[Signing] Canucks re-sign Tanner Pearson

[coryberg]

51 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

You should take alook at why Tampa needed to trade him bud. Aka they needed the cap room. Aka they cap dumped him.

 

Its a good thing I dont care what your opinion of me is or the credibility thing might hurt my feelings haha.

Tampa had a bunch of time(the deal was done at the draft) and multiple options to clear cap. Contracts that weren't as good and players that weren't as good. Benning identified Miller as a target and put in a substantial offer to pry him away. Give your head a shake.

[wallstreetamigo]

10 minutes ago, coryberg said:

Tampa had a bunch of time(the deal was done at the draft) and multiple options to clear cap. Contracts that weren't as good and players that weren't as good. Benning identified Miller as a target and put in a substantial offer to pry him away. Give your head a shake.

Not according to reporting at the time. Tampa was feeling the urgency to get cap cleared. Brisebois deserves credit for still getting what could have been a lottery pick plus a 3rd even with his back to the wall. And I think Benning deserves some credit for having the balls to go for it too. It was a risk. One of the few he has taken that worked out and I give him credit for that.

Edited April 12, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[wallstreetamigo]

15 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

Fair and reasonable post. I agree with everything you’ve said here. Many of his “supporters” aren’t wild about the extra year. The verbal guarantee (if true) is meaningless as JB likely knows who he will expose already. So it is fair to ask what area he got a discount. Very little, if any, IMO. I just don’t find anything heinous about it. I will judge this contract in conjunction with all the other moves made now and in the off-season, including decisions on coaches. 

If they have to lose Gaudette or Lind as a result of having to protect Pearson then it could be a big deal. Its also fair to ask why he couldnt have simply waited to sign this deal until after the expansion draft. Why the urgency to do it now?

 

I guess I want a GM who will take every advantage of the system within the rules. Benning constantly shoots the team in the foot though. Its unlikely Seattle was going to take Pearson as a UFA. Maybe but really if they did who cares? It would mean the Canucks can keep both Gaudette and Lind who probably could both be signed for less combined than Pearson is getting paid.

 

Its frustrating to me that the Canucks and Benning fans keep expecting young stars to sign at discounts or bridge deals while overpaying for depth guys. I worry about the message that sends.

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

It's frustrating to me that the Canucks and Benning fans keep expecting young stars to sign at discounts or bridge deals while overpaying for depth guys. I worry about the message that sends.

Message? That's literally how the system has worked for years. It's not remotely Benning-centric.

 

RFA's have less leverage and make less money than UFA's. 

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Message? That's literally how the system has worked for years. It's not remotely Benning-centric.

 

RFA's have less leverage and make less money than UFA's. 

That dynamic haschanged a lot in recent years bud. Top players are going from ELC to long term big money contracts far more frequently than they used to. And top UFA players have lots of leverage as always while lower tier players do not. Thats the way the league is trending. Tons of examples of it around the league.

 

In the covid flat cap era, players like Pearson should not have the kind of leverage Benning afforded him in that negotiation. 

[wallstreetamigo]

If Benning cant get a deal done, what happens if someone sends a crazy offer sheet to EP? Its not as unheard of as it used to be. Just ask Montreal and Carolina. Benning cant get rid of any terrible contracts so which top player gets sacrificed to be cap compliant? Hughes? Miller? Boeser? Horvat?

 

Or do they let Edler and Sutter go if that happens? They still have to be replaced though so how much cap savings will that actually give? Will Benning and Green really go with Juolevi, Rathbone, etc? Or will Benning sign another overpriced 3rd pairing D in a panic? I think history sort of tells us what is most likely.

 

Every overpriced contract Benning signs now only increases the risk of losing a big name player later.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

That dynamic haschanged a lot in recent years bud. Top players are going from ELC to long term big money contracts far more frequently than they used to. And top UFA players have lots of leverage as always while lower tier players do not. Thats the way the league is trending. Tons of examples of it around the league.

It's changed a bit, sure. Particularly at forward, (not so much at D). But RFA years are still cheaper than UFA ones. Plain and simple fact. The entire system works that way and it's really only Toronto and Arizona that have stepped way out of that framework.

 

1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

In the covid flat cap era, players like Pearson should not have the kind of leverage Benning afforded him in that negotiation. 

He paid market value. He simply didn't get a hoped for discount/deal. There was like 15 examples last page, of guys who got about the same, and quite a few who got more and closer to $3.5.

 

Continuing to repeat it doesn't make it any more true.

 

And again, I've not seen one person declaring this an 'amazing' deal. We're all just wondering why the hell you all are setting your hair on fire over it. We not defending it as 'the best deal ever!'

 

You'd probably have a better time forming an argument if your lot didn't insist on straw men of 'overpaid!' and 'replacement player!'

 

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

It's changed a bit, sure. Particularly at forward, (not so much at D). But RFA years are still cheaper than UFA ones. Plain and simple fact. The entire system works that way and it's really only Toronto and Arizona that have stepped way out of that framework.

 

He paid market value. He simply didn't get a hoped for discount/deal. There was like 15 examples last page, of guys who got about the same, and quite a few who got more and closer to $3.5.

 

Continuing to repeat it doesn't make it any more true.

 

And again, I've not seen one person declaring this an 'amazing' deal. We're all just wondering why the hell you all are setting your hair on fire over it. We not defending it as 'the best deal ever!'

 

You'd probably have a better time forming an argument if your lot didn't insist on straw men of 'overpaid!' and 'replacement player!'

 

Most of your examples were signed pre covid so they arent actually todays dollars comparable bud. I think one actually has since been bought out so not sure how thats a good look for this deal.

 

Its not the worst deal Benning has signed and I never said it was. Its the latest in a pattern of Benning giving dollars, term, AND trade protection for players who are not core players or who could be replaced cheaper. Its not one or two deals. Its more like 7 or 8.

Edited April 12, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[4petesake]

5 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

That dynamic haschanged a lot in recent years bud. Top players are going from ELC to long term big money contracts far more frequently than they used to. And top UFA players have lots of leverage as always while lower tier players do not. Thats the way the league is trending. Tons of examples of it around the league.

 

In the covid flat cap era, players like Pearson should not have the kind of leverage Benning afforded him in that negotiation. 

In his appearance on Donnie & Dhali JP Barry said that chances of long term contracts and offer sheets are extremely unlikely for the next while so expect shorter bridge deals like 3 years. If we’re lucky we can hope for 5 year deals for Petey & Hughes, (like Demko.) But you are correct in that the mid-level players will be squeezed. We’ll have to see how many of those we have next year. 
 

While I don’t want to lose Lind or Gaudette neither is the end of the world when you consider what other teams may lose.

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Most of your examples were signed pre covid so they arent actually todays dollars comparable bud. I think one actually has since been bought out so not sure how thats a good look for this deal.

 

Its not the worst deal Benning has signed and I never said it was. Its the latest in a pattern of Benning giving dollars, term, AND trade protection for players who are not core players or who could be replaced cheaper. Its not one or two deals. Its more like 7 or 8.

And most of the ones pre Covid were closer to $3.5... Some even more than that.

 

A pattern not based in reality, sure.

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, 4petesake said:

In his appearance on Donnie & Dhali JP Barry said that chances of long term contracts and offer sheets are extremely unlikely for the next while so expect shorter bridge deals like 3 years. If we’re lucky we can hope for 5 year deals for Petey & Hughes, (like Demko.) But you are correct in that the mid-level players will be squeezed. We’ll have to see how many of those we have next year. 
 

While I don’t want to lose Lind or Gaudette neither is the end of the world when you consider what other teams may lose.

It only takes one desperate GM though. And budding superstar players are pretty much the closest thing to covid flat cap proof players there are. 

 

I would not be at all surprised to see him offer sheeted. Maybe there are teams out there who are looking beyond the next few cap flat years with some upcoming cap space and want a young star. Maybe they realize that squeezing the lower tier players will long term make paying the top players more palatable overall in the grand scheme of a contending team.

 

Not a guarantee it would happen but there are still some crazy GM's out there.

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

And most of the ones pre Covid were closer to $3.5... Some even more than that.

 

A pattern not based in reality, sure.

Pre covid contracts are irrelevant. They are only brought up to justify a GM who apparently doesnt realize that the financial dynamics of marginal players has significantly shifted downward along with the flat cap reality.

 

The pattern is crystal clear bud. How much cap is in the minors, bought out, or on the taxi squad? How much is (thankfully) on ltir?

 

I cant think of a veteran ufa type player that Benning has signed that would even be claimed off of waivers at this point. 

[wallstreetamigo]

11 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

In his appearance on Donnie & Dhali JP Barry said that chances of long term contracts and offer sheets are extremely unlikely for the next while so expect shorter bridge deals like 3 years. If we’re lucky we can hope for 5 year deals for Petey & Hughes, (like Demko.) But you are correct in that the mid-level players will be squeezed. We’ll have to see how many of those we have next year. 
 

While I don’t want to lose Lind or Gaudette neither is the end of the world when you consider what other teams may lose.

Its not the end of the world if it happens. But its an unforced error by Benning that could have easily been avoided. Thats the problem. So many unforced errors on contracts like this.

 

Protecting those two might have made Seattle take Holtby as one example. So who they select will have a chain reaction for sure.

[4petesake]

5 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

It only takes one desperate GM though. And budding superstar players are pretty much the closest thing to covid flat cap proof players there are. 

 

I would not be at all surprised to see him offer sheeted. Maybe there are teams out there who are looking beyond the next few cap flat years with some upcoming cap space and want a young star. Maybe they realize that squeezing the lower tier players will long term make paying the top players more palatable overall in the grand scheme of a contending team.

 

Not a guarantee it would happen but there are still some crazy GM's out there.

It could happen so it’d be wise to have a backup plan but wasn’t the last accepted offer sheet Dustin Penner ten years ago or am I forgetting someone? I think Montreal’s offer on Aho that was matched last year was the only one when sports reporters thought there might be multiple offer sheets. 
 

Anything can happen but that’s pretty far down on my list of concerns. Even without the Pearson signing, one of Lind or Gaudette would have been unprotected. Plain and simple the entry draft is designed for Seattle to get good players. They are paying big bucks for them.

 

Also, for the record, I have no problem whatsoever with people questioning this signing or any other moves Benning makes. Even if they think he should be fired.  We’re all entitled to our opinions.My problem is the drama, the Benning boot-licker, nut-hugger, better have knee pads on, etc, etc., comments about people who have a different opinion. 

[zimmy]

45 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

That dynamic haschanged a lot in recent years bud. Top players are going from ELC to long term big money contracts far more frequently than they used to. And top UFA players have lots of leverage as always while lower tier players do not. Thats the way the league is trending. Tons of examples of it around the league.

 

In the covid flat cap era, players like Pearson should not have the kind of leverage Benning afforded him in that negotiation. 

By your own logic, UFA’s in this COVID world have similarly lost and will lose leverage moving forward . I expect Petey’s and Q’s negotiations will be marked by this reality and judging by JB’s telling observation Friday concerning cap issues, perhaps the die has already been cast and affordable bridges built.

[aGENT]

27 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Pre covid contracts are irrelevant. They are only brought up to justify a GM who apparently doesnt realize that the financial dynamics of marginal players has significantly shifted downward along with the flat cap reality.

No they are not. Contracts post Covid may be flat or even moderately decreased (like Pearson's in fact is) instead of constantly rising like before, but they're not going off a cliff. They're still recent, direct comparables. Pre Covid Pearson likely would have been looking at a slight raise, probably a tick over $4m. At the very least, high $3's.

 

And again with the straw man 'marginal player' 

 

27 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The pattern is crystal clear bud. How much cap is in the minors, bought out, or on the taxi squad? How much is (thankfully) on ltir?

We've covered this numerous times already but the vast majority are due to injury... Injuries aren't the fault of a GM or a 'pattern'.

 

27 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I cant think of a veteran ufa type player that Benning has signed that would even be claimed off of waivers at this point. 

Loads of very good veteran players have been waived and cleared this year because of a global pandemic, from numerous teams, even 'well run', contending ones. This doesn't prove anything other than this year is a gong show.

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, zimmy said:

By your own logic, UFA’s in this COVID world have similarly lost and will lose leverage moving forward . I expect Petey’s and Q’s negotiations will be marked by this reality and judging by JB’s telling observation Friday concerning cap issues, perhaps the die has already been cast and affordable bridges built.

Neither one is a 28 to 30 something mid tier UFA though. So the cost crunch on those types will have little effect on them. 

 

EP and QH may sign bridge contracts, who knows. Expecting them to sign for less than their value while overpaying guys like Pearson, Holtby, etc. just feels like a backwards approach to team building. 

 

Iirc, JB says he anticipates no cap concerns. That makes him either a liar or delusional. They most definitely have cap issues upcoming whether he sees them or not. Yes, some of his bad contracts will be coming off the books. But the question is will he replace them with other bad contracts when they do. The Pearson signing is a strong indication he will.

 

My biggest knock on Benning is he is too stubborn (and frankly arrogant) to adjust his approach even when 7 years and counting his approach has - in the best case scenario - resulted in far more hits than misses and a misguided idea that just making the playoffs is good enough reason to maintain the status quo.

 

Championship teams are not built this way. Not anymore. Especially in the covid reality.

[wallstreetamigo]

3 minutes ago, aGENT said:

No they are not. Contracts post Covid may be flat or even moderately decreased (like Pearson's in fact is) instead of constantly rising like before, but they're not going off a cliff. They're still recent, direct comparables. Pre Covid Pearson likely would have been looking at a slight raise, probably a tick over $4m. At the very least, high $3's.

 

And again with the straw man 'marginal player' 

 

We've covered this numerous times already but the vast majority are due to injury... Injuries aren't the fault of a GM or a 'pattern'.

 

Loads of very good veteran players have been waived and cleared this year because of a global pandemic, from numerous teams, even 'well run', contending ones. This doesn't prove anything other than this year is a gong show.

For every example you give with a pre covid market value bent, there is one of a contract signed for a player like Pearson at far below those values in the covid reality. 

 

Nobody should care what Pearson would have gotten pre covid. Again its just a weak attempt to rationalize Bennings moves. An 11 point declining top 6 player would not get anywhere near that contract as a UFA now.

 

Like anything its not an all or nothing scenario. Benning is not the only GM who signs dumb contracts of course. But Benning has signed more of them than almost any GM I can think of.

 

The Canucks will likely never get to true contender status with Benning and Weisbrod running the show. Even if you think Benning is a good GM (which I dont) its obvious the team needs a GM who is much better at contracts in a flat cap era. Hand in hand that GM needs to also overhaul pro scouting because this many misses is not a coincidence. 

 

Thats my point though. Veteran players are being waived. Teams waive players for different reasons but that certainly includes to recapture some cap space and/or to get better, cheaper players on their roster.

 

The league is definitely trending younger. Signing a bunch of veterans for their leadership or other such intangibles that mask a players actual on ice skill is the most overestimated factor by many. One or two sure. But like 7 or 8?

[HOFsedins]

11 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

overpaying guys like Pearson, Holtby

TBH I wouldn't say those 2 contracts are overpayments... 

 

13 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

JB says he anticipates no cap concerns. That makes him either a liar or delusional

I think it's a little unfair to say he is a liar or delusional when the media and fans don't have any internal sources or any of the inside groundwork that may be going on. All we can see are the numbers and contracts that are available to us and make a assumption based on that. 

[wallstreetamigo]

And I think I have expressed my opinions on it enough in this thread so carry on if you must I am on to other things. I respect your opinions but you arent changing my mind and I am not changing yours. It seems useless to keep arguing the same points. That doesnt mean I am wrong or you are though. I enjoy bantering with you other than that you have this annoying habit of suggesting you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. Opinions are what they are. If people back it up other than "Benning is God!" or "Benning is $&!#!" its worth listening.

 

Cheers guys.