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what did we gain by not re-signing any of Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli?

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grouse747
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Uggh I’m sick of these “what if” and “coulda, woulda, shoulda” questions. Marky is gone because Demko has emerged as a younger starter at a lower cost. We signed Holtby as an expensive backup plan that also provides a goalie for the expansion draft issue until DiPietro is ready to fill the role cheaply. Tanev was hurt EVERY year. Yes he is a warrior and is missed but it didn’t help Calgary much to pick him up. Toffoli clearly looks bad now, but as long as we have our crystal balls out how good is he going to be in a couple more years when we have cap and are ready to truly compete. Jake looked better at the time. I still expect him to break out, but not likely in a Canucks sweater. The fallout from that will be huge!  “Should have kept him! Fire JB!”  We gained experience as a club, picked up Schmidt and Holtby, gave Hogs a real shot (the real winner here imho) and didn’t sign regrettable long term deals for aging vets. I wish Toffoli had an Orca on his jersey right now too, but we don’t always get everything the way we want. Rant over, but I wish these threads could be put together in a new “whining about things we can’t control” section. Here is to the future, hoping the cap savings from Beagle, Virtanen and (fingers crossed) team friendly signings from Petey and Hughes can get us a solid defensive RHD and a third line center. Throw in Pods and we look pretty good. We are well positioned for expansion (again) and Little Things is almost done. The future is bright, stop staring in the rear view mirror friends. 

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The best way to atone for being unable to re-sign Toffoli would be to invest that 4.x million as effectively as possible. Off the top of my head, 3C would be a great place to put that $$$ if it's the right player/deal.

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On 3/27/2021 at 6:03 PM, Squamfan said:

Benning never even talked to Tanev which pissed him off, he only tried to call him when he found out he was signing in Calgary

Disrespect or things in disarray?
 

^This & those botched Covid testing- protocols that sent a Covid-infected teammate out to practice along with his teammates, & getting test results saying he was ‘positive’ - assuming it was false but no panic until AFTER, he leaves the ice! That was clear evidence of going through the farcical motions, yet what a colossal & very costly blunder by this team’s managers that was.  
 

More than decent communication  skills are required for anyone to be a  General Manager or President in the NHL. Jimbo has now demonstrated a pattern of becoming slow to inform, communicate or act decisively at key times in his tenure as the Canucks GM. Maybe he’s shied away from pressers & making bold proclamations since the Loui Ericksson contract/ fiasco, etc. Where evidence of his loyalties  (Jake Virtanen, also) are in direct conflict to what his loyalties ‘should’ be to others, like the owners, the majority of his players, this market place, the fans & our city.
 

And - I know JBs job is a juggling act, just hoping for more proficiency at it. He can’t disregard all of the necessary bridge work required to move relationships along into the future.   
 

Whatever is muddling the efficiency in his job performances of late & maybe it is something as simple as burn-out or executive job fatigue, - has put him in a dimmer light compared to the maneouverings of other GMs.
 

This organization needs a keenly sharp mind at the helm, that of someone who will communicate, coordinate & yes, even shmooze more effectively with people & their agents, again. That responsibility seems or at least appears to be ‘back-burner’ stuff to Benning - meanwhile dinner isn’t ready & the kitchen’s on fire!  
 

 

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18 minutes ago, viking mama said:

Disrespect or things in disarray?
 

^This & those botched Covid testing- protocols that sent a Covid-infected teammate out to practice along with his teammates, & getting test results saying he was ‘positive’ - assuming it was false but no panic until AFTER, he leaves the ice! That was clear evidence of going through the farcical motions, yet what a colossal & very costly blunder by this team’s managers that was.  
 

More than decent communication  skills are required for anyone to be a  General Manager or President in the NHL. Jimbo has now demonstrated a pattern of becoming slow to inform, communicate or act decisively at key times in his tenure as the Canucks GM. Maybe he’s shied away from making bolder moves & announcements, since the Loui Ericksson contracts & subsequent fiascos, because his loyalties to some (Jake Virtanen) are in direct conflict to what his loyalties ‘should’ be to others…like the owners, the majority of his players, this market place, the fans & our city.
 

Whatever is muddling his thinking or job performances of late & maybe it is something as simple as burn-out or executive job fatigue, - has put him in a dimmer light compared to the maneouverings of other GMs.
 

This organization needs a very sharp mind at the helm, who will communicate, coordinate & yes, even shmooze effectively with more people & their agents, again. That  responsibility seems or appears to be ‘back-burner’ stuff to Benning - meanwhile dinner isn’t ready & the kitchen’s on fire!  
 

 

Put whichever negativity Koolaid you’re drinking down, whether it’s Thomas Drance or former Team 1040 (RIP).  
 

We did not want to sign Tanev and Marky at the numbers that they got.  

On 6/11/2021 at 12:07 PM, Amebushi said:

Uggh I’m sick of these “what if” and “coulda, woulda, shoulda” questions. Marky is gone because Demko has emerged as a younger starter at a lower cost. We signed Holtby as an expensive backup plan that also provides a goalie for the expansion draft issue until DiPietro is ready to fill the role cheaply. Tanev was hurt EVERY year. Yes he is a warrior and is missed but it didn’t help Calgary much to pick him up. Toffoli clearly looks bad now, but as long as we have our crystal balls out how good is he going to be in a couple more years when we have cap and are ready to truly compete. Jake looked better at the time. I still expect him to break out, but not likely in a Canucks sweater. The fallout from that will be huge!  “Should have kept him! Fire JB!”  We gained experience as a club, picked up Schmidt and Holtby, gave Hogs a real shot (the real winner here imho) and didn’t sign regrettable long term deals for aging vets. I wish Toffoli had an Orca on his jersey right now too, but we don’t always get everything the way we want. Rant over, but I wish these threads could be put together in a new “whining about things we can’t control” section. Here is to the future, hoping the cap savings from Beagle, Virtanen and (fingers crossed) team friendly signings from Petey and Hughes can get us a solid defensive RHD and a third line center. Throw in Pods and we look pretty good. We are well positioned for expansion (again) and Little Things is almost done. The future is bright, stop staring in the rear view mirror friends. 


This is really the perfect explanation. Nothing more nothing less to be said.  
 

We are way ahead of schedule when it comes to our signings and taking care of business this year. Onwards and upwards! 

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On 6/18/2021 at 1:13 PM, VancouverHabitant said:

Put whichever negativity Koolaid you’re drinking down, whether it’s Thomas Drance or former Team 1040 (RIP).  
 

We did not want to sign Tanev and Marky at the numbers that they got.  


This is really the perfect explanation. Nothing more nothing less to be said.  
 

We are way ahead of schedule when it comes to our signings and taking care of business this year. Onwards and upwards! 

Not complaining here about  Benning not signing Marky, Tanev or Tofolli, here.

 

I’m simply pointing out the reported “‘miscommunications” as a trend that can harm relationship-building & the professional reputation of the organization or the persons running it. And - how does this effect the team’s ability to acquire or retain assets in the future?  
 

Benning needs to treat his players with enough respect, that they will endorse this organization & their treatment of them. When our own players report on how they have been left dangling in contract negotiations, or covid-response, and other such things, it says that Benning doesn’t care enough about them or their families’ security & happiness.
 

It’s a business, sure! But the ‘best’ businesses build lasting relationships, before, during & after any term of employment has begun or ceased.
 

The best recruitment tool is your reputation & how well your current & former employees can speak and/or testify of you. We were ignored, we were left uniformed or simply forgotten, are not statements that would sit well with me or others.

 

Benning needs some help - or replacing in the near future. He seems over-extended. Clearly, he has divided interests which are at times a detriment to him and the interests of his team.
 

If you consistantly lose the glue  uniting your team, by letting your top ‘leadership’ assets depart without compensation or even speaking with them, a team falls apart. Others can then see, that you are not building something that lasts or sticks together. Stecher & Boeser were glued. Free agents aren’t always so mercenary. Many look for places to work, where there is already that connection, a good fit, where they feel wanted & can stick. Players need to feel those things - as well as fill their roles. When the fit is a tight one - other things are now greater than assessments put upon paper. 
 

Benning blew things up. The rebuild slowed. He hangs onto misfits. Pride - is not wanting to admit to one’s mistakes. He risks draining the team of the glue that creates an instinctual synergy that so many successful championship teams forge together, over time.
 

It’s about spotting, over-seeing & developing quality character & skill-sets, ‘cemented’ to a team via strong relationships. That’s the real genius in successful scouting & team management.


Make it so! 
 

 

 

 

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On 6/11/2021 at 8:01 AM, MattJVD said:

Virtanen was coming off a 18 goal, 36 point season, is younger, and is faster than Toffoli. In hindsight, yeah it would have been better to move Jake and keep Toffoli, but it's dangerous to pass on the young guy who has improved every single year for a 29 year old. Toffoli is older now than Sutter was when we re-signed him.

^Character, maturity & a proven pedigree in play-off situations matters far more than most here think. 
 

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I wonder if we had traded away JV, & then his scandal broke, would some have accused JB of preemptively passing off tainted goods?

The media has p*ssed on our brand so often, nothing would surprise now.

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1 hour ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

I wonder if we had traded away JV, & then his scandal broke, would some have accused JB of preemptively passing off tainted goods?

The media has p*ssed on our brand so often, nothing would surprise now.

The better question would be who cares if they did? 

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4 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Put whichever negativity Koolaid you’re drinking down, whether it’s Thomas Drance or former Team 1040 (RIP).  
 

We did not want to sign Tanev and Marky at the numbers that they got.  


This is really the perfect explanation. Nothing more nothing less to be said.  
 

We are way ahead of schedule when it comes to our signings and taking care of business this year. Onwards and upwards! 

The thing is, without even talking to Tanev or Toffoli, as they both stated, no one can assume it would have taken what they got offered elsewhere to keep them. Both wanted to stay and given the covid thing, who knows if they would have taken less term and/or dollars if offered before they got competing offers?

 

Losing them to better offers is not an issue to me. Losing them without even seeing what it might take to keep them is just negligence and a huge unforced error.

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19 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The thing is, without even talking to Tanev or Toffoli, as they both stated, no one can assume it would have taken what they got offered elsewhere to keep them. Both wanted to stay and given the covid thing, who knows if they would have taken less term and/or dollars if offered before they got competing offers?

 

Losing them to better offers is not an issue to me. Losing them without even seeing what it might take to keep them is just negligence and a huge unforced error.

What’s the point in talking to players that you aren’t planning on moving forward with?  To be perfectly clear I’m talking about Marky and Tanev, not Toffoli (I think we can agree there was a blunder there. Both players deserve the contracts they have, but wouldn’t fit into our cap situation or long term plans. This team clearly is being set up to succeed in the ‘22-‘23 season forward.
 

Demko is our goalie. How do you propose you start negotiations with Markstrom...”we plan on giving the net to Demko and exposing you (a very good goalie) in expansion where you will likely be picked and have to move with no say, please accept this lowball offer and our sincere thanks”. There was no fit for him here. 
 

Tanev is aging, and injured every year. We all love what he brings and it showed all year with Hughes just how much that is. I don’t often make predictions with a follow through, but call me out after the ‘22-‘23 season is over and tell me if you still want his contract on the books.
 

These two guys are warriors that deserve to be paid but don’t fit into the long term agenda for the Canucks. We already know what bad contracts for aging vets look like. Until they are properly replaced (Holtby will be gone either way and I know we need a big upgrade on D still) we won’t know if these moves were correct but I don’t think either one helps anything other than making our draft picks worse this year. 

 

People here are always unhappy with every move or non move that the team makes. How do we improve from our very mediocre setup if we keep signing every older version we have?  I do wish that Jim would start finding ways to trade some of them for assets before they walk but am glad that we don’t have these two part it contracts on our books right now and at the same time happy that two good guys are getting paid well for what they do. 

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On 3/27/2021 at 7:20 PM, kanucks25 said:

Is this true?

 

Just an absolute joke if that's actually how it went down.

I believe what the true deal was is that Benning had cap issues and couldn't maneuver in time before other teams stepped in. The whole "we ran out of time" I believe to be true, but by Benning's own doing.

 

Not re-signijg Marky and Tanev I understood. The former wasn't needed if we trusted in Demko and the latter wanted term and had historical injury issues. I do maintain that Toffoli was mishandled. Lucky for us, Hogs is going to be a gem. But still, if we were able to have him and Podz on our 3rd line and add a decent center, we would be going into next season with a dangerous and relentless 3rd line.

 

As for our needs, the most glaring absence is a true #1 shutdown guy to play with Hughes. Can we afford to get him, or even afford to pay him?

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On 3/29/2021 at 2:00 PM, wallstreetamigo said:

I dont blame him for wanting to sign a veteran goalie. Why did he need to sign a 2nd starting goalie though? Wasted cap imo. He could have signed a 1 to 1.5 mil veteran backup (or claimed one off waivers/traded for one for next to nothing) and kept Toffoli.

 

The problem I have is that goaltending was prioritized in free agency when it literally has not been a problem since the Luongo days. Secondary and at times even primary scoring has certainly been and defensive play under Green has been borderline brutal. I guess no wonder we need to stockpile starting goalies, they need to steal every 2nd win we get because the team defense is brutal. Of course the only thing Holtby has stolen us is cap space for Toffoli lol.

Don't blame JB one bit for safegaurding our goalies.  It's only two years.    Demko wasn't that good in the regular season at all compared to number one goalies.   Bubble Demko was awesome. Three games...i remember Boucher stringing 5 SO's in a row but then fading, and not too long ago a no name goalie came in and won his first 23 games in a row in OTT (do you remember his name?).   It's a fickle position.   Murray.  Binnington.   Demko even now is far from a proven commodity.   Look at that guy in Dallas last playoffs.   Was it a mistake?  Yes.   But a good one.   The alternative would be a lot worse for us.   And thank god he took the risks and didn't go with Markstrom. 

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Don't blame JB one bit for safegaurding our goalies.  It's only two years.    Demko wasn't that good in the regular season at all compared to number one goalies.   Bubble Demko was awesome. Three games...i remember Boucher stringing 5 SO's in a row but then fading, and not too long ago a no name goalie came in and won his first 23 games in a row in OTT (do you remember his name?).   It's a fickle position.   Murray.  Binnington.   Demko even now is far from a proven commodity.   Look at that guy in Dallas last playoffs.   Was it a mistake?  Yes.   But a good one.   The alternative would be a lot worse for us.   And thank god he took the risks and didn't go with Markstrom. 

You do realize that Holtby himself was regressing pretty badly when signed, right?

 

Demko could have flamed out for sure. But looking at it now what was the risk that it would have made our season that much worse if he had some growing pains? The team was pretty bad anyway. A rebuilding team that is letting their starting goalie walk away as a UFA should not then go out and try to sign another starting goalie. Just let the young guy see what he can do and then make adjustments if necessary. Goalies are some of the cheapest players to acquire.

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On 6/18/2021 at 3:03 PM, viking mama said:

^Character, maturity & a proven pedigree in play-off situations matters far more than most here think. 
 

Willie Desjardins:  As head coach:  Calder Cup & Memorial Cup victories

Travis Green:  As head coach:  I participated.:P

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23 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

You do realize that Holtby himself was regressing pretty badly when signed, right?

 

Demko could have flamed out for sure. But looking at it now what was the risk that it would have made our season that much worse if he had some growing pains? The team was pretty bad anyway. A rebuilding team that is letting their starting goalie walk away as a UFA should not then go out and try to sign another starting goalie. Just let the young guy see what he can do and then make adjustments if necessary. Goalies are some of the cheapest players to acquire.

Yes i know all of this.   But going into last season without a 1b available,  would have been bad.   And yes i know it didn't work out well, aside from the couple of games Holtby stood on his head after covid.    It is what it is. 

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4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes i know all of this.   But going into last season without a 1b available,  would have been bad.   And yes i know it didn't work out well, aside from the couple of games Holtby stood on his head after covid.    It is what it is. 

A veteran backup for half or less of the cap hit would have been adequate though. Every year several adequate goalies are available for cheap. Its over-insuring against a minimal to moderate at best risk.

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