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6 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

The reason this trade interested me was that the pieces are all good............I mean, there is no doubt Quinn is the best piece, 

 

But

 

Smith  is a 17 th OA pick, who is only in his first season himself, so I don't think he has reached his ceiling either

Zacha is a 6th OA pick, who is a big body and can play up, when needed

and a 24th this year, has the potential to be a good player also

 

If Benning could turn that into another core piece, it would be crazy not to do it....................Could he?

 

But as much as it sounds enticing, if it turned bad, its the Can Neely trade all over again..............But I do not necessarily prescribe to the BP wins the trade

As you've said all the pieces in this trade are good pieces/players but I'd have to say a big no this trade. Like you said Quinn is by far the best player in this trade and as a general rule: The team that gets the best player wins the trade, and I really don't feel like trading the best dman this franchise has ever seen.

 

Yes he need to work on his game in his own end still but he just brings too many other things at a level that most NHL franchises have never seen before to think about getting rid of him. As we've seen when he was partnered with Tanev, the right partner with him can make, easily, one of the best defense pairs in the league.

 

 

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Ok guys...........@Darkindianrises, @Dixon Ward

 

Just some random thoughts from what I seen so far.............

 

Team chemistry is over blown........I have talked and played with a few NHL and AHL vets and although there is some truth , guys leave all the time beause they get cut, retire, traded or injured. Most teams do miss a beat, unless the guy is talented, but if you look how fast teams turn over, it really isn't that big of thing.............Sure there are guys you like more, or best friends type of things.............but who ever walks in the door is loved...............for the most part.

 

Also, sorry Dixon....Hughes has been on the ice for 16 goals for at even strength, and 31 against at even strength, that does not echo a good defensive player. I hope Hughes wins the Norris and in Vancouver..........

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2 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

As you've said all the pieces in this trade are good pieces/players but I'd have to say a big no this trade. Like you said Quinn is by far the best player in this trade and as a general rule: The team that gets the best player wins the trade, and I really don't feel like trading the best dman this franchise has ever seen.

 

Yes he need to work on his game in his own end still but he just brings too many other things at a level that most NHL franchises have never seen before to think about getting rid of him. As we've seen when he was partnered with Tanev, the right partner with him can make, easily, one of the best defense pairs in the league.

 

 

Hey, don't get me wrong! I love Hughes, and his warts. And I agree with you...........I just wanted to bring the subject up, to see what you fellows think!

 

LOL...............Now I know! LOL

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Oh dang...I thought this was one of those quarterly threads about a new Canucks jersey.  How disappointed am I?  I wanted to come and see what sort of new rhetoric the Orca haters had to say.

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8 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I think Hughes is only going to get better. His offense will increase, and his defensive awareness and acumen will too. He's a piece that a team builds with. 

General rule of thumb for me is never give up the best player in the trade. Specially when the player in question is currently being coached by Baumgartner.

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The team who gets the best player in the trade usually wins the trade.  In this case New Jersey wins the trade hands down.

 

You inly trade Hughes if you get equal value back, like a Rasmus Dahlin.  You don't trade him for several players or picks of which all are inferior.  Benning can get a 3C somewhere else, he doesn't have to trade his franchise defenseman to get him.  The first round pick is nice but we already will have a good pick this year unless we somehow manage to make the playoffs.

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Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

The team who gets the best player in the trade usually wins the trade.  In this case New Jersey wins the trade hands down.

 

You only trade Hughes if you get equal value back, like a Rasmus Dahlin.  You don't trade him for several players or picks of which all are inferior.  Benning can get a 3C somewhere else, he doesn't have to trade his franchise defenseman to get him.  The first round pick is nice but we already will have a good pick this year unless we somehow manage to make the playoffs.

 

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18 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

@DarkIndianRises

 

I know what you are suggesting in your last post. I get it and agree in part...............but

 

Pettersson......................................Franchise Center

Horvat............................................1st line Center

Demko............................................Franchise Center

Boeser............................................1st line RW

Podkolzin........................................2nd line RW

Smith..............................................1st line LHD

Zacha..............................................2nd/3rd line Center

Hoglander........................................2nd line LW

2021 1st (12 OA)............................

2021 1st (24 OA)...........................

2021 2nd (44th OA).......................

Rathbone.......................................

Juolevi...........................................

Woo...............................................

Lind................................................

McEwen.........................................

Lockwood.......................................

Motte..............................................

Highmore........................................

 

This looks like a Tampa Bay roster in the making. What the Hughes trade does, IMO, is probably controls the Cap a bit better, and fills in holes, that may take a year or more to fill. I am not advocating it, simply saying I see the merit of it.  I think this is pretty close to a ready line up in 2 years.

 

Especially when you add

 

JT Miller

Nate Schmidt

Tyler Myers

Nikita Tryamkin

 

I think the question I want to see answered is, do we think Quinn Hughes can take over a game and control play? If the answer is yes, well, then there is no chance in hell that you trade him, but if you do not see that actually happening (and it is for greater minds than mine), then you can look at a move like this.

 

Don't take this discussion to heart, as it ain't happening, but it does stir up some questions......................

Remember Campbell playing days in BUFF and especially in CHI .. and in Florida.   This was a small PMD, think QHs is smaller, but Brian is listed at 5'10" 180ish so close enough.    This was a guy that could control the pace of an entire game in his prime.   Went to quite a few all-star games, and in 2008 made the second team meaning he was considered a top five guy at the time at least.    Noticed him doing this to us a few times too (controlling the pace of an entire game), he wasn't as flashy as QHs is, or capable on the power play, but pretty darn close and had a better shot.  

 

Feel that's QHs floor.  Not quite a HHOF or Norris type, but for sure a core guy and also invaluable once he got so good he'd take games over on his own.   So far, from the hockey i've watched at least, the only other D we've had that could do this was Jovo in the early 2000's.   Didn't do it with any frequency, but he did have that IT factor, and for sure did control the pace of entire games at times and had clutch ability too.   I've yet to see QHs do that other then getting on the score sheet and for stretches in games ... can't re-call him ever playing a game where an error didn't turn into a goal against or a prime scoring chance.   That needs to be cleaned up quite a bit still. 

 

 QHs so far to me at least, is entertaining to watch especially with the puck,  but isn't as reliable as Campbell was in CHI and Florida late in his career.   The guy was a two-way force, incredible for his ability to slow the pace down, a real calming influence.   Think his last year he was a plus 31 (ok checked it was his second to last) on a so so Florida team too.   Close to HHOF caliber guy really, like Jovo was, both leaders too.
 

IF QHs gets that part of his game sorted out and can still come out with a point most games which seems to be the norm with him good or bad game, the impact would be amazing.   Because of that risk i'd be hesitant to make a trade like this.   Campbell was arguably the first small PMD that benefited hugely after the lockout.   Rafalski was around for the dead puck era but him too.    That extra space and no redline/obstruction was made for these types of D's, really hope QHs works on his shot, and that he one day develops into a guy like this - plus his extra offense, the duo would be unbelievable.   If he could play 30 minutes like Brian did then we've got a future HHOF on our hands.  

 

Ty Smith ... don't know enough about him, but do know he's one of a massive group of uber talented D's entering the league right now.  Dobson, Fox, Foote, Bouchard...there are quite a few guys worth considering, but i don't think the risk is worth it for either QHs or EP (trading them).   Hate to say this but Miller is the guy we could trade...his stock is higher then ever, in his prime, and 7ish years older then Podz.   

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5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The team who gets the best player in the trade usually wins the trade.  In this case New Jersey wins the trade hands down.

 

You inly trade Hughes if you get equal value back, like a Rasmus Dahlin.  You don't trade him for several players or picks of which all are inferior.  Benning can get a 3C somewhere else, he doesn't have to trade his franchise defenseman to get him.  The first round pick is nice but we already will have a good pick this year unless we somehow manage to make the playoffs.

JB already has a 3C in Miller.   Ideally he's the guy anchoring it, and we add wingers who are much easier and cheaper to acquire.  We have two windows.   One that's opening right now while we have Edler, Horvat, Miller, Schmidt, Myers, Pearson et all in their experience primes, and one when most of these guys are gone and EP and QHs are 26-32.    TB is in real trouble, even with Seattle taking one player, they will be way over the cap once Point is re-signed.   Could get a stop gap winger from them who's in that age group as well, on contract for one year.   Palat for instance.   Sort of thing we could do if LE retired.   All it would cost is us trading picks, and if they are desperate we'd get the higher pick.     Could get them to pay us to take Johnson, he'd be fine either on the wing or as a third C to create three scoring lines.     Adding a vet in his "experienced  prime" through this route comes with more cost certainty too.   Target players that actually earn their paycheques.      This is what i'm hoping JB can pull off anyways.   There will come a time, in the not to distant future, when the guys in their experienced prime we have, will have to be used for a re-set, not unlike what COL did, and the two guys in that group that could provide the biggest boost are Miller and Horvat.   

 

The two years JB brings up, as in when this team will be ready to compete, I believe he means compete for the cup, and that will take Podz and OJ working out plus one of Rathbone, Rafferty or Woo.   We need one more LW....Palat is actually a decent target.  Starting 2021 July 1 he has to provide a 20 trade list for his final year at 5.3 which fits our cap structure.   Proven middle six guy who produces well no matter where he slots in, much like Miller does.    Sure maybe Seattle takes him.    But i doubt they do, not with that D.     This would require moving LE, and then we'd have the guns to have three scoring lines with Podz coming in to, and extend the window by one year. 

 

Edit:  Of course Palat is just an example of what JB can do.   Yes we need a 3C ... we have one though if we really want to use it.   Miller anchoring our third line isn't much different then what Vegas did with Stastny last year.   Palat is simply a stop gap move that would give our team a better chance.   Feel TB would have to give up at least a 2nd if they are in trouble and desperate.   Marleau cost a first but wasn't as useful.    We could also get a first for Johnson possibly, and use that first plus something to remove LE.   

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12 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Ok guys...........@Darkindianrises, @Dixon Ward

 

Just some random thoughts from what I seen so far.............

 

Team chemistry is over blown........I have talked and played with a few NHL and AHL vets and although there is some truth , guys leave all the time beause they get cut, retire, traded or injured. Most teams do miss a beat, unless the guy is talented, but if you look how fast teams turn over, it really isn't that big of thing.............Sure there are guys you like more, or best friends type of things.............but who ever walks in the door is loved...............for the most part.

 

Also, sorry Dixon....Hughes has been on the ice for 16 goals for at even strength, and 31 against at even strength, that does not echo a good defensive player. I hope Hughes wins the Norris and in Vancouver..........

Yep.   If this persists the only way QHs has positive value/impact is if he's helping us with a deadly top PP unit.   Replied to a post when LA was in a funk and WG had an atypical minus season...but he still scored 130ish points (think his last ART ROSS, 94) and once you factored in his 50 or so PP points, his overall impact was still on the plus side of the column.   Bure was a little like this too.   Has a few seasons where he was around zero or not nearly as high as other forwards, but was killing it on special teams.   

 

Personally for me, until QHs is also on the PK, he's not really a number on defenseman.  Defense means defense.   Feel for him to excel, he needs a Mitchell type or even Tanev type.   We've already noticed what a difference Hamonic has made for him.   Massive improvement over the first half of the season.   A lot of the bad stuff is cleaning up.     St-Laurent to Doug Harvey, or Methot to prime EK etc.   Who know's, maybe it's Woo.   Rathbone and Woo sure looking good together in the AHL.   Speaking of which .... IF Rathbone has snarl in his game, and comes in a kills it... this D is going to be something else, as well as giving the team options. 

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5 hours ago, IBatch said:

JB already has a 3C in Miller.     

I think I'd rather keep Miller on the wing.  It's good to have him there as he could be a backup centre if someone gets injured, just like he is doing right now.  Same with Kole Lind.  I'd rather bring him up as a 3RW and try and get a 4C through free agency.  Makes more sense to have 4 legit centres on the team while having a couple guys on the wing who can easily convert to centre in case of injury.  If you play Miller and Lind at centre permanently with a bunch of wingers then what happens when an injury occurs to BO or Petey?

 

We need to use someone like Motte and package him with Virtanen to get a 3C.  Highmore plays a similar game to Motte and Motte is a UFA next summer and will want a $2 million+ contract.  I think Virtanen/Motte can get us a decent 3C.  Not sure who is available.  Also, I would use Nate Schmidt as bait to get a 3C.  With Tryamkin, Juolevi and Rathbone coming up Schmidt could be the odd man out and be trade bait.  At this point I'd rather keep Myers than Schmidt as Myers plays a more well rounded game, can hit, fight, play the PK, PP and also play 3 on 3.

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 Quinn Hughes for a young elite forward:  
 

[HughesTrade]-Pettersson-Boeser

Miller-Horvat-Podkolzin

Pearson-####-Hoglander. [Virtanen trade for a 3rd line C?]

Highmore-Sutter-Motte

 

Schmidt-Myers

Juolevi-Hamonic

Rathbone-Tryamkin 

 

Demko

Holtby

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On 4/22/2021 at 5:10 PM, janisahockeynut said:

The reason this trade interested me was that the pieces are all good............I mean, there is no doubt Quinn is the best piece, 

 

But

 

Smith  is a 17 th OA pick, who is only in his first season himself, so I don't think he has reached his ceiling either

Zacha is a 6th OA pick, who is a big body and can play up, when needed

and a 24th this year, has the potential to be a good player also

 

If Benning could turn that into another core piece, it would be crazy not to do it....................Could he?

 

But as much as it sounds enticing, if it turned bad, its the Can Neely trade all over again..............But I do not necessarily prescribe to the BP wins the trade

To many people on here put too much stock in draft position. It means nothing but hopes and dreams. Many __ OA players bust. Many others are better than players that were drafted higher. 

The player ability on the ice currently and progression is what is important.

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14 minutes ago, FaninMex said:

To many people on here put too much stock in draft position. It means nothing but hopes and dreams. Many __ OA players bust. Many others are better than players that were drafted higher. 

The player ability on the ice currently and progression is what is important.

I totally agree with you about where you were drafted once you get here.........I have to put that in because just about everytime, someone will argue draft position, but it does have some bearing for the first 3 years......as it does indicate a ELC players suggested ceiling.............not that they all get there.........

Good point!

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Well, Quinn is great, but Smith is very near.

 

When you look at standings, it makes it possible that Jersey draft another Hughes. If they then will unite all three and trade for Quinn, Benning just has to say: More. You have to offer much more if you really want to do that trade.

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I think many people look at Quinn as a 1st line defenseman, but my definition is a defenseman that either by controlling the play when he is on the ice, or can play all aspects of the game at a near elite level.............that to me is a #1 Dman

 

Quinn Hughes is no where near that yet, and most likely never will.....................but I would love to be proven wrong, sooooo...................

 

But when comparing pieces of the suggested trade........................

 

I like to compare overall impact that the player has on the team. With Hughes and Smith, that is easy as both are playing the same type of game.............

 

So what I do is take PPP + Plus/minus and add the two together and get a number, that when finished is a number that you can compare...............it is not perfect

 

Today.............

 

Hughes has 16 PPP + minus 16, so he is a net zero 

Smith has 6 PPP + minus 5, so he is a net +1

 

So, they are very close from that aspect. It is worth to note that both Hischier and Jack Hughes are injured and their PP is not working....hence their low league standing

 

I would not base my entire argument on this stat, but when looking at even strength points it is Hughes 16 to Smith's 15. This can also be broken down to even strength points per 60 minutes.............Hughes 22:56 per game to Smith's 20:15.

 

We should also be aware that Hughes is 6 months older, and has played 1 more year than Smith.

 

Again, I am not in anyway saying that Hughes and Smith are the same, but what I will say, is that there is less difference , than some people think...............

 

Is the Difference between Hughes and Smith, = Pavel Zacha and a 2021 24th OA pick..........................I would say no, but I am only one...............................

 

I do not go by the adage that the team that gets the best player always wins the trade........................................

 

Something I have been playing with in this regards is that adding 3 quality pieces and only loosing 1 quality piece, moves us further up in our rebuild and closer to actually competing for the cup..................I would argue at least 1 year closer, which is 1 more year of all the players we have competing for the cup earlier.............this gives us 1 year more to compete for the cup............and gives us a more rounded team................... 

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If NJ gets Luke Hughes, I can see them overpaying to get Quinn.  It would be such a good marketing ploy.  Not sure what offer would make VAN consider a trade though. 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/22/2021 at 10:49 AM, Jimmy McGill said:

Hughes is a special talent. He'll never have a physical element but we have a potential ppg d man in the making, at his high point in his career. We should be building around that. Even if he can't bring that during the playoffs, we need the regular season production. 

 

I get the desire to ditch Loui, but thats a mistake that is just too costly to get rid of. It would have happened by now if it were possible. 

 

Likely see hm bought out or demoted to the AHL, wherever that will be next year. 

The best part of QHs for me so far, was the bubble.   He didn't get killed liked a few media types speculated, and for sure he did take a lot of punishment,  and still managed to produce at a similar clip in the post season, first time out.   EP too but to a lesser degree is anyone in the media questioning his ability to take the punishment.    Still worried about him myself because he's such an important part on the team, but this goes a long way for me as well in proving these two are special special players.   Only Linden and Bure stepped in and did as much or more so early on.  Naslund, Bertuzzi and the Sedins took several years and reps before they got there. 

 

Still a little worried about them as their careers go on as far as durability goes, but that comes with the territory with any guys like this.  Sure CHI fans also worried about Kane, same size as QHs really.   

 

Podz...well he's 6'4" and plays like Motte with more skills.   Won't need to worry about him ... the future is bright, agree the time to ditch is gone, we need that cap space safe and not locked up with a boner head trade just to get a better roster player that's also an anchor in now like Tyler Johnson or Killorn, and need every bit of what's left in our pool to support these guys windows, so no thanks on trading a first unless it's another JT Miller steal.   

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

The best part of QHs for me so far, was the bubble.   He didn't get killed liked a few media types speculated, and for sure he did take a lot of punishment,  and still managed to produce at a similar clip in the post season, first time out.   EP too but to a lesser degree is anyone in the media questioning his ability to take the punishment.    Still worried about him myself because he's such an important part on the team, but this goes a long way for me as well in proving these two are special special players.   Only Linden and Bure stepped in and did as much or more so early on.  Naslund, Bertuzzi and the Sedins took several years and reps before they got there. 

 

Still a little worried about them as their careers go on as far as durability goes, but that comes with the territory with any guys like this.  Sure CHI fans also worried about Kane, same size as QHs really.   

 

Podz...well he's 6'4" and plays like Motte with more skills.   Won't need to worry about him ... the future is bright, agree the time to ditch is gone, we need that cap space safe and not locked up with a boner head trade just to get a better roster player that's also an anchor in now like Tyler Johnson or Killorn, and need every bit of what's left in our pool to support these guys windows, so no thanks on trading a first unless it's another JT Miller steal.   

I suspect Johnson is on his way to Seattle with a 1st from Tampa.

 

But on our team, we have to support our smaller skilled guys with tougher players, thats the model we have to follow based on our drafts. And thats just fine it should be possible. 

 

I guess the question is when are we going to be able to do that? adding Podkolzin and Tryamkin for roughly 3 min in cap certainly helps for next year but we need a couple more guys that can up the teams physical play. I don't know if one of those guys is Lind or not, haven't watched him play this year. 

 

 

 

 

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