what did we gain by not re-signing any of Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli?

[JM_]

29 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Maybe, but look at the game we're playing here lol

 

X and Y hypothetical scenarios that would make us a slightly better bubble team.

 

In other words: we're not good. 

2 wins and we're as good as MTL 

 

I don't like "excuses" either but its reasonable to me that a team, this year, could have hit an extended weird patch thats not really representative of who they are. I'd be a lot more concerned if this was just a normal year. 

 

Anyway, its toast so its all academic. I'm hoping Petey and Hughes come in around 6ish mil each, get rid of Rooster, maybe buyout Holtby. Heck if we can do that we can even survive paying Loui. 

[aGENT]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

yeah i figured you'd think the standings in their division matter.   They don't.   Pay attention.   MIN is a team we can beat, as is St. Louis.   It's by far the weakest division right now, as long as Seattle = ARI next year, we are in gravy.   SJ, LA and ANA all are going to suffer for awhile.   

Your right. Bad teams playing eachother and having a similar record to us, playing in a better division, is in fact a thing. You can't compare win % from a worse division and claim that as equal... It's completely myopic and oversimplified.

 

Add to that our far worse than 'normal' start and it's not a solid argument. At all.

[kanucks25]

7 minutes ago, The Lock said:

The problem with this way of thinking though is you yourself have to be very specific in order to make these claims (ie. top 3 teams in every division). None of this accounts for how good or bad a division is, teams that are doing better than expected, teams that are doing worse than expected. It's effectively just saying "we're bad" and nitpicking something that otherwise would say absolutely nothing.

How would it say absolutely nothing? The point wasn't to create some sort of nuanced criteria (which it isn't) but more to group together the best teams in the league and ask: are we even close to them?

 

There's really only 1 division in which we'd still have a legit shot at the #4 spot. If the divisions were normal, Vegas and EDM would be at the top and we'd be fighting for a spot with ARI, LAK, SJS & CGY. So how much has really changed here?

 

I think we've all watched enough hockey to surmise that this team probably wouldn't be too great regardless of what division it's in. And what does it say about the team that we're actually using the excuse of "not being in a bad division" as a legitimate reason for this season's failures.

 

13 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Is St. Louis a bad team?

They're not awful but they're not the same team that won the Cup. Not saying I expected them to miss the playoffs but wouldn't be shocked if they did.

 

15 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Is Arizona a good team since they're doing better?

They're not a very good team but you don't have to be very good to be better than us.

 

15 minutes ago, The Lock said:

There's a lot more grey than just saying "we're good" or "we're bad".

I mean, there is grey as to why we're bad. We can discuss those things if you want but everyone pretty much already knows them. That doesn't mean that we aren't simply bad, though.

 

16 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I see a bad season due to standings, but not a bad team. There is a difference there.

We can agree to disagree.

[kanucks25]

14 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

2 wins and we're as good as MTL 

Well in the name of accuracy: we'd have to win 3 games to tie MTL and then they'd have 6 games in hand.

 

14 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

but its reasonable to me that a team, this year, could have hit an extended weird patch thats not really representative of who they are.

Possible. I don't see it, simply based on the team on paper regardless of the virus and whatnot, but we can agree to disagree.

Edited April 5, 2021 by kanucks25

[kanucks25]

18 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Your right. Bad teams playing eachother and having a similar record to us, playing in a better division, is in fact a thing. You can't compare win % from a worse division and claim that as equal... It's completely myopic and oversimplified.

Okay, let's do it an easier way.

 

Currently the Canucks are 24th in points%.

 

Make a list out of the 23 teams ahead of us that you can legitimately say with a straight face that we're definitely better than?

 

You know, if everything was equal and the world wasn't out to get the Vancouver Canucks...

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I don't believe that myself, had we come out with a better start we'd be within a game or two of Montreal and we are a better team than Calgary. 

 

I just think we're more capable than maybe you do of having more sustained success. Of course Demko was on fire, but there was also a lot of good play there too from the rest of the team. I'm not thrilled with Green's style, I don't like all of the shots we bleed but it is what it is.

 

One thing I am disappointed in is Holtby, had he won even 2 more games we'd actually be putting a little bit of pressure on MTL. So thats why I don't see us being "bad" vs. having some $&!#e luck to start the year. I don't think we're better than 4th in the division tho. 

4-5 is pretty much where everyone had us "on paper" to start the season, in this division (THN, Hockey Guy, SN, TSN etc), and that's after our run, with some disclaimers we could go anywhere from 3-6 because it's such a tight one.   CAL is for sure the most underachieving team, 1-2 for them.     Wonder where we get put next year in our own division and with regular schedules....3-4 is my guess, even with how things went this year. 

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

Okay, let's do it an easier way.

 

Currently the Canucks are 24th in points%.

 

Make a list out of the 23 teams ahead of us that you can legitimately say with a straight face that we're definitely better than?

 

You know, if everything was equal and the world wasn't out to get the Vancouver Canucks...

Can say we are better then ANA, SJ, LA and ARI with a straight face, can't you?   Which was the point.   MIN too.    I'd be seriously concerned if we didn't make the playoffs next year in a regular schedule, without a very terrible run of injuries or something (like three or four core guys out all the time).    Most media types spent considerable time trying to explain the start we had, we were better then that, it was something else.  TG doesn't get a pass there, neither do the players.    Since that our play, including goaltending, was more inline with what we saw last season, much improved over previous seasons.

 

 We lost some games at the start of the turn around where we were the better team, we won some games later when we weren't because of Demko.   We aren't the only team that relies on good goaltending, doesn't make us a "bad team", but until we don't need that i can't see us contending.    Fortunately the cap has room for more improvements later, and the core has players not in their primes yet which should also help.   Reasons for optimism. 

 

It is what it is.   

Edited April 6, 2021 by IBatch

[Hogs & Podz]

Very bummed about our season as a whole but take solace in the play of Hogs, Demko and to a lesser degree Juolevi and Rathbone.... Oh yah almost forgot the fLames suck more than us!!!

Silver Linings...

[kanucks25]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

Can say we are better then ANA, SJ, LA and ARI with a straight face, can't you?   Which was the point.   MIN too.  

So even if you're right and in a "normal year" we're better than those 5 teams, that still puts us at just 19th in the league.

 

So?

[PhillipBlunt]

On 3/27/2021 at 9:09 PM, Squamfan said:

there was no communication with him until Calgary made the offer. It pretty insulting that u only contact your UFA when other team made offers to them

Do you have any proof? Anecdotal "evidence" doesn't count.

[higgyfan]

Losing Toffoli (and his wonderful contract) was a blow for the team.  We could have solidified the top6 with Toffoli and Hogslander added.

 

Marks/Tanev or Demko/Schmidt?  Wouldn't have made any difference to the points or position.  At this point, who cares?  I'm more concerned for team Covid and seeing that our guys get their full health back soon.

 

Going forward, I believe this is a better team with Demko and Schmidt.  Still need a top 6 (can't depend on Podz making that jump as a rookie), a top notch 3C and some retooling for D and bottom 6.  This doesn't have to happen right away. Next season maybe pick up the #C and then the following year start to retool.  By then, Loui, Rousell, Beagle and Holby contracts with be done; that's 16.3m!

 

If the Nucks get a top 5 draft this year, they might pick up a player that can join the team in a year or 2.  Another core player!!!~!

 

Future is really looking good for this team. 

[Squamfan]

46 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Do you have any proof? Anecdotal "evidence" doesn't count.

media, 

[PhillipBlunt]

8 minutes ago, Squamfan said:

media, 

[c00kies]

Toffoli was the only big hit, and I hope we don't sign Pearson to a contract close to that (i'm hoping for 2 year 3M, which is still not worth it compared to what Tofu brings).

[PuckYa]

Walking from Markstrom 6x6 was a gain. Thank you Demko.
Walking from Tanev & picking up Schmidt & Hamonic is a gain. 

 

Walking from Toffoli (Madden & 2nd) & re-signing Virtanen was a big loss. 

 

Now we need another Toffoli (& what does that cost us?) & we can't even give away Virtanen and his $3.5 mill anchor contract next year who could easily be placed with $1 mill or less players. (Vessey, Boyd, Leivo, Macewan, etc.)

 

[RU SERIOUS]

36 minutes ago, CoolCanucklehead said:

Walking from Markstrom 6x6 was a gain. Thank you Demko.
Walking from Tanev & picking up Schmidt & Hamonic is a gain. 

 

Walking from Toffoli (Madden & 2nd) & re-signing Virtanen was a big loss. 

 

Now we need another Toffoli (& what does that cost us?) & we can't even give away Virtanen and his $3.5 mill anchor contract next year who could easily be placed with $1 mill or less players. (Vessey, Boyd, Leivo, Macewan, etc.)

 

Well said !  JB really missed the train with Toffoli then signing Lazy Jake as a backstop.   That is one miss that hurts!   I only hope he doesn't go on a Loui Eriksson Physco/panic signing spree again and sign any of the expiring deadwood/contracts.  The only exception might be Edler on a Yr to Yr cheaper contract (only).    No one else.  Plus get rid of Lazy Jake once and for all!

[dpn1]

I think not signing those players was the best thing for the team.  It is forcing other leaders to emerge among our younger players. 

[higgyfan]

6 hours ago, CoolCanucklehead said:

Walking from Markstrom 6x6 was a gain. Thank you Demko.
Walking from Tanev & picking up Schmidt & Hamonic is a gain. 

Absolutely!  In retrospect it was a huge move for JB + the team's future.

 

6 hours ago, CoolCanucklehead said:

Walking from Toffoli (Madden & 2nd) & re-signing Virtanen was a big loss. 

I liked it at the time, but just getting 17 games out of him sucks.  In retrospect, it was a bad trade; but we won't until Madden/35th overall pick turn out in a few years. 

 

6 hours ago, CoolCanucklehead said:

Now we need another Toffoli (& what does that cost us?) & we can't even give away Virtanen and his $3.5 mill anchor contract next year who could easily be placed with $1 mill or less players. (Vessey, Boyd, Leivo, Macewan, etc.)

 

There are several (a lot, actually) older vets that are still playing well and will take a cheap contract with little term.  I would prefer the team not sign anyone long term, as I think we have a prospect (or even a top 5 draft pick) that could fill the role in a couple of years.

 

At least there is only one season left of the players that should be moving along.

[IBatch]

On 4/6/2021 at 1:50 PM, kanucks25 said:

So even if you're right and in a "normal year" we're better than those 5 teams, that still puts us at just 19th in the league.

 

So?

Don't be daft.   If in a normal year we are better then five teams (LA, SJ, ARI, ANA and MIN), where would that put us in that division?    Saying that we are exactly where we deserve to be in the rankings this year, because we are just plain bad...well i guess that's your thing isn't it?    

[smithers joe]

i hope during this covid break, JB can get petey and huggy signed. then he'll know what else he can afford.

apparently, beagle's injury will keep him side lined this season and probably part of next season too.