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what did we gain by not re-signing any of Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli?

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2 hours ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

I don't look at the loss of Madden and a 2nd.  I look at the loss of a proven player who was a good fit that the Canucks let go for nothing.

Yep it's more about management squandering an opportunity more than anything. As I said before there's something wrong if an organization can't afford 4.25 million for Toffoli but can pay Roussel and Beagle for 3 million each 

Edited by iinatcc
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2 hours ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

That's fair.....and I used the word "likely" because there's no certainty either way and a "top 6 player" is a bit subjective based on what team you're considering.  What I'm really referring to is a solid top 6 player on most teams as opposed to a non-playoff level such as the Canucks this season.  I do think he's likely to be 2-3 years away from being a solid top 6 player as he gets up to speed with the NHL (2 years isn't long!).  Hoglander really impressed me but the last decade has skewed our interpretation of the caliber of play you should have from the four different lines. 

Yeah 2 years seems realistic. If he's does make it as a top 6 player that would be great but there's a good chance he's going to be a 3rd line player in his rookie year. 

 

His KHL numbers aren't exactly impressive so he might start out as more of an energy guy until he figures out his offensive side (if he does have one)

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4 hours ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

I don't look at the loss of Madden and a 2nd.  I look at the loss of a proven player who was a good fit that the Canucks let go for nothing.

I'm even more pessimistic, I see we gave up a good player AND gave up something great....but realistically, probably not so great. 

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The only thing that the Canucks truly gained from losing those three specific players is a top 10 overall pick.  Losing Tanev, to me on the backend is a severe downgrade.  I like Schmidt as a player, and some defensemen have come in and had a tough first year and then turn it around.  The Holtby signing was a gamble that I didn't think was going to work and hasn't.  It's easy to see that Demko is the starter long term here.  Injuries, and the COVID shut down of the team, surely didn't help. 

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On 6/22/2021 at 8:29 PM, iinatcc said:

Yep it's more about management squandering an opportunity more than anything. As I said before there's something wrong if an organization can't afford 4.25 million for Toffoli but can pay Roussel and Beagle for 3 million each 

When was Roussel and Beagle signed?

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5 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

When was Roussel and Beagle signed?

During the time most people said signing these two players for that term and price was not a good idea because of the team's future cap implications (which the ended up being the case) and also the time when Washington replaced Beagle with a player 4th line getting league minimum that has had more points and + player since then. 

 

In the end I think when and where something happened is irrelevant. A GM's portfolio or overall performance is going to be determined by the totality of what he did.

 

So history isn't going to say he overpaid for Beagle and Roussel before covid, but had to pass on Toffoli because of Covid (or even the Luongo recapture). it's simple going to be someone who overpaid for bottom 6 players but passed on top 6 scoring wingers at a good deal. There's no such thing as context when evaluating it's the overall results and, to be honest, it hasn't been looking that good

 

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/nhl-gms-who-last-7-years-are-typically-a-lot-more-successful-than-jim-benning-3897497

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20 hours ago, TheCerebral1 said:

The only thing that the Canucks truly gained from losing those three specific players is a top 10 overall pick.  Losing Tanev, to me on the backend is a severe downgrade.  I like Schmidt as a player, and some defensemen have come in and had a tough first year and then turn it around.  The Holtby signing was a gamble that I didn't think was going to work and hasn't.  It's easy to see that Demko is the starter long term here.  Injuries, and the COVID shut down of the team, surely didn't help. 

Hindsight is like a crystal ball that tells the future

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3 hours ago, iinatcc said:

During the time most people said signing these two players for that term and price was not a good idea because of the team's future cap implications (which the ended up being the case) and also the time when Washington replaced Beagle with a player 4th line getting league minimum that has had more points and + player since then. 

 

In the end I think when and where something happened is irrelevant. A GM's portfolio or overall performance is going to be determined by the totality of what he did.

 

So history isn't going to say he overpaid for Beagle and Roussel before covid, but had to pass on Toffoli because of Covid (or even the Luongo recapture). it's simple going to be someone who overpaid for bottom 6 players but passed on top 6 scoring wingers at a good deal. There's no such thing as context when evaluating it's the overall results and, to be honest, it hasn't been looking that good

 

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/nhl-gms-who-last-7-years-are-typically-a-lot-more-successful-than-jim-benning-3897497

Nobody was complaining when we were in the bubble and our team was aces in the dot were they. 

 

Hogs and Podz  vs TT hmm.   Yes it sucked/sucks we didn't have cap to sign TT,  but it wasn't a priority with cap needed for QHs and EP this off season.   Can't see why some don't just let this go.   Didn't have to trade for him in the first place with hindsight, wish we didn't because man it's like Sundin all over again with some "his highness".    At least we get to watch the Habs maybe win a cup.   We weren't going to with him, would have lost something else to sign him important, and put our cap into a worse spot then it is this off season.  

 

JB deserves ever bit of criticism for bunging up the cap, but did the right things last off season letting these guys walk, committing the cap space to Demko, and EP and QHs.   One year off on contracts is forgivable, usually it takes longer for guys to spread their wings - go see how Kakko and Laffreniiere are doing.   Hogs managed more lol. 

Edited by IBatch
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23 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Nobody was complaining when we were in the bubble and our team was aces in the dot were they. 

Of course not but this was just one season. What do people remember more about Peter Chiarelli's stint as the Oilers GM ? The GM that took the Oilers to a good playoff run that one season or one who squandered all the Oilers' assets? 

 

Years of some bad seasons and, once again, being a lottery team again the next isn't going to go away with just one playoff run. 

  

23 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Hogs and Podz  vs TT hmm. 

Or all three? Word is that Canucks need another winger even if Hoglander and Podkolzin (who probably is still a year or two away from being a permanent Top 6, should he pan out) pan out. This is the reason why there are talks of Benning trading the 9th for a Winger like Reinhart, something that maybe wouldn't be a necessary conversation if Toffoli was still part of the team.

 

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6 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

Of course not but this was just one season. What do people remember more about Peter Chiarelli's stint as the Oilers GM ? The GM that took the Oilers to a good playoff run that one season or one who squandered all the Oilers' assets? 

 

Years of some bad seasons and, once again, being a lottery team again the next isn't going to go away with just one playoff run. 

  

Or all three? Word is that Canucks need another winger even if Hoglander and Podkolzin (who probably is still a year or two away from being a permanent Top 6, should he pan out) pan out. This is the reason why there are talks of Benning trading the 9th for a Winger like Reinhart, something that maybe wouldn't be a necessary conversation if Toffoli was still part of the team.

 

Reinhardt is also a C.   Don't get why your talking about Chia.   All three for sure if we had the cap space.  We didn't.  We'd of had to trade Sutter a year early and one of Hogs, or Podz and or a pick to make that work.   IF TT was a LW it would have made a lot more sense.   We are loaded on the right side even without JV.      Hogs will likely move to the L side as he can play both ones.   Signing Reinhardt has more to do about C depth and creating three scoring lines then adding another winger.   In that case, we could use either him or Miller as the 3C

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33 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Reinhardt is also a C.   Don't get why your talking about Chia.   All three for sure if we had the cap space.  We didn't. 

Reinhart from why I gathered is a C that can play (and has played) on the wing, one of the folks in sportsnet said if Benning does pursuit Reinhart it will be basically management trying to fix their mistake in letting Toffoli walk. Of course there is no actual evidence to suggest that Benning is actually trying to pursuit Reinhart, so it's all hypothetical. That said the belief is that if Benning does want to get aggressive he's going to need to give up some assets to get a scoring winger the team needs.

 

As for Chiarelli, point is people are going to remember your stint as a GM for a specific team overall success of the franchise. So one season, like the Canucks' run during the bubble, isn't enough of a good will to change people's minds about Benning's tenure with the Canucks.

 

As for the cap space. Yes Canucks' didn't it was all because of poor decision making overpaying for bottom players. A franchise or management with a good "capologist" (like Lawrence Gillman someone who Benning didn't replace) could have identified that. And now it's come back to haunt the team.

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13 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

Reinhart from why I gathered is a C that can play (and has played) on the wing, one of the folks in sportsnet said if Benning does pursuit Reinhart it will be basically management trying to fix their mistake in letting Toffoli walk. Of course there is no actual evidence to suggest that Benning is actually trying to pursuit Reinhart, so it's all hypothetical. That said the belief is that if Benning does want to get aggressive he's going to need to give up some assets to get a scoring winger the team needs.

 

As for Chiarelli, point is people are going to remember your stint as a GM for a specific team overall success of the franchise. So one season, like the Canucks' run during the bubble, isn't enough of a good will to change people's minds about Benning's tenure with the Canucks.

 

As for the cap space. Yes Canucks' didn't it was all because of poor decision making overpaying for bottom players. A franchise or management with a good "capologist" (like Lawrence Gillman someone who Benning didn't replace) could have identified that. And now it's come back to haunt the team.

Podkolzin is coming into the lineup.  No need for a Rhino, when we are getting a LION!!!  :towel:

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1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Podkolzin is coming into the lineup.  No need for a Rhino, when we are getting a LION!!!  :towel:

why not both? ::D

 

Podz is going to do the dirty work for guys like SR, I think he's going to be a puck retrieval / possession beast for us. Sure he's not a tiny perimeter water bug but you can't have everything. 

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1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

why not both? ::D

 

Podz is going to do the dirty work for guys like SR, I think he's going to be a puck retrieval / possession beast for us. Sure he's not a tiny perimeter water bug but you can't have everything. 

How about 9OA + 40 OA for a Rhino and a Risto?  

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4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

How about 9OA + 40 OA for a Rhino and a Risto?  

man, thats a hard one. You'd need to have a sign and trade in place for Sammy for sure, hopefully at an AAV 5.75-6 in that range. 

 

I'm not a big fan of Risto, but maybe his defensive suckage has to do with the tire fire that is Buffalo. I also worry about his next deal, its going to have to be a pay cut and maybe he won't be too happy about that. 

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Just now, Jimmy McGill said:

man, thats a hard one. You'd need to have a sign and trade in place for Sammy for sure, hopefully at an AAV 5.75-6 in that range. 

 

I'm not a big fan of Risto, but maybe his defensive suckage has to do with the tire fire that is Buffalo. I also worry about his next deal, its going to have to be a pay cut and maybe he won't be too happy about that. 

All valid concerns.  Personally, I’d rather get Risto than Rhino.  Risto is a big, mean, and skilled D man.  Is 9OA too much for getting him?  

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3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

All valid concerns.  Personally, I’d rather get Risto than Rhino.  Risto is a big, mean, and skilled D man.  Is 9OA too much for getting him?  

how would we be able to afford him? is he another myers? i'ld rather find a younger, less expensive option.

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1 minute ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

Seems a bit high yes but not many good RHD out there imo

Could Risto be a bigger, more skilled, meaner, and younger Tanev replacement?  Maybe not signing the three guys in this thread title allows Benning to get a guy like Risto?  

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