Seven years without a clear plan from Canucks brass.

[AV.]

36 minutes ago, VforVictory said:

So y'all are making the argument the team is worse off than when Benning took over? That is unmitigated bullpucky.

It's arguable, yes.

 

The Canucks in 2014 were an ageing squad that (in hindsight) lacked quality future pieces.  However, they were a competitive team and a playoff team.  We know this because they made the playoffs in the previous 5 years before that one season and would make the playoffs the immediate season after.  Even reflecting back, the Canucks were a playoff team during the 2014 year but an abysmal January and February (kind of like the one we had this season) derailed the team.  

 

When you look at this team, there are a series of quality young players, which is great (even if it is a consequence of finishing in the bottom five) but the team is also plagued with a ton of bad contracts and dead weight.  To boot, the asset management of this organization has been subpar, which has chipped away at the pro roster and prospect system, simultaneously.  And the most important factor in all of this is that this team simply doesn't win games.  This is to be expected during a rebuild but 7 years into it and the team is still losing like its the 2016 and 2017 season.  Dismal stuff.

 

So, when you compare the two teams, it might seem like the obvious choice to pick the 2021 version due to the young pieces (FWIW, I would pick this team) but this team is still leaps and bounds away from that 2014 team, which is quite pathetic and a testament to how much we've been losing since Benning's arrival.

 

[DSVII]

21 hours ago, aGENT said:

That's great for him in a rather small sample size for how the coach happens to be using him at the moment, but he's and under 20 minute D that's not first pairing any more than Myers is one at over 22 minutes.

Very well, if we expand the sample size to this entire regular season.

 

He averaged 19:57 TOI with a 0.40 ppg. That would make him 4th on ice time, 2nd in ppg, 3rd in pts on our defensemen this year. While he may not move the needle as a Top 2 D like Hedman or Shea Theodore, he's quality depth that this team desperately needs, depth that can successfully eat hard minutes that Benning has tried to chase via UFA and trades unsuccessfully.  

At the cost of $700k. 

 

Again I buy the plan described, trading a prospect like Forsling doesn't make any sense for any sort of 'build through the draft' plan. We were just impatient.

 

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That's debatable. He's still not the answer we're looking for.

The answer we're looking for is quality depth that can step into Sutter's role. I'm happy to revisit this question in the next season or two once we get more data. 

 

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I don't think it does. We'd still need an actual 3C and a RD. The exact same holes are still there.

I think you're kind of underselling McCann here. He's at least a few years ahead of our current C prospects and is more NHL ready. He would definitely make a difference to fill the void in our centre depth. 

 

Again, had we kept cost controlled players like Forsling or McCann, maybe the option to retain a RD like Tanev and Stecher could have been made with those cost savings. I know you don't like hypotheticals here, but it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see here. 

 

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Guys like Roussel, Sutter, Beagle, Motte, Pearson (who came via Gudbranson) etc helped furnish those minutes that allowed him to acclimate to the league so well and contribute to him winning the Calder.  They speak directly to the quality of support he recieved.

Think this is a stretch here. There are clearly guys brought in that have been looked upon as leaders (Tanev, Miller, Sutter) and praised by the players but how many times have you seen Petey speak about the depth guys as letting him acclimate? 

 

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Deployment may have been. Results wouldn't.

Canucks have been near the bottom in league winning % the last few years, right alongside Buffalo, OTT and NJD. I doubt the results would be that much worse, and it would have been a boon in higher draft picks that would be vital to any rebuild. 

 

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Then you interpret wrong. How do you interpret those numbers would look with lesser players and/or ill prepared kids foisted in to those hard minute roles? 

I would intepret it as a normal phase of a rebuild. Again you can still prepare the kids but you can have cheaper veterans that you don't pay premium for taking those hard minutes. 

 

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The former, sure. Again, I don't see where we're lacking in those 'B' and 'C' level prospects but absolutely, we could have had a few more if we'd done that.

 

The vets haven't blocked squat. That's complete nonsense. Any kids who've earned it are playing. Our roster is full of them. That's such a lazy, garbage take. You're better than that.

 

I think the benching of Goldobin after he scored a goal pretty much epitomized this take for me. How many times were rookies given short leashes on this team whereas guys like Roussel, Gagne, Sbisa, Gudbranson were allowed to continually stay on the ice to make mistakes and give up chances and goals. 

 

It's a take based on just watching the games and the optics. Granted it's better now, but this really didn't allow us to see more of what we had in McCann, Goldobin etc earlier. When you're rebuilding, I think it's essential to protect kids sure, but you also want to give them room to practice the craft rather than worry about what little mistake will get them benched while a veteran just stays on the ice for mistake after mistake. 

 

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Not nearly enough to equal a mountain. We're barely past speed bump.

That's fine I can acknowledge we have different thresholds of what constitutes a mountain or even a problem (i.e Myers) so happy to leave it at this. 

[aGENT]

58 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Very well, if we expand the sample size to this entire regular season.

 

He averaged 19:57 TOI with a 0.40 ppg. That would make him 4th on ice time, 2nd in ppg, 3rd in pts on our defensemen this year. While he may not move the needle as a Top 2 D like Hedman or Shea Theodore, he's quality depth that this team desperately needs, depth that can successfully eat hard minutes that Benning has tried to chase via UFA and trades unsuccessfully.  

At the cost of $700k. 

 

Again I buy the plan described, trading a prospect like Forsling doesn't make any sense for any sort of 'build through the draft' plan. We were just impatient.

 

We don't really need a Forsling though. If anything we need a top pair RD. Who knows, maybe we could have packaged him for one (though that's doubtful and going down a rabbit hole). We have loads of 2nd/3rd pair and left D depth. Look, I'm not suggesting it was some great move or not a loss. And I have no idea why Benning moved him, if there was something he didn't like or if it was just 'impatience' etc but I think your definitely overstating the impact.

 

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The answer we're looking for is quality depth that can step into Sutter's role. I'm happy to revisit this question in the next season or two once we get more data. 

Yeah, and that's not McCann. Honestly Lind or Jasek, though FAR less proven/developed, are far closer to the player type.

 

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I think you're kind of underselling McCann here. He's at least a few years ahead of our current C prospects and is more NHL ready. He would definitely make a difference to fill the void in our centre depth. 

 

Virtanen is a few years ahead of Podkolzin. I was saying last year that the latter had already made the former expendable (and wish we'd moved him). More developed =\= better and certainly not a better fit. I'm interested to see how we bridge that gap... do we find a trade, maybe with the ED making someone available? Do we just use some combination of Boyd, Graovac, Jasek and Lind and target Jenner as UFA in 22 and wait until then to actually 'fill' that hole?

 

Honestly McCann would probably have been a better fit for what we hoped Gaudette would be.. a decent, complimentary 3rd line W'er who could occasionally play C or 2nd line W with injuries. Honestly (other than age and that he doesn't play C) I prefer Pearson.

 

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Again, had we kept cost controlled players like Forsling or McCann, maybe the option to retain a RD like Tanev and Stecher could have been made with those cost savings. I know you don't like hypotheticals here, but it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see here. 

Tanev was never settling for the term we were going to offer him, regardless of us having more cap space. Stecher...I love the guy, heart of a lion, and he was surprisingly effective at his size, but wasn't likely ever a long term fit here either.

 

I think it's actually pretty funny how much is made of 'losing' these guys last summer. IMO especially with the view of competing in 2+ years, we made all the right moves (even if the early results weren't there). I frankly loved our off season... short of perhaps not clearing the cap to keep Toffoli.

 

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Think this is a stretch here. There are clearly guys brought in that have been looked upon as leaders (Tanev, Miller, Sutter) and praised by the players but how many times have you seen Petey speak about the depth guys as letting him acclimate? 

I'm not taking about leadership. At least not specifically. I'm talking about the guys who actually play the hard minutes and situations to furnish Pettersson with 70% o zone starts.

 

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Canucks have been near the bottom in league winning % the last few years, right alongside Buffalo, OTT and NJD. I doubt the results would be that much worse, and it would have been a boon in higher draft picks that would be vital to any rebuild. 

It would have been worse. And a lot of that low winning percentage was after these guys went down with injuries from playing those hard minutes. Most of these rebuild seasons we've been a bubble playoff team, or near to, thanks in large part to those guys, until they were injured. 

 

But sure, we would have got higher picks (and shelled kids).

 

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I would intepret it as a normal phase of a rebuild. Again you can still prepare the kids but you can have cheaper veterans that you don't pay premium for taking those hard minutes. 

Not as well. Not with out negative effects to the development of kids and likely worse team/winning culture.

 

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I think the benching of Goldobin after he scored a goal pretty much epitomized this take for me. How many times were rookies given short leashes on this team whereas guys like Roussel, Gagne, Sbisa, Gudbranson were allowed to continually stay on the ice to make mistakes and give up chances and goals. 

OMG that's a hilariously bad take!  Yes, Green benched him because he scored! You got it! Don't bother looking at the context of the score or time left in the game or what Goldobin's strengths/weaknesses are lol

 

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It's a take based on just watching the games and the optics. Granted it's better now, but this really didn't allow us to see more of what we had in McCann, Goldobin etc earlier. When you're rebuilding, I think it's essential to protect kids sure, but you also want to give them room to practice the craft rather than worry about what little mistake will get them benched while a veteran just stays on the ice for mistake after mistake. 

Sorry, but that's literally how this works nearly everywhere in the NHL (and where it doesn't, generally negatively effects development). You earn your spots. With how many kids we have playing, who HAVE earned their spots, your can't seriously have this as a take.

 

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That's fine I can acknowledge we have different thresholds of what constitutes a mountain or even a problem (i.e Myers) so happy to leave it at this. 

Sure.

[aGENT]

2 hours ago, steviewonder20 said:

Albert Einstein is widely credited with saying “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Welcome back JB and Green.

 

Hate to break it to you but that's fake quote bruh. Sorry.

[DS4quality]

17 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

I'm not a newer fan, I've been die hard since the 92-93 season.  So I'm used to having terrible teams in Vancouver.  What I'm not used to is having zero faith in ownership/management.  After 7 years I've had enough.  I'm just venting, wouldn't straight up switch teams.  But I just might have a 2nd team while the clownshow in Vancouver continues.

You've literally nailed my exact feelings.  It's disappointing to feel this way, now I know how all my friends in Edmonton felt the past decade while Chiarelli was in charge.

He got them McDavid, Draisatl,  Nurse, Nugent-Hopkins (albeit through some draft luck), the pieces the Oilers are using in the playoffs right now. 

But he was terrible with everything else. Eventually ownership got a decorated GM to come steer the ship in the right direction, and I'm not saying the Oilers are the team to follow, but they look like a completely different team with Ken Holland in charge than they did with Chiarelli.  

What really turned me off was how Linden was treated by the organization,  he got moved out for wanting to do things right. 

 

It's going to take a lot more than hiring the Sedins to regain my confidence in the organization. 

[steviewonder20]

45 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

Hate to break it to you but that's fake quote bruh. Sorry.

The sentiment remains :-)

[steviewonder20]

53 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

Hate to break it to you but that's fake quote bruh. Sorry.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/einstein-s-parable-of-quantum-insanity/

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, steviewonder20 said:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/einstein-s-parable-of-quantum-insanity/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/amp/

[steviewonder20]

12 minutes ago, aGENT said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/amp/

Nice, thanks. Still don’t agree with bringing JB back.

[Bertuzzipunch]

23 minutes ago, aGENT said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/amp/

Is that albert einstein or john garret?

[steviewonder20]

23 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Main Positives:

Trading for Miller and Schmidt

Drafting EP, Hughes, Boeser, Hoglander, and Demko

Good RFA deals so far other than Virtanen

 

Main Negatives:

Most UFA signings

Cap Mismanagement

Drafting Virtanen and Juolevi at those spots

Inability to utilize cap space to accumulate assets

Letting UFA walk for nothing

Trading picks and prospects for trash

Trade prices for Sutter and Gudbranson

Building a terrible bottom 6

Continually retooling under the guise of a rebuild.

 

This is the best and most succinct summary of why JB should have been dumped that I’ve read. Well done. The addition I would suggest is JB signing more ntc and nmc than any other GM (yes I know they expire after next year).

[appleboy]

Podkolzin looks like a promising young player.  Add him to Hoglaonder , Hughes , Demko , Petey , Boeser , Horvat and Rathbone . Notables; ( OJ ,Lind and.......)

 

What would this club look like if the owners had of given Linden and Jim the go to blow the team up seven years ago. Accumulate assets and focus on drafting. How many more high profile young players would we have in our system? 

[Fred65]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

Podkolzin looks like a promising young player.  Add him to Hoglaonder , Hughes , Demko , Petey , Boeser , Horvat and Rathbone . Notables; ( OJ ,Lind and.......)

 

What would this club look like if the owners had of given Linden and Jim the go to blow the team up seven years ago. Accumulate assets and focus on drafting. How many more high profile young players would we have in our system? 

A lot better

[IBatch]

On 5/21/2021 at 2:21 PM, aGENT said:

 

Hate to break it to you but that's fake quote bruh. Sorry.

Wasn't it L Ron Hubbard that said " definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"?   Or was it Jesus.   Can't remember either - probably some college student who wanted to earn some money so printed that quote on a T-Shirt with Einstein and made a quick buck.    Or some soccer Mom trying to get her kid to stop chasing the ball all game. 

[IBatch]

On 5/30/2021 at 2:06 PM, appleboy said:

Podkolzin looks like a promising young player.  Add him to Hoglaonder , Hughes , Demko , Petey , Boeser , Horvat and Rathbone . Notables; ( OJ ,Lind and.......)

 

What would this club look like if the owners had of given Linden and Jim the go to blow the team up seven years ago. Accumulate assets and focus on drafting. How many more high profile young players would we have in our system? 

That was never possible without taking a terrible stance with that core, two years after a presidents trophy and all re-signed with NMC or full NTC and saying "sorry we won't honour them - give us a list of teams or expect to be benched" or something like that.   Good luck ever getting a good or any for that matter, UFAs coming here for a very long time.  

 

The time to do it was BEFORE MG signed the twins to their last deal ... would have let them walk for nothing and then that's what folks would be complaining about, and building the team around Schneider and Kesler.    

 

Don't understand why some people don't get that.   It's not at all how the league is run, betrayal and mistrust is not a good way to start your tenure.   Just be glad it failed and we didn't end up like SJ.    The only club i'd rather have right now that rebuilt in the same time period (and a lot more really) is CAR.   9 years without a playoff appearance.   We had to "suffer through" four.   And watch our draft slot slip the entire time.  

 

JB isn't on the hook for the re-tool.   That's 95% on MG and ownership.   No way any GM would have come in and "blew it up" under those circumstances. Just be happy it lasted at most 3 years.   LE signing, drafting a young core that was better then anticipated and timing the contracts wrong is on JB.   All of it.  Personally i'm a little surprised he pulled it off, never thought we had a chance.   Detroit and SJ will become interesting case studies in comparison.    Those are our best comps.   Did a full reviews of every rebuilding team during the 2010-2020's.    You might be a little stumped to reply, but the average rebuild (and as haven't been doing it really since 2017), takes close to a full decade these days on average.    JB is pacing it or a little ahead of schedule and that's the facts.  

[PhillipBlunt]

7 years without a clear plan? Try 54 years.

 

[spook007]

2 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

7 years without a clear plan? Try 54 years.

 

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

7 years without a clear plan? Try 54 years.

 

Did your Leafs lose last night and just can't help but displace your grief onto this forum?   Canucks are at the very least, gathering more home grown talent then we've had since maybe the Linden years and the Milford ones.    Funny thing about the Leafs games.  Reading the comments it's pretty obvious not everyone on here is actually a Canuck fan.   Snitchzel's defense of Marner was almost manic.    Personally i've enjoyed every season i've followed the Canucks. The downs make the ups feel that much nicer. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by IBatch

[JM_]

On 5/21/2021 at 11:21 AM, aGENT said:

 

Hate to break it to you but that's fake quote bruh. Sorry.

its OK, none of them have read Ayn Rand or 1984 either. 

[PhillipBlunt]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Did your Leads lose last night and just can't help but displace your grief onto this forum?   Canucks are at the very least, gathering more home grown talent then we've had since maybe the Linden years and the Milford ones.    Funny thing about the Leafs games.  Reading the comments it's pretty obvious not everyone on here is actually a Canuck fan.   Snitchzel's defense of Marner was almost manic.    Personally i've enjoyed every season i've followed the Canucks. The downs make the ups feel that much nicer. 

My Leads? What are you on about?