are poor as a whole

Fwiw, Karlsson is trending relatively well (as far as a depth prospects go).

 

And these are the types of returns you get from #asset management. I find it quite humorous to read people complaining about the returns while at the same time complaining that not doing more of them is the reason we're not 'further along'. Oh the ironing! 

 

I have zero desire to rehash Hamhuis. If people still want to myopically claim we should have got something there. You refuse to face reality.

[knucklehead91]

24 minutes ago, Marv-the-wet-bandit said:

Did you look at the schedules? See how similar they are? You’re insane. I never said the rebuild started once he took over. I said it should have, what’s your reading comprehension level? I agree he tried to re took the first few years which was a MISTAKE and his version of the re took FAILED MISERABLY. Is there something you don’t understand about that? You just say the same things over and over. Broken clock except you aren’t right twice a day. I didn’t say he should have re signed those guys, if he had the cap space I’m sure he would have in his own merit though. He didn’t have enough leash to ha g himself with last off season or he would have. You clearly like all his signings and trades. I know you somehow don’t hold him responsible for all of his mistakes, you keep saying it’s Mike Gillis’ fault lol. And again, he sucked too. I wouldn’t have signed those old players. I would have started the rebuild when I first got there and wouldn’t have attempted to convince the fans that it was a short term re tool that would have us contending in a couple years, like he tried. Don’t assume you know what I would have done, you know nothing. And go look at the schedules you keep claiming was so rough on us to start the year. Go look at our record the 15 games prior to covid you claim we were so hot in. Then you’ll see the facts in black and white. Eliminate the grey area. And stop quoting me. This is a discussion that goes in circles. We both want the Canucks to do well you just think Benning should be given more time, I think his time should be over. Shut up and move on with this discussion. Hopefully in the end we both get what we want and that’s a contending team

How many times do I have to say it?? WHAT PART OF OWNERSHIP CONTROL DO YOU NOT COMPREHEND. Its pretty well known that Aquaman is a hands on owner and very involved. THE REBUILD WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL THE SEDINS RETIRE. THAT IS NOT IN BENNINGS CONTROL. 
 

Look at it from this perspective. In 2013 what was the future? Horvat

In 2016 what did the future look like? Horvat Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi, Demko

 

in 2018 what did the future look like? Horvat, Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi, Lockwood, Demko, Pettersson, Rathbone, DiPietro, Gadjovich, Lind

How about the future in 2020?  Horvat, Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi, Lockwood, Demko, Pettersson, Rathbone, DiPietro, Gadjovich, Lind, Hughes, Woo, Podkolzin, Hoglander etc etc etc.... 

 

6 years of failed drafting by Gillis led to the absolute collapse of the franchise. We could not keep retooling on the fly with prospects to slot in for aging vets. 

Burke’s drafting was the foundation for a decade of competitive hockey. It was crucial for Gillis to draft well in the transitional years. He came out with nothing but Horvat, that isnt enough to keep a franchise going. Benning has had to build from the ground up after the Sedins retired. That forced Aquaman to accept his fate as an owner and to support a full rebuild. 
 

edit: Ive said this earlier but will repeat it again so you dont blow a gasket. Virtanen may or may not be part of the future depending on how this whole situation he is in plays out. But for now he is still on the roster so he is still part of the future for now.

Edited May 17, 2021 by knucklehead91

[Marv-the-wet-bandit]

3 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

How many times do I have to say it?? WHAT PART OF OWNERSHIP CONTROL DO YOU NOT COMPREHEND. Its pretty well known that Aquaman is a hands on owner and very involved. THE REBUILD WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL THE SEDINS RETIRE. THAT IS NOT IN BENNINGS CONTROL. 
 

Look at it from this perspective. In 2013 what was the future? Horvat

In 2016 what did the future look like? Horvat Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi, Demko

 

in 2018 what did the future look like? Horvat, Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi, Lockwood, Demko, Pettersson, Rathbone, DiPietro, Gadjovich, Lind

How about the future in 2020?  Horvat, Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi, Lockwood, Demko, Pettersson, Rathbone, DiPietro, Gadjovich, Lind, Hughes, Woo, Podkolzin, Hoglander etc etc etc.... 

 

6 years of failed drafting by Gillis led to the absolute collapse of the franchise. We could not keep retooling on the fly with prospects to slot in for aging vets. 

Burke’s drafting was the foundation for a decade of competitive hockey. It was crucial for Gillis to draft well in the transitional years. He came out with nothing but Horvat, that isnt enough to keep a franchise going. Benning has had to build from the ground up after the Sedins retired. That forced Aquaman to accept his fate as an owner and to support a full rebuild. 

You can say whatever you want, as much as you like but I stopped reading after the first sentence because you’re insane. Stop conversing with me. There’s no debate with you, you’re stuck in your ways

because you’re related to JB. Once you resorted to name calling I knew you lost any potential debate, though it was lost long before that. I shouldn’t have come back with name calling but when you deal with children you typically go to that level in an argument. Didn’t mean anything by it. But I will certainly no longer be reading anything you post so don’t feel obligated to continue talking to me

[Ballisticsports.]

4 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

So why did Benning trade our top C prospect and a 2nd for him then in the first place?

 

Toffoli is on a steal of a contract right now. Would it be as good in year 4? Who knows. Will Pearson's be good then? Who knows. Myers? Who knows. 

 

Benning not signing Toffoli was a stupid move considering the assets he paid to acquire him. Covid did not stop signing Holtby, trying to trade for OEL, etc. So your argument is that a 28 goal scorer who was also a ppg player is in massive decline? Just to support probably the stupidest decision by Benning since Eriksson?

 

Ok bud.

I remember posting at the time that signing TT was not what we needed and that defence wins championships It was obvious that defending was our weak point and our D were not getting any younger

Having said that once you committed to spending that for him, You had to make sure you "Didn't run out of time" to sign him (Why is it that fans who loved TT signing ,turn against him because even when JB wanted him back supposedly, they now defend JB, even though he wanted him)?

I had faith in Demko making it as a starter and was ok with Marky leaving as  he would be too old when our window opened and most likely might lose a younger Demko

exposed

Tanev wasn't only hurt because he committed to defence like EP does to Offence - Does the trade EP start because of injuries? It was because of his age and term and our cap that i was ok letting him go

Stetcher was cheap enough to keep

People "assumed" Tree was coming back, Like Manny and staff, why did they not want to finish what they started?

 

 

Now had they traded those TT assets on a quality dman like i had posted and had still picked up Schmidt and Hamonic, we would have been better off on Defence than we are now

[wallstreetamigo]

The argument continuing to be made by a certain someone (in order to absolve Benning from losing Toffoli being a huge mistake) is that Benning didnt want him because he was a redundant, declining player. 28 goals this year should put that thought to rest but it wont.

 

So lets see what Benning himself thinks of this theory, shall we?

 

This shows clearly that Benning was too focused on OEL and hedging his bets on Demko by signing Holtby, along with continuing to throw good money after bad on Virtanen. 

 

Self inflicted wound 100% and he admits it himself.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[Timråfan]

6 hours ago, aGENT said:

It wasn't 'nothing'.. but it sure wasn't much either. 

I can argue that he got us Petey because Inge Hammarström was hired when Gillis was GM.

Gillis revamped scouts and Benning benefits from that. 
Then we have what Benning did with all his drafts. Those coming into the Canucks at once seem to do great, Petey, Höglander… But those taking the Utica route, not so good.

Utica is credited Benning and read this:

https://cometsharvest.com/2021/05/14/comets-harvest-the-final-friday/

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Timråfan

[appleboy]

Having their AHL team in the lower main land will put more focus on how well they are developing players.

You won't be able to hide failures in a distant city any more. There will be as much media focus on the prospects as the NHL players.

 

[aGENT]

7 hours ago, Timråfan said:

I can argue that he got us Petey because Inge Hammarström was hired when Gillis was GM.

Gillis revamped scouts and Benning benefits from that. 
Then we have what Benning did with all his drafts. Those coming into the Canucks at once seem to do great, Petey, Höglander… But those taking the Utica route, not so good.

Utica is credited Benning and read this:

https://cometsharvest.com/2021/05/14/comets-harvest-the-final-friday/

 

 

I have no idea what this has to do with what the other poster and I were discussing.

 

Also smells a lot like a Comet fan complaining that the majority of our better prospects bypassed Utica and developed elsewhere (they did). Water is also wet FYI.

[aGENT]

6 hours ago, appleboy said:

Having their AHL team in the lower main land will put more focus on how well they are developing players.

You won't be able to hide failures in a distant city any more. There will be as much media focus on the prospects as the NHL players.

 

How many of those are 'development failures' though?

 

Most top prospects simply don't spend a lot of/any development time in the AHL. And the vast majority of our 'B' and 'C' prospects are/were still developing there and trending well (Lind, Gadjovich, Jasek, Focht, Lockwood, Woo etc).

 

Perhaps the list of very mediocre, long shot, and many drafted by the previously regime players... simply weren't good enough. That's the overwhelming majority of what you get from mid-late picks. Guys who don't make it.

[Timråfan]

35 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I have no idea what this has to do with what the other poster and I were discussing.

 

Also smells a lot like a Comet fan complaining that the majority of our better prospects bypassed Utica and developed elsewhere (they did). Water is also wet FYI.

When I read the post about Utica I thought it was a canuck fan.

Where did you get that it was a comets fan?

Edited May 17, 2021 by Timråfan

[VegasCanuck]

12 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

How many times do I have to say it?? WHAT PART OF OWNERSHIP CONTROL DO YOU NOT COMPREHEND. Its pretty well known that Aquaman is a hands on owner and very involved. THE REBUILD WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL THE SEDINS RETIRE. THAT IS NOT IN BENNINGS CONTROL. 
 

Look at it from this perspective. In 2013 what was the future? Horvat

In 2016 what did the future look like? Horvat Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi, Demko

 

in 2018 what did the future look like? Horvat, Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi, Lockwood, Demko, Pettersson, Rathbone, DiPietro, Gadjovich, Lind

How about the future in 2020?  Horvat, Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi, Lockwood, Demko, Pettersson, Rathbone, DiPietro, Gadjovich, Lind, Hughes, Woo, Podkolzin, Hoglander etc etc etc.... 

 

6 years of failed drafting by Gillis led to the absolute collapse of the franchise. We could not keep retooling on the fly with prospects to slot in for aging vets. 

Burke’s drafting was the foundation for a decade of competitive hockey. It was crucial for Gillis to draft well in the transitional years. He came out with nothing but Horvat, that isnt enough to keep a franchise going. Benning has had to build from the ground up after the Sedins retired. That forced Aquaman to accept his fate as an owner and to support a full rebuild. 
 

edit: Ive said this earlier but will repeat it again so you dont blow a gasket. Virtanen may or may not be part of the future depending on how this whole situation he is in plays out. But for now he is still on the roster so he is still part of the future for now.

Excellent post. It's amazing how few fans don't get this. This team is on track for what is planned. Draft well, develop well, plug holes with UFA's until the developing players are ready for prime time.

 

Fans seem to think that Benning should be held responsible for the fact that Covid collapsed the finances of the league and as a result, we weren't able to resign Toffoli. The trade to acquire Toffoli happened a few weeks after ALL GM's were told that they should expect cap to rise by roughly 4 million. Suddenly, COVID hits and we wind up in a flat cap.

 

Juolevi suffered injuries after being drafted, which slowed his development. Not the GM's fault, it could have just as easily been Tkachuk who had the injuries.

 

We are right on schedule for what was expected. The only thing not in line here, is fans expectations of how long it takes to develop young players through the draft.

 

The future looks bright, we have a lot of kids who are ready to start stepping into the NHL and being big parts of this team, because of patience, and we have a strong, healthy prospect funnel, for the FIRST TIME in the history of this team.

[VegasCanuck]

11 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The argument continuing to be made by a certain someone (in order to absolve Benning from losing Toffoli being a huge mistake) is that Benning didnt want him because he was a redundant, declining player. 28 goals this year should put that thought to rest but it wont.

 

So lets see what Benning himself thinks of this theory, shall we?

 

This shows clearly that Benning was too focused on OEL and hedging his bets on Demko by signing Holtby, along with continuing to throw good money after bad on Virtanen. 

 

Self inflicted wound 100% and he admits it himself.

 

Ran out of time = ran out of time to move out some cap space to make room to sign him. Flat cap meant that it was much harder for all teams to make trades. I really don't know why this is such a hard concept for fans to understand.

 

If the cap wasn't flat, Toffoli would likely still be with the team.

 

The OEL trade that they were working on had nothing to do with the team working on clearing cap space. Do you really think that a GM only works on one potential trade at a time? They discuss potential trade ideas with other GM's all day long. Very few of them ever get completed, there's a lot of hypothetical involved in running a team.

 

After this season, we are in much better shape to grow into next season, than a number of fans are willing to admit, or are unwilling to recognize because they like the fast fix that a GM used to be able to do in the NHL, before the cap became a reality.

[wallstreetamigo]

7 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

Ran out of time = ran out of time to move out some cap space to make room to sign him. Flat cap meant that it was much harder for all teams to make trades. I really don't know why this is such a hard concept for fans to understand.

 

If the cap wasn't flat, Toffoli would likely still be with the team.

 

The OEL trade that they were working on had nothing to do with the team working on clearing cap space. Do you really think that a GM only works on one potential trade at a time? They discuss potential trade ideas with other GM's all day long. Very few of them ever get completed, there's a lot of hypothetical involved in running a team.

 

After this season, we are in much better shape to grow into next season, than a number of fans are willing to admit, or are unwilling to recognize because they like the fast fix that a GM used to be able to do in the NHL, before the cap became a reality.

Thats just an excuse. 

 

Benning couldnt move that cap BEFORE covid. Because other teams dont want overpaid, underwhelming players. Add in ntc and you effectively remove any chance of moving them to the handful of teams who might be dumb enough to take them.

 

Toffoli was a Canuck for 8 months. That was lots of time to work out a deal.

 

The must have OEL focus absolutely impacted his ability to at least offer Toffoli a contract. He had obviously internally allocated that cap space for OEL and waited until that trade fell through to consider his own ufa guys. Hence the ran out of time. If you are working on multiple contingency plans its typically the actual opposite of running out of time.

[wallstreetamigo]

I dont see how our team is positioned well for next year tbh. EP and Hughes need to be signed now so the rest of the picture is clear. There wont be a ton of cap space yet and we still have a bunch of dead cap next season. 

 

And I know people assume the young players in our system are going to step in and be instantly contributing nhl players but thats far from a guarantee. Hopefully some do but relying on it is a bit premature.

[VegasCanuck]

4 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Thats just an excuse. 

 

Benning couldnt move that cap BEFORE covid. Because other teams dont want overpaid, underwhelming players. Add in ntc and you effectively remove any chance of moving them to the handful of teams who might be dumb enough to take them.

 

Toffoli was a Canuck for 8 months. That was lots of time to work out a deal.

 

The must have OEL focus absolutely impacted his ability to at least offer Toffoli a contract. He had obviously internally allocated that cap space for OEL and waited until that trade fell through to consider his own ufa guys. Hence the ran out of time. If you are working on multiple contingency plans its typically the actual opposite of running out of time.

Total speculation, you have zero ability do back that up with any actual, factual information. You have no idea what Benning was working on through those 8 months, NONE of us do!

 

[wallstreetamigo]

11 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

Total speculation, you have zero ability do back that up with any actual, factual information. You have no idea what Benning was working on through those 8 months, NONE of us do!

 

Well, we actually know what he wasnt working on because he himself admitted it.

[VegasCanuck]

9 hours ago, Timråfan said:

I can argue that he got us Petey because Inge Hammarström was hired when Gillis was GM.

Gillis revamped scouts and Benning benefits from that. 
Then we have what Benning did with all his drafts. Those coming into the Canucks at once seem to do great, Petey, Höglander… But those taking the Utica route, not so good.

Utica is credited Benning and read this:

https://cometsharvest.com/2021/05/14/comets-harvest-the-final-friday/

 

 

In Gillis's time as a GM, this is the list of players that he drafted who played more than 100 games in the NHL:

Bo Horvat, 499

Ben Hutton 379

Brendan Gaunce 118

Kevin Connauton 321

Jordon Schroeder 164

Cody Hogson 328

 

The only one of those guys who you could really say has been an impact player in the NHL was Bo Horvat. The reason we got Horvat was because Gillis mishandled the whole Luongo / Schneider situation and wound up in a MUST TRADE our future goalie. That trade worked out well in the long run, but considering there were 29 teams who realistically viewed Schneider as a home run prospect and a franchise goalie, the return should have been more at the time, than just a single 1st round pick.

 

Compare that to what Benning has delivered, not just in 1st rounds, but past the 1st round.

[VegasCanuck]

2 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Well, we actually know what he wasnt working on because he himself admitted it.

He was working on clearing space when no other teams were willing to take on cap space unless you were willing to throw major assets at them. It resulted in letting Toffoli walk.

 

He made the right decision and a decision that pretty much every other GM in the league would have made.

 

No GM is perfect, they all have strengths and weaknesses. GM is an exceptional drafter and developer, he's an ok trader and an okay UFA guy.

 

To win the cup and have long term success, you need an exceptional drafter more than anything else. We FINALLY have a prospect pool and a development funnel.

 

[Timråfan]

33 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

In Gillis's time as a GM, this is the list of players that he drafted who played more than 100 games in the NHL:

Bo Horvat, 499

Ben Hutton 379

Brendan Gaunce 118

Kevin Connauton 321

Jordon Schroeder 164

Cody Hogson 328

 

The only one of those guys who you could really say has been an impact player in the NHL was Bo Horvat. The reason we got Horvat was because Gillis mishandled the whole Luongo / Schneider situation and wound up in a MUST TRADE our future goalie. That trade worked out well in the long run, but considering there were 29 teams who realistically viewed Schneider as a home run prospect and a franchise goalie, the return should have been more at the time, than just a single 1st round pick.

 

Compare that to what Benning has delivered, not just in 1st rounds, but past the 1st round.

And Gillis/Benning isn’t the scouts who finds the players.

It’s better to say that Gillis scouts did a bad job and Bennings scouts is great. 
 

I think I have to repeat, Inge that got Petey to us was hired by Gillis. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Timråfan

[VegasCanuck]

2 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

And Gillis/Benning isn’t the scouts who finds the players.

It’s better to say that Gillis scouts did a bad job and Bennings scouts is great. 
 

I think I have to repeat, Inge that got Petey to us was hired by Gillis. 

The GM tells the Scouts, what type of players he's looking for and sets how he wants them to compete.

 

Read this article, then come back to me: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/canucks-recent-ascent-fuelled-draft-choices-judd-bracketts-tenure/