Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

what did we gain by not re-signing any of Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli?

Rate this topic


grouse747
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, smithers joe said:

how would we be able to afford him? is he another myers? i'ld rather find a younger, less expensive option.

A younger version of Tanev?  Maybe 24 or less?  Not signing Marky, Tofu, and Tanev did free up cap space this summer.  

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

All valid concerns.  Personally, I’d rather get Risto than Rhino.  Risto is a big, mean, and skilled D man.  Is 9OA too much for getting him?  

yeah I'd be pissed at giving the 9th for Risto. Unless it came with a really good AAV extension under 5, then I could maybe deal with it. I think we could get him for our 2nd and Lockwood. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Could Risto be a bigger, more skilled, meaner, and younger Tanev replacement?  Maybe not signing the three guys in this thread title allows Benning to get a guy like Risto?  

Could he be, maybe. Hes 26 and hasnt really showed the ability to do it yet so id pass. 9OA has to be able to fetch a RHD thats 24 yrs old or less imo but would be okay with a 25 yr old top 6 forward with it.

  • Sedinery 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

Okay so the answer to my question was 2018-19 same with Pearson, we was acquired in 2018-19.

My next question is, when did the Sedins retire and when did the rebuild begin?

Answer: 2017-18

 

These signings/acquisitions were in the first off season after the Sedins retired.

 

When Benning signed these overpaid UFAs it was at the crack of dawn in the rebuild. Who cares??? Its a rebuild, we arent winning a cup in the first couple years of a rebuild. By the time we are ready to win, those contracts are coming to an end or have already ended. Its not a handicap having them on the roster and tying up cap space during the early years. Its about leadership, providing stability in the roster to mitigate the losses, that are inevitable in a rebuild.

The 20/20, hindsight is that the contracts suck because guys like Petey and Hughes made INSTANT impact, something no one was expecting or could foresee. So now we look at that cap space as wasted space, because we managed to steer the ship ‘round quickly. 
 

We acquired Toffoli at last seasons TDL prior to COVIDs global domination and the effect it would have on the cap and keeping it flat. Pearson was still under contract, Toffoli wasnt. IF the cap increased, Toffoli would be re-signed. Pearson would have likely been extended too.

We also had to re-up Demko, still have Petey and Hughes, Boeser the following year. Toffoli is the last on the priority list. Get the core locked up at the same time for 4 years minimum and then start finding your “Toffoli”
Theres a lot of blame on a guy who made moves who cant see the future. Petey, Hughes, Demko, Hoglander all making an impact from the day they arrived. Now its biting him in the ass because we are now getting ready to start winning. Benning has gone through 3 transitional phases with the Canucks. 

 

The first was trying to slap a team together for

the Sedins to win a cup. He did well in his first season, took us from 25th to 8th in the league. Until they retired the goal was playoffs and a cup for the 2 greatest players in Canucks franchise. I think out of respect and ownerships hope and optimism of playoffs, so long as the Sedins were playing, they would not put them through the pains of a full on rebuild to end their careers.

 

The second phase was the rebuild phase.

We had limited youth to insert into the lineup from previous managments drafting inability. No prospects in the pipes and the aged out core of Burke and Nonis’ drafting. Benning had to draft and develop, which is where the overpaid UFAs came into play. Our prospects can develop overseas, in the minors or in sheltered roles in the NHL. 
 

The third phase was the instant impact of Bennings drafting. By the second full year without the Sedins, we made the playoffs, not just made the playoffs, but we EARNED a playoff spot by winning the play-in round. We went deep too. We just weren’t deep enough to go all the way. As nice as Toffoli was for us, he also didnt play all that much, he broke his foot and came back part way through the playoffs. He looked slow and we were no match for VGK. Benning did what all GMs should and will do, which is make moves at the TDL to improve the team to see if those moves are enough to win a cup. We came up 2 rounds short, the flat cap, Hughes and Petey need new deals, Pearson was under contract and a little younger, Toffoli was letgo/quick to sign with Montreal. I think it will be for the best for Vancouver long term to have let Toffoli go. When we are ready to win, we can take that 4.25m and put it towards a 26-29year old player at that time. So in a couple years when we are competing, we can acquire that guy and contend. By then Toffoli is 31-32 maybe even 33… he’s no longer that guy for us.

 

 

 

Benning made the playoffs in his first year.

He has made the playoffs 2 times in 7 years, 1 year we were hit with COVID unlike any other team in the league… Our ACTUAL rebuild started in 2018-19… I’d say Benning is doing a great job, considering in the first 2 years of the rebuild we made the playoffs, Won 2 rounds and took VGK to the dying minutes of a game 7, when we finally let in a goal. This year is not going on Bennings record. Next year can surely be put down on his report card, which will look great for him when you see us make the playoffs in the division we are in.

 

I would speak differently if the rebuild began in 2014-15…. But thats not the case and its only been 3 years since the Twins hung them up.

All of this is true

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/22/2021 at 8:33 PM, iinatcc said:

Yeah 2 years seems realistic. If he's does make it as a top 6 player that would be great but there's a good chance he's going to be a 3rd line player in his rookie year. 

 

His KHL numbers aren't exactly impressive so he might start out as more of an energy guy until he figures out his offensive side (if he does have one)

That's my suspicion and that's okay.  No need to pressure the lad.  I think he's just learned some English too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The simple answer to the OP question is two things:  Demko.   And cap space.   And as far as TT goes, pretty bad.   But we had/have JV, BB, Hogs and Podz who are either natural RWs or in Hogs case can play both sides. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/24/2021 at 1:19 PM, Alflives said:

A younger version of Tanev?  Maybe 24 or less?  Not signing Marky, Tofu, and Tanev did free up cap space this summer.  

Yes it did.   If JB didn't sign Holtby it would have been a home run (last off season)  it could still be if Seattle wants him which some think they do (THN).  If not it was still pretty decent overall and made a lot of sense.   Trying to time a cores ascension is a double edged sword.   If we didn't have cap issues then i'd bet the same that complain about it, instead would he complaining about not drafting anyone worthy of raise.   We are one year off.   JB for sure needs to and is owning it.   IF he re-signed those guys, even TT, i'd have probably spammed this site quite a bit over the last year that he's past his due date with us and time to move on.   

 

Im pretty stoked about our young core but get there is work yet to be done.   Also like 32 GMs realize once you make it the mettle of your team comes out.   Ours did .... it was better then i expected.    Just glad we didn't go with the same thing, toss Demko and most of what remains of our pool to retry and win with the same old thing.   Nobody is b!tching about going with Demko instead anymore.   I'm pretty sure Podz and Hogs are also going to make them forget about TT. 

Edited by IBatch
  • Vintage 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/22/2021 at 11:29 PM, iinatcc said:

Yep it's more about management squandering an opportunity more than anything. As I said before there's something wrong if an organization can't afford 4.25 million for Toffoli but can pay Roussel and Beagle for 3 million each 

Dude you need context.  When those guys were signed nobody had a clue when this team was going to be ready to start filling holes with our pool still.   Even now it's not absolutely a given that Lind or Gads are ready right?   Context matters, i for sure agree he missed the mark by one year though because he for sure did.   Just glad we have cap issues.   If we didn't man would be in a sorry state right now.  Also like every other GM, nobody predicted a pandemic.   I've seen some blame that on JB too which is actually mind blowingly ridiculous but i guess entertaining. 

 

Edit: Will say that JB better be willing to save money for later after all of this or he's got a screw loose. Just to be prepared for the unknown, even if it's 1-2 million. 

Edited by IBatch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Dude you need context.  When those guys were signed nobody had a clue when this team was going to be ready to start filling holes with our pool still.   Even now it's not absolutely a given that Lind or Gads are ready right?   Context matters, i for sure agree he missed the mark by one year though because he for sure did.   Just glad we have cap issues.   If we didn't man would be in a sorry state right now. 

I disagree on context mattering at least in the grand scheme of things. When people look at a GM's overall work with a franchise it's going to be looked at the big picture and not in specific circumstances. 

 

As I said before Mike Gillis was one win away from becoming "the greatest Canucks GM of all time" and even if things turned out the way did after 2011, it would not have affected Gillis standing if the Canucks won the cup in 2011.

 

Likewise Bergevin is either going to look like a genius or someone who overpaid to resign Price and gave up an elite defenseman for Drouin. It depends on whether the Habs on the cup or not

 

 

Edited by iinatcc
  • Thanks 1
  • Hydration 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

I disagree on context mattering at least in the grand scheme of things. When people look at a GM's overall work with a franchise it's going to be looked at the big picture and not in specific circumstances. 

 

As I said before Mike Gillis was one win away from becoming "the greatest Canucks GM of all time" and even if things turned out the way did after 2011, it would not have affected Gillis standing if the Canucks won the cup in 2011.

 

Likewise Bergevin is either going to look like a genius or someone who overpaid to resign Price and gave up an elite defenseman for Drouin. It depends on whether the Habs on the cup or not

 

 

Won't disagree about that.  But consider this for a moment.  Sakic was getting all sorts of flak when he took over COL.  And how he handles Duchene waiting that long, just as Bergie has been blasted on and off his entire tenure in MTL.   With Sakic he already had a lot of the assets in place too, just had the foresight to re-set it even though fans had been waiting basically since Sakic retired and Forsberg left to be relevant again.    Now they both looks pretty darn good.   No problem with Lou winning back to backs in NY but Bergevin would have got my vote given how much he did before, during and late to give his team the tools to do something special.    Which all started with Price and Weber all those years ago.    Plus like us, he has too pay his players more then other teams just to attract them and keep them there.    Why not give JB one year to see if what happened in the bubble was a fluke or not?   MG didn't win, it was JB that paid the price for that - and personally i don't blame either.   Like to see what he can do coming from at least a somewhat position of strength, not just a bottom feeder trying to fill out a roster because we had zero drafting for - wait for it - nine years with the exception of Horvat, Coho and Hutton lol. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The simple answer to the OP question is two things:  Demko.   And cap space.   And as far as TT goes, pretty bad.   But we had/have JV, BB, Hogs and Podz who are either natural RWs or in Hogs case can play both sides. 

You do know Toffoli has played alot of left wing for the habs too, right? He has actually been even more dangerous offensively there. Could have easily moved him over to have a true top 6.

 

When Pearson is on your 1st pp unit, you know your top 6 options are limited.

 

There is literally no excusing the Toffoli blunder especially when combined with the Pearson re-sign. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Dude you need context.  When those guys were signed nobody had a clue when this team was going to be ready to start filling holes with our pool still.   Even now it's not absolutely a given that Lind or Gads are ready right?   Context matters, i for sure agree he missed the mark by one year though because he for sure did.   Just glad we have cap issues.   If we didn't man would be in a sorry state right now.  Also like every other GM, nobody predicted a pandemic.   I've seen some blame that on JB too which is actually mind blowingly ridiculous but i guess entertaining. 

 

Edit: Will say that JB better be willing to save money for later after all of this or he's got a screw loose. Just to be prepared for the unknown, even if it's 1-2 million. 

 if we're bringing context into this, all we would have got out of TT this season is him with covid. 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

An indirect benefit we got is seeing how Pettersson and Hughes perform without having additional support prior to them signing their first non-elc contract. I have no doubt that Pettersson and Hughes would have both had much bigger contracts had Tanev and Toffoli stayed. For long-term stability for the team and being able to fill it with depth, it was good to expose Hughes and Pettersson with more challenge to see what they were made of. Hughes certainly got exposed more on his defensive game. Pettersson also didn't have a stellar year but it appears Miller may be the driver on the line. Our team seemed to have missed Miller more when he was away from the team than Pettersson. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2021 at 3:37 PM, wallstreetamigo said:

You do know Toffoli has played alot of left wing for the habs too, right? He has actually been even more dangerous offensively there. Could have easily moved him over to have a true top 6.

 

When Pearson is on your 1st pp unit, you know your top 6 options are limited.

 

There is literally no excusing the Toffoli blunder especially when combined with the Pearson re-sign. 

 

 

I find it interesting that you're combining the evaluation with the Pearson signing.

 

Personally I don't see those two as related at all.  Pearson was re-signed to give Horvat some stability, and I really think he's a good fit there with him and when Petey is back healthy and Hoglander (hopefully) continuing his trajectory, and Podkolzin coming this year, I think Pearson will be a solid fit there. 

 

To me, the Tofoli miss is made worse only by JB's bet on Virtanen.  He dragged his feet on Tofoli because he was trying to deal with Jake, and that's the biggest gaff imo.  His unwillingness to walk away from Virtanen is what led to the Toffoli situation imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/27/2021 at 5:36 PM, grouse747 said:

simple question,

 

would re-resigning one of the 3 have made it very tricky to give QH and EP the long-term contracts they deserve?

 

or did we not re-sign any of them to give us some flexibility to add a few much cheaper pieces over the next couple of years?

 

I think Toffoli was the obvious one to keep......... Markstrom would have been the no-brainer without Demko here.

 

I did go back 5 or 6 pages of the forum to try to find a Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli thread to append this question.. no luck.

 

thanks in advance :) ... and it's not a rhetorical question. I actually don't know/remember the answer.... 

Imo Tanev gone was a no brainer, signing Tanev would have been a huge mistake, wrong side of 30 and often injured and not on the ice. 

 Stech? Not even close either, great kid but a middling D at best.

Markstrom? As Tanev, for a 2 year stint? Yes BUT not longer and he wanted that and it made no sense to keep him on those terms.

 TT? We probably would have kept him but with the flat cap and Podz in the mix, could go either way, but financially wise, Podz was the best option.

 One other thing a lot of people aren't paying attention to is bridge deals, media (idiots at best) are clamering about Hughes and Petey needing to be signed but forgetting bridge deals especially during post covid will be an out for a lot of teams in our position and using that tactic on JV showed Jim I'd perfectly fine with it..

 Simply this, our teams position is not near as bad as it's portrayed to be but that's clickbait for you, obviously there's so much "speculation" to play with, media eats it up and spews it out with whatever spin necessary that works and they know most people won't even question it so they have a field day, should that surprise those of us who aren't afraid to critically think for ourselves? not in the least, as stupid as it is, it's kind of funny but sometimes annoying.. 

 

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really follow all the Tanev love. He is not a star dman, he isn't even an allstar dman in any year of his career, he is a plug n play dman of average ability. I do not miss him. Markstrom leaving was not avoidable due to the covid cap situation. Toffoli i do miss and considering he is only 4.25m with three years left, I feel like he would have stayed for the same deal: 4 x 4.25: the question is, which i don't recall, could the Canucks have possibly made that deal at the time? I am not sure. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

I don't really follow all the Tanev love. He is not a star dman, he isn't even an allstar dman in any year of his career, he is a plug n play dman of average ability. I do not miss him. Markstrom leaving was not avoidable due to the covid cap situation. Toffoli i do miss and considering he is only 4.25m with three years left, I feel like he would have stayed for the same deal: 4 x 4.25: the question is, which i don't recall, could the Canucks have possibly made that deal at the time? I am not sure. 

Isn’t that what we paid for Holtby?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Isn’t that what we paid for Holtby?  

probably close to that...so back then you are saying you would have rather have had Tanev than Holtby> lol

revisionsist history aside, not many people would pick tanev over holtby at that point in time.

 

Oh wait you mean Toffoli, hehe

same answer though: prior to his stint in montreal. 

Edited by Primal Optimist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

probably close to that...so back then you are saying you would have rather have had Tanev than Holtby> lol

revisionsist history aside, not many people would pick tanev over holtby at that point in time.

 

Oh wait you mean Toffoli, hehe

same answer though: prior to his stint in montreal. 

Oh for sure Tofu over Holtby last year.  It’s the last two years of Tofu i don’t think will look good.  

The guy I wanted us to keep was Troy from Richmond.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...