[Discussion] Canucks should fire Benning and hire Jeff Gorton as GM in the off-season

[FaninMex]

1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

There is a lot to unpack here.

 

First sentence: HaNo

Second sentance

Awesome post. Keep it up

[wallstreetamigo]

Just now, FaninMex said:

Awesome post. Keep it up

Lol hit submit by mistake. Dont worry I am editing it. 

[FaninMex]

21 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

There is a lot to unpack here.

 

First sentence: Hard No

Second sentance: Hell Yes

Is this your Edit? Your "a lot to unpack"? 

[wallstreetamigo]

15 minutes ago, FaninMex said:

Is this your Edit? Your "a lot to unpack"? 

Nope just edited it now. Looking forward to your response.

Edited May 6, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[Odjick the Warrior]

1 hour ago, joe-max said:

With 8 first round picks (including a 1 and 2overall) in four years one should expect the team to have a decent talent pool. And once again impatience is taking over.

Are you crazy?

Do you know how hard it is too accumulate 8 1st rounders in 4 years?

That means the GM is moving veterans out for high draft picks and maximizing asset value which is why the Rangers are knocking on the playoffs next year and were 10th or 11th in scoring and 13th for goals against which is much better then the Canucks and the Canucks have been rebuilding longer then the Rangers.

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, IjustNEEDaTROYgamble said:

Are you crazy?

Do you know how hard it is too accumulate 8 1st rounders in 4 years?

That means the GM is moving veterans out for high draft picks and maximizing asset value which is why the Rangers are knocking on the playoffs next year and were 10th or 11th in scoring and 13th for goals against which is much better then the Canucks and the Canucks have been rebuilding longer then the Rangers.

Look at Gorton's trade list. The guy has a few head scratchers in there but overall he knows how to fleece other teams and get rid of players he no longer needs. 

 

A few of those trades he should be convicted for assault.

Edited May 6, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[Odjick the Warrior]

Just now, wallstreetamigo said:

Look at Gorton's trade list. The guy has a few head scratchers in there but overall he knows how to fleece other teams and get rid of players he no longer needs. 

I agree it’s just the guy was acting like attaining 8 1st rounders is no big deal or common, the Canucks wish they could get 8 1st rounders in 8 years 

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, IjustNEEDaTROYgamble said:

I agree it’s just the guy was acting like attaining 8 1st rounders is no big deal or common, the Canucks wish they could get 8 1st rounders in 8 years 

Its practically unheard of, especially when you can also actually do a real retool at the same time. 

[FaninMex]

59 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

There is a lot to unpack here.

 

Keep Benning. - Hard No

 

New coaches. Replace them all except Clark. - Hell Yes

 

I really liked the look of the team on paper. I honestly thought that we had a chance to be top 2. - Please put down the bong.  -  Our D and forward group more than matches anyone in this division. Plus I figured that Demko would get hot and Holtby would regain his stride with Clark. I figured it would take our D corps 10 games to get used to each other and we would be off to the races. If you agree with the bottom, you can see my point about the coach being the X factor.

 

The fact that we were winning after Pettersson got injured says a lot about the coaching and over relying on the few top6 players that Green trusts. Green over playing Pettersson probably lead to the injury. - Have to agree

 

1 - Those who paid close attention to why he had a good last year in Boston vs the environment, roster, and opportunity in Vancouver seriously questioned this signing at the time.  -  Maybe a few. I doubt anyone could have predicted the drop off to be so severe. Plus past history showed there was chemistry between him and the Sedins. So, roster and environment were met for him to succeed. We also have to accept that the mindset of the Canucks changed when Linden left. So, how much of this was on the Linden plan or the Benning rebuild plan that came after.

 

2 - The Roussel situation is why you don't give 4th liners 4 year terms.  -  How many years would you propose? If I remember correctly most said it was 1 year long but had to be paid to get him. Remember we were losers with some up and coming players. One year on a cap that was foreseeable going to keep rising was not terrible

 

3 - The Canucks should have used their cap space to trade for those type of veteran overpriced players they coveted from cap atrapped teams while getting prospects and picks added to take them. The end result of having sub par vets on overpriced contracts to help the kids from crumbling under the pressure they have lived with their whole lives woukd have been net tge same. Just with a bunch more picks and more prospect depth. Assets that could have been used to then acquire actual impact players.  -  Bolded, I can agree with this. The underlined part is a bit different. At this level, sometimes it has to do with confidence that helps them be successful or not. The second part of the sentence could be the same as you have less choice over who you are getting if the goal is just to get picks and build the pool. Beagle is a heart and soul player that seems to be great in the locker room. Sutter is a great guy to have in the locker room. They build up the room and you know what you are getting. Plus at the start of the season, those were the guys who carried the team for how many games. Petty and the top 6 didn't show up at the start of the season.

 

4 - His trading history is a bag of burning $&!# overall. Miller and Schmidt, 2 cap casualties of other teams, were pretty good. Motte for Vanek took a long time but is ok. Pearson for Gudbranson was good but any benefit is completely nullified and then some by the original teade for Guddy. Gaudette isnt a bum. He just isnt a 3rd line center like the Canucks tried to shoehorn him into. Even with largely inept offensive linemates, he was actually in the top echelon of the league in generating quality scoring chances. Someone posted the stats on here the other day.   -  I have to get to work so I can argue this point later but he is. Look at his shot selection. How he carries the puck. I predict and it is only an opinion but I do not think he has long for the NHL.

 

5 - It is a big deal. An unforced error by Benning that also ruined what could have been a good trade. A top 6 of Miller-EP-Boeser-Hoglander-Horvat-Toffoli suddenly makes a 3rd supporting line of Pearson-Sutter-Gaudette much more effective. Then replace Sutter with a better center and you have 3 lines that can generate offense. Toffoli has been fantastic for Montreal this year. Easily one of their most important players. He has been consistent and a game changer.  -  If Toffoli wanted to stay, he would be here. He got an opportunity to play in Mon and took it. Oh well spilled milk. Move on.

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by FaninMex
It is in the quote

[wallstreetamigo]

I do not question Beagle and Sutter are good guys in the room. But they were not must haves at the prices paid. 

 

I know a lot of nhl and former nhl players. The need a bunch of veterans to teach kids how to win is less relevent now than at any time in history. Young players now are mentally tougher and more prepared to handle the ups and downs. Its great to have vets to help them and I dont completely discount that. But at some point it becomes redundant. You need one or two at reasonable prices, not 5 or 6 that are overpaid.

 

Gaudette is not a star and was never going to be. But take a look at the guys replacing him on the roster. Not an offensive skill to be found. 

 

Toffoli himself said he wanted to stay. But that there was limited contact between Benning and him/his agent. 

[joe-max]

31 minutes ago, IjustNEEDaTROYgamble said:

Are you crazy?

Do you know how hard it is too accumulate 8 1st rounders in 4 years?

That means the GM is moving veterans out for high draft picks and maximizing asset value which is why the Rangers are knocking on the playoffs next year and were 10th or 11th in scoring and 13th for goals against which is much better then the Canucks and the Canucks have been rebuilding longer then the Rangers.

Well, that's what I'm saying. If you go full rebuild (which the Rangers did and the Canucks did not), you will accumulate a lot of young players within a short period of time and you should be prepared to give them some breathing room to develop. If the firing was purely performance based, which was communicated, it was a short sighted/impatient move. Expecting a full turnaround in three years is unrealistic, especially if your most experienced veterans are Brendan Smith, Jack Johnson and Keith Kinkaid. Let's see how this plays out in the long run.

[Odjick the Warrior]

1 minute ago, joe-max said:

Well, that's what I'm saying. If you go full rebuild (which the Rangers did and the Canucks did not), you will accumulate a lot of young players within a short period of time and you should be prepared to give them some breathing room to develop. If the firing was purely performance based, which was communicated, it was a short sighted/impatient move. Expecting a full turnaround in three years is unrealistic, especially if your most experienced veterans are Brendan Smith, Jack Johnson and Keith Kinkaid. Let's see how this plays out in the long run.

Yeah short sighted and impatient moves is James Dolan’s calling card

I don’t know if it’s true but I read in one of the insiders was that Dolan told Gorton and Davidson “ I was going to fire you two in a week when the season is over but I am going to fire you now instead”

 

[FaninMex]

36 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I do not question Beagle and Sutter are good guys in the room. But they were not must haves at the prices paid. 

 

I know a lot of nhl and former nhl players. The need a bunch of veterans to teach kids how to win is less relevent now than at any time in history. Young players now are mentally tougher and more prepared to handle the ups and downs. Its great to have vets to help them and I dont completely discount that. But at some point it becomes redundant. You need one or two at reasonable prices, not 5 or 6 that are overpaid.

 

Gaudette is not a star and was never going to be. But take a look at the guys replacing him on the roster. Not an offensive skill to be found. 

 

Toffoli himself said he wanted to stay. But that there was limited contact between Benning and him/his agent. 

1. OK. Agree to disagree.

2. I did not say a bunch but I said that a few key vets are needed. You need the right room to thrive or you are the Oilers that played too many young players with no stabilizing effect from vets. 

3. We will have to agree to disagree with regards to the Skill regards. We need energy players that will be able to play bottom 6. Highmore is a good, high energy bottom 6 player. We got a player that we can use for a player that had no place and may be in Europe sooner rather than later.

4. I think Benning confirmed what you typed. Sure, it happens. I am saying that it is not as big a deal. It is what it is. The reaction on the board here has been beyond insane. Teams lose players all the time. It is not the end of this team as many make it out to be. 

 

If Benning is gone fine, if he is here the team will get better. I doubt we are going to become Buffalo because we have Benning. I see progress and I see a better team with a new coaching staff.

[wallstreetamigo]

5 hours ago, FaninMex said:

1. OK. Agree to disagree.

2. I did not say a bunch but I said that a few key vets are needed. You need the right room to thrive or you are the Oilers that played too many young players with no stabilizing effect from vets. 

3. We will have to agree to disagree with regards to the Skill regards. We need energy players that will be able to play bottom 6. Highmore is a good, high energy bottom 6 player. We got a player that we can use for a player that had no place and may be in Europe sooner rather than later.

4. I think Benning confirmed what you typed. Sure, it happens. I am saying that it is not as big a deal. It is what it is. The reaction on the board here has been beyond insane. Teams lose players all the time. It is not the end of this team as many make it out to be. 

 

If Benning is gone fine, if he is here the team will get better. I doubt we are going to become Buffalo because we have Benning. I see progress and I see a better team with a new coaching staff.

The Oilers had veterans in their lineup. They just had young players at the top of their lineup playing more minutes than they should and crappy vets who couldnt move the needle for their team. Sound familiar?

 

Saying Gaudette will be in Europe is an assumption based on a dislike for the player. Our bottom 6 has about 6 guys who are "energy guys". Winning teams have some skill in their bottom 6 either offensively or defensively. They dont have all guys who play dump and change.

 

Unless Benning is gone, the cap space will very likely be filled with more sub par glue players and this core will get no window to be competitive.

[Silky mitts]

7 hours ago, FaninMex said:

You didn't say anything here. What a waste of a response.

If you followed the team and are not a casual I wouldn’t need to explain . Just look at the toffoli debacle for a recent example .

[smithers joe]

40 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The Oilers had veterans in their lineup. They just had young players at the top of their lineup playing more minutes than they should and crappy vets who couldnt move the needle for their team. Sound familiar?

 

Saying Gaudette will be in Europe is an assumption based on a dislike for the player. Our bottom 6 has about 6 guys who are "energy guys". Winning teams have some skill in their bottom 6 either offensively or defensively. They dont have all guys who play dump and change.

 

Unless Benning is gone, the cap space will very likely be filled with more sub par glue players and this core will get no window to be competitive.

maybe buffalo will fire their gm and we can get him. then we could fire our owners and get nj's owner.

[24K PureCool]

9 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

You should go take a look at his trade history. He absolutely knows how to make the kinds of trades that would help this team. He has a few questionable ones on there but overall just a lot of really good moves and signings too.

Looking at the trade record, if you need someone to maximize asset when blowing the team up for a rebuild, Gorton is your guy. When you need someone to maneuver the team to contender status like we are, the trade record ain't that impressive. Most of the head scratch from him are the kind of move that build the team up to contender status.

 

Probably not a deal breaker but does make you to stop and think a little bit more about it.

[wallstreetamigo]

5 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

Looking at the trade record, if you need someone to maximize asset when blowing the team up for a rebuild, Gorton is your guy. When you need someone to maneuver the team to contender status like we are, the trade record ain't that impressive. Most of the head scratch from him are the kind of move that build the team up to contender status.

 

Probably not a deal breaker but does make you to stop and think a little bit more about it.

You do realize that on its current path the Canucks are probably going to need another at least partial tear down scenario in order to actually have a truly competitive team, right?

 

If you put Gorton's trade record against Bennings, which strategy do you think helps this team more, trading vets for other assets and picks or trading picks and prospects for tweeners and bottom 6 energy guys?

[24K PureCool]

5 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

You do realize that on its current path the Canucks are probably going to need another at least partial tear down scenario in order to actually have a truly competitive team, right?

 

If you put Gorton's trade record against Bennings, which strategy do you think helps this team more, trading vets for other assets and picks or trading picks and prospects for tweeners and bottom 6 energy guys?

You just have to bring everything back to Benning don't you. 

 

My point is that we shouldn't just dive head first into him without considering other candidates should JB be justifiably be shown the door like you suggest. 

 

Also I'm in record here saying we probably need a mini rebuild/retool and it will take at least 2 offseasons to straighten the ship. Sure we can use him to maximize our asset but a late first rounder may not be what we really need at this point. If we are go8ng to maximize the value of our good vets, it should he for blue chip prospects that are close to ready instead of a 20 something pick that may take another 3 or 4 years to be impactful.

Edited May 6, 2021 by 24K PureCool

[joe-max]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The Oilers had veterans in their lineup. They just had young players at the top of their lineup playing more minutes than they should and crappy vets who couldnt move the needle for their team. Sound familiar?

 

We shouldn't forget that the "overpaid" veterans (Sutter, Beagle, Edler, Roussell, Pearson) played a big role in what was one of the more successful post seasons in franchise history last year. Even Eriksson contributed (a bit).