Shady cap circumvention in Toronto

[Kragar]

8 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I cant remember specifically which players were involved but there was definitely this kind of cap circumvention going on where a player would magically get injured and go on ltir just as another was cleared to play. I know it revolved around being able to fit all of Hamhuis, Erhoff, Bieksa, Edker, Salo, and Ballard on the roster.

It's a while ago, and in a follow up post, I mentioned that I have some hazy memories of "something" shady going on at sometime back around then.

 

Interestingly, all 6 of those you mention played in the final game that year, but prior to that, two of them were often out.  Maybe a forward went down for the final game?

 

Creative minds can often find loopholes in rules.  If having Luongo's recapture stick is punishment for that past transgression, so be it, but then these other teams need to be punished as well.  As I said with the Leafs, same &%^$ different year.  A 6 yr 6M cap penalty wouldn't cover all their weaselly Cap crap they've gotten away with.

[canuck73_3]

Man, if only we had a Cap guru like Gilman our cap situation wouldn't be such a mess 

[wallstreetamigo]

1 hour ago, Kragar said:

It's a while ago, and in a follow up post, I mentioned that I have some hazy memories of "something" shady going on at sometime back around then.

 

Interestingly, all 6 of those you mention played in the final game that year, but prior to that, two of them were often out.  Maybe a forward went down for the final game?

 

Creative minds can often find loopholes in rules.  If having Luongo's recapture stick is punishment for that past transgression, so be it, but then these other teams need to be punished as well.  As I said with the Leafs, same &%^$ different year.  A 6 yr 6M cap penalty wouldn't cover all their weaselly Cap crap they've gotten away with.

Its frustrating when certain teams get retroactively punished like the Luongo recapture. The Canucks should have fought that tooth and nail as high as they could have because they easily had a case to get that penalty thrown out. All it did was allow other teams to open up another bigger, worse loophole of avoiding cap recapture penalties by having players go on permanent ltir rather than retire. 

 

Hossa suddenly allergic to his equipment? Lol. Just one example. Those players non retiring should be punished exactly the same way as Luongo retiring or the Luongo recapture should not have been implemented.

 

Certain teams can willingly break the spirit of the CBA because the CBA is so vague that its almost just discretionary when it comes to punishment.

[Kragar]

7 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Its frustrating when certain teams get retroactively punished like the Luongo recapture. The Canucks should have fought that tooth and nail as high as they could have because they easily had a case to get that penalty thrown out. All it did was allow other teams to open up another bigger, worse loophole of avoiding cap recapture penalties by having players go on permanent ltir rather than retire. 

 

Hossa suddenly allergic to his equipment? Lol. Just one example. Those players non retiring should be punished exactly the same way as Luongo retiring or the Luongo recapture should not have been implemented.

 

Certain teams can willingly break the spirit of the CBA because the CBA is so vague that its almost just discretionary when it comes to punishment.

For sure.  and this garbage of trading these players on permanent LTIR is such a scam, too. 

[Maniwaki Canuck]

9 hours ago, Kragar said:

It's a while ago, and in a follow up post, I mentioned that I have some hazy memories of "something" shady going on at sometime back around then.

 

Interestingly, all 6 of those you mention played in the final game that year, but prior to that, two of them were often out.  Maybe a forward went down for the final game?

 

Creative minds can often find loopholes in rules.  If having Luongo's recapture stick is punishment for that past transgression, so be it, but then these other teams need to be punished as well.  As I said with the Leafs, same &%^$ different year.  A 6 yr 6M cap penalty wouldn't cover all their weaselly Cap crap they've gotten away with.

If I remember right, Salo blew out his achilles tendon playing broomball in the summer of 2010, and Edler had disk surgery on his back during the season, maybe January 2011.  Both got back just in time for the playoffs.  Their injuries made it possible to keep Bieksa, who was widely rumoured to be on the trading block going into that season.  If I remember right ....

[Kragar]

53 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

If I remember right, Salo blew out his achilles tendon playing broomball in the summer of 2010, and Edler had disk surgery on his back during the season, maybe January 2011.  Both got back just in time for the playoffs.  Their injuries made it possible to keep Bieksa, who was widely rumoured to be on the trading block going into that season.  If I remember right ....

Right.  my involvement here was someone claimed Salo came back for game 1, but he played the 2nd half of the season.  nothing at all like what is being talked about with TO and TB.

 

Other juggling going on then may well be more suspect.

[IBatch]

On 4/25/2021 at 3:21 PM, wallstreetamigo said:

Its frustrating when certain teams get retroactively punished like the Luongo recapture. The Canucks should have fought that tooth and nail as high as they could have because they easily had a case to get that penalty thrown out. All it did was allow other teams to open up another bigger, worse loophole of avoiding cap recapture penalties by having players go on permanent ltir rather than retire. 

 

Hossa suddenly allergic to his equipment? Lol. Just one example. Those players non retiring should be punished exactly the same way as Luongo retiring or the Luongo recapture should not have been implemented.

 

Certain teams can willingly break the spirit of the CBA because the CBA is so vague that its almost just discretionary when it comes to punishment.

In Hossa's defense it wasn't fake...something he'd been dealing with for some time.   Robidas island is a perfect way to deal with injured players and the cap.   Luongo could have done that but didn't and chose to retire, that contract allowed our team to bring par of Ballard or Booth in.   Otherwise Luongo would of have 8 x 8 or something.    Don't like that Bettman only penalized us either, but it's not like it's cost us the cup.   Bear and LE cost the club a lot more.    It all adds up for sure.   Looking at the extent of TB overages is actually comical.   Think the league needs to do the playoffs the same way they do the regular season, the cap is the cap and only allow a roster that fits under the cap each game.   

 

Teams need to be competitive and injuries happen.   It's hockey and anything can happen, if a team loses three or four star players and can't bring in players via trades to fill those spots at the TDL or before that,  the playoffs wouldn't be nearly as fun.   The penalties for being over are clear.   The bench needs to shrink.   If TB wins another cup with Kucherov and 90plus million on the bench, every other GM has a case to make a beef about it, especially given getting cheaper team friendly contracts is much easier in TB, Vegas, Dallas, Miami and soon Seattle (not state or jock tax).   In reality, what TB is doing right now isn't much different then what the 2002 Detroit team did.   Well in spirit anyways.   GMs will always push the loopholes to the max, can't be blamed for it....  

Edited April 28, 2021 by IBatch

[wallstreetamigo]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

In Hossa's defense it wasn't fake...something he'd been dealing with for some time.   Robidas island is a perfect way to deal with injured players and the cap.   Luongo could have done that but didn't and chose to retire, that contract allowed our team to bring par of Ballard or Booth in.   Otherwise Luongo would of have 8 x 8 or something.    Don't like that Bettman only penalized us either, but it's not like it's cost us the cup.   Bear and LE cost the club a lot more.    It all adds up for sure.   Looking at the extent of TB overages is actually comical.   Think the league needs to do the playoffs the same way they do the regular season, the cap is the cap and only allow a roster that fits under the cap each game.   

 

Teams need to be competitive and injuries happen.   It's hockey and anything can happen, if a team loses three or four star players and can't bring in players via trades to fill those spots at the TDL or before that,  the playoffs wouldn't be nearly as fun.   The penalties for being over are clear.   The bench needs to shrink.   If TB wins another cup with Kucherov and 90plus million on the bench, every other GM has a case to make a beef about it, especially given getting cheaper team friendly contracts is much easier in TB, Vegas, Dallas, Miami and soon Seattle (not state or jock tax).   In reality, what TB is doing right now isn't much different then what the 2002 Detroit team did.   Well in spirit anyways.   GMs will always push the loopholes to the max, can't be blamed for it....  

I dont blame GM's for doing it. Its only possible because the CBA is so poorly constructed. 

[Kragar]

On 4/28/2021 at 6:42 AM, IBatch said:

Think the league needs to do the playoffs the same way they do the regular season, the cap is the cap and only allow a roster that fits under the cap each game.    

Exactly

[ShawnAntoski]

On 4/25/2021 at 12:21 PM, wallstreetamigo said:

Its frustrating when certain teams get retroactively punished like the Luongo recapture. The Canucks should have fought that tooth and nail as high as they could have because they easily had a case to get that penalty thrown out. All it did was allow other teams to open up another bigger, worse loophole of avoiding cap recapture penalties by having players go on permanent ltir rather than retire. 

 

Hossa suddenly allergic to his equipment? Lol. Just one example. Those players non retiring should be punished exactly the same way as Luongo retiring or the Luongo recapture should not have been implemented.

 

Certain teams can willingly break the spirit of the CBA because the CBA is so vague that its almost just discretionary when it comes to punishment.

The league knows what they are doing but they had to chose a team to be made off as an example and the Canadian team they chose as being one of the worst offenders for making Ratmann look silly was the Canucks.  Imo, the Canucks simply just met the criteria the league was looking for: non American team, not an original six team, not in the east coast and one of the.offenders.

Edited May 1, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[Squamfan]

On 4/25/2021 at 12:21 PM, wallstreetamigo said:

Its frustrating when certain teams get retroactively punished like the Luongo recapture. The Canucks should have fought that tooth and nail as high as they could have because they easily had a case to get that penalty thrown out. All it did was allow other teams to open up another bigger, worse loophole of avoiding cap recapture penalties by having players go on permanent ltir rather than retire. 

 

Hossa suddenly allergic to his equipment? Lol. Just one example. Those players non retiring should be punished exactly the same way as Luongo retiring or the Luongo recapture should not have been implemented.

 

Certain teams can willingly break the spirit of the CBA because the CBA is so vague that its almost just discretionary when it comes to punishment.

To be honest with you, Jim probably didn’t even fight this. He probably asked Gary to waive it , Gary said no and he got scared and went away

[Gurn]

32 minutes ago, Squamfan said:

To be honest with you, Jim probably didn’t even fight this

The owner of the team agreed to the penalty, why should it be Jim's responsibility to get the fine lifted?

[PistolPete13]

On 4/21/2021 at 1:20 PM, Rick Blight said:

Just watch Kucherov suddenly be available for game 1 of the playoffs for the Bolts. Some teams just have a better relationship with Buttman and unfortunately we are not on the favorites list.

DOPS is the only NHL office that has Canucks on speed dial.

 

[SergioMomesso]

And Andersen is on loan to the Marlies on a conditioning stint. SMH

[mll]

Andersen will be coming off LTIR before the end of the regular season.  

 

In 2 games for the Marlies he had a 0.885 sv% and a 3.77 gaa.  

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by mll

[canuck73_3]

On 5/1/2021 at 8:48 AM, gurn said:

The owner of the team agreed to the penalty, why should it be Jim's responsibility to get the fine lifted?

Because everything is Benning’s doing and fault, obviously. 

[Nooks]

At this point the NHL and WWE are pretty much the same.

[Nooks]

On 4/21/2021 at 1:20 PM, Rick Blight said:

Just watch Kucherov suddenly be available for game 1 of the playoffs for the Bolts. Some teams just have a better relationship with Buttman and unfortunately we are not on the favorites list.

This aged well.  LOL Stamkos AND Kucherov good to go Game 1!

[4petesake]

On 4/21/2021 at 1:22 PM, gurn said:

Also if Toronto and Tampa can "get away with it', the least the league can do is void the last year of Loungo's recapture penalty.

Retroactive punishment for what was legal and relatively widespread should have been fought by ownership in court. The formula for the recapture penalty was changed in the most recent CBA and surprise, it had no benefit to the Canucks. Who did it help? Well Nashville for one. Can you imagine the Preds having over $24 million recapture in one season? Me neither, the NHL was never going to let that happen to one of their preferred American partners.

 

So far only Roberto Luongo has created such penalties with his retirement last year.

When Luongo hung up his pads, the Vancouver Canucks and Florida Panthers were each forced to deal with penalties against their salary cap, with the former suffering the bigger charge. The Canucks have a $3.033MM penalty through the 2021-22 season and unfortunately will not receive any relief from this rule change given Luongo’s cap hit was $5.33MM.

The biggest winner (if you can even call it that) out of this new change may be the Nashville Predators, who were in danger of a potential ~$24.6MM cap charge if Shea Weber had retired just before the 2025-26 season. That number will now not eclipse the $7.86MM cap hit he carries, though that means it would be spread out over several years as the entire penalty must still be paid eventually.

 

Previously this is what faced the team, calculated by Pierre Lebrun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gurn]

3 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

Retroactive punishment for what was legal and relatively widespread should have been fought by ownership in court.

Hard to fight, even in court, the rules you voted in favour of.

Unfortunately Aqua voted in favour of the penalty when he was part of the unanamous decision to accept the new cba.