Where are the Canucks with a good 3rd line Center and another Top 4 quality defenseman?

[wallstreetamigo]

21 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

This team might not be a Danault or a Hamilton from being a contender, but they would be if.....

 

1) Danault + a top 4 quality dman (like a David Savard or Adam Larsson) came here

 

2) Hamilton + decent 3rd line C like Wenneberg came here.

 

Clearing 12 million in cap space would give us that option.

 

1) Go HARD after one of Danault or Hamilton

2) Depending on which big fish you land, go after a decent 3rd line C or top 4 quality dman with your other freed up money.

 

Even if the Canucks were to miss on both Danault and Hamilton per se, signing 2nd tier guys like Wenneberg and Savard would go a long ways.  This Canucks team is a good hockey team with another top 4 quality defenseman + a good 3rd line center.

ps - and just because I am completely insane, I am going to *consider* the possibility that we land both Hamilton and Danault.  :-p

 

Remember when we were one Loui Eriksdon, Jay Beagle, Antoine Roussel, Tim Schaller, Erik Gudbranson, Brandon Sutter, Tanner Pearsom,Tyler Toffoli, etc away from being a contender?

 

I do.

 

And there is probably a 2% chance at best we land one of those players, let alone two or three.

 

A more likely scenario is Benning focuses on another OEL trade, loses out on any of them, and signs a bunch of next tier guys to bad contracts to try to cover for it. Its kind of his m.o.

 

Danault, Hamilton, Wennberg, Savard, and Larsen are going to want to sign for lots of money and term and to places where they want to get top 6 and top pairing opportunity.

 

Expecting them to sign in Van to be 3rd line pk guys or sit behind Hughes for pp time on the 2nd unit at best so we can run Pearson as the 4th forward is completely unrealistic imo. We already have a young guy who would probably help the top unit in Rathbone sitting behind Pearson and even Myers on the 2nd unit.

Edited May 9, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[Phil_314]

58 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

With Tortorella leaving I think Columbus will be back in rebuild mode.  They threw away a stud in PLD for a soft lazy goal scorer in Laine, all because of Torts.

 

I would go after Boone Jenner as our 3C for next year.  He's on a decent contract for one more year and would be better than most UFA options.

On a name/ reputation basis I agree, though I think I haven't seen enough of him to speak either way.
That being said, I saw a proposal on HF that looked pretty intriguing, in that Seth Jones and Jenner would come to Vancouver for J.T. Miller and Nate Schmidt.
Vancouver gets at #1 RD and #3 C (though some sites comment that he's played better on the wing) and CBJ gets a two-way C who can play big minutes and an RD to replace some of Jones' vacated minutes.  Vancouver also saves a couple million dollars (might need to get a more stable #1 LHD but maybe Jones' pair could eat some of Hughes' tough minutes).

Hoglander - Petey - Boeser
Pearson - Horvat - Podkolzin
Highmore(?) - Jenner - Lind
Motte - Graovac - MacEwen
Hawryluk

Hughes - Hamonic
Juolevi - Jones (this pair could bump up the lineup if OJ proves ready for shutdown minutes next to Seth, or at least alternate handling the #1 lines with the H's)
Rathbone - Myers

[Patel Bure]

8 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Remember when we were one Loui Eriksdon, Jay Beagle, Antoine Roussel, Tim Schaller, Erik Gudbranson, Brandon Sutter, Tanner Pearsom,Tyler Toffoli, etc away from being a contender?

 

I do.

 

And there is probably a 2% chance at best we land one of those players, let alone two or three.

 

A more likely scenario is Benning focuses on another OEL trade, loses out on any of them, and signs a bunch of next tier guys to bad contracts to try to cover for it. Its kind of his m.o.

 

Danault, Hamilton, Wennberg, Savard, and Larsen are going to want to sign for lots of money and term and to places where they want to get top 6 and top pairing opportunity.

 

Expecting them to sign in Van to be 3rd line pk guys or sit behind Hughes for pp time on the 2nd unit at best so we can run Pearson as the 4th forward is completely unrealistic imo. We already have a young guy who would probably help the top unit in Rathbone sitting behind Pearson and even Myers on the 2nd unit.

Guys like Gudbranson, Sutter, Beagle, Roussel, Schaller, and Eriksson weren’t brought in because management felt like we were contenders.  They were brought in because the young guys on our team weren’t ready to fill those roles and the presence of those vets/age gap players would help the young guys play in roles that would be more suitable for their development.

 

The presence of Toffoli helped us make the 2nd round last year (although I’m quite upset that we let him walk).

 

Also - why would you list us at 2%?   We have a strong young core and we would have 12 extra million under my scenario.  What current elite team has 12 million extra in cap space?

 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

8 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

Guys like Gudbranson, Sutter, Beagle, Roussel, Schaller, and Eriksson weren’t brought in because management felt like we were contenders.  They were brought in because the young guys on our team weren’t ready to fill those roles and the presence of those vets/age gap players would help the young guys play in roles that would be more suitable for their development.

 

The presence of Toffoli helped us make the 2nd round last year (although I’m quite upset that we let him walk).

 

Also - why would you list us at 2%?   We have a strong young core and we would have 12 extra million under my scenario.  What current elite team has 12 million extra in cap space?

 

 

Thats not what Benning said. Every one of those signings/trades he said it was to make the team playoff competitive.

 

Bottom feeding teams giving up 1st round picks to move 1 year of cap is even worse asset management than we already get from Benning.

[Alflives]

59 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

there's a few things that play into it, covid cap, age, injury concerns... so I just can't see him getting anything over 2 mil per for 1 year from anyone, so why not just stay here? but if someone does offer him more $ and term thats great, he's a good guy and good for him.

 

you could be right about Graovac tho, that would obviously be great if he could handle that role. My big concern would be his small amount of face offs, but thats not necessarily something he can't do, we just don't know. 

Don’t know is Sutter will stay in the same room, when earning half what he was before.  To take so much less he might be more comfortable in a new room.  Same with Edler.  Yes they will get a lot less, but that’s easier on their egos in a new room.  Yes, I know that’s crazy, but these guys are ego driven, right?  

[Chris12345]

So my idea, which will get lit up is to put fan favorite JT Miller at center on the 3rd line!

 

Don't you worry, he'll still get ice time on the pk and pp.

 

Who plays first line left wing? Zach Hyman.

 

On d, another Zach....Bogosian.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Chris12345

[JM_]

39 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Don’t know is Sutter will stay in the same room, when earning half what he was before.  To take so much less he might be more comfortable in a new room.  Same with Edler.  Yes they will get a lot less, but that’s easier on their egos in a new room.  Yes, I know that’s crazy, but these guys are ego driven, right?  

I wish Loui wanted a new room. Or had a sense of shame. 

[Patel Bure]

5 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Thats not what Benning said. Every one of those signings/trades he said it was to make the team playoff competitive.

 

Bottom feeding teams giving up 1st round picks to move 1 year of cap is even worse asset management than we already get from Benning.

“Competitive” is a relative term.

 

What Benning meant by that term was that he expected that the group would make a push for the playoffs and would be ‘competitive’ game in game out.  The vets would get the young guys to come good on ice and off ice habits.   The plan was successful in a lot of respects.  Even though we didn’t make the playoffs in 16, 17, 18, and 19, we were right there in the playoff race for most of those seasons up until the trade deadline (with the exception of 2017?).   During that time, our team couldn’t handle any significant injuries to the D and so that was the reason why we often freefalled after the deadline.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, Phil_314 said:

On a name/ reputation basis I agree, though I think I haven't seen enough of him to speak either way.
That being said, I saw a proposal on HF that looked pretty intriguing, in that Seth Jones and Jenner would come to Vancouver for J.T. Miller and Nate Schmidt.
Vancouver gets at #1 RD and #3 C (though some sites comment that he's played better on the wing) and CBJ gets a two-way C who can play big minutes and an RD to replace some of Jones' vacated minutes.  Vancouver also saves a couple million dollars (might need to get a more stable #1 LHD but maybe Jones' pair could eat some of Hughes' tough minutes).

Hoglander - Petey - Boeser
Pearson - Horvat - Podkolzin
Highmore(?) - Jenner - Lind
Motte - Graovac - MacEwen
Hawryluk

Hughes - Hamonic
Juolevi - Jones (this pair could bump up the lineup if OJ proves ready for shutdown minutes next to Seth, or at least alternate handling the #1 lines with the H's)
Rathbone - Myers

Seth Jones is a stud. He’d be one of my top 3 picks to partner with Hughes. He’s actually a UFA in 2022 so although you can get him for free next summer he will command a massive contract, probably similar to Pietrangelo. 
 

I’d go after Jenner alone as the cost won’t be as high and then go all in on Jones in 2022. 

[Patel Bure]

1 hour ago, Chris12345 said:

So my idea, which will get lit up is to put fan favorite JT Miller at center on the 3rd line!

 

Don't you worry, he'll still get ice time on the pk and pp.

 

Who plays first line left wing? Zach Hyman.

 

On d, another Zach....Bogosian.

I would *possibly* be interested in this idea of Podkolzin can step into the line-up next season and be “Miller-esque” in terms of being a top line forward.   Having said that, I would still rather invest in a good 3rd line C so that we have three solid scoring lines.  

[Patel Bure]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I wish Loui wanted a new room. Or had a sense of shame. 

Eriksson reminds of George Costanza from Seinfeld.  That time when George’s work caught him faking being handicapped but weren’t allowed to fire him for another year.

[Toyotasfan]

How about a new coach ? Tocchet is available, he made Arizona a much better team than their talent level would suggest , plays a great defensive system, believes in never taking a night off and his teams are tough to play against.

[wallstreetamigo]

51 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

“Competitive” is a relevant term.

 

What Benning meant by that term was that he expected that the group would make a push for the playoffs and would be ‘competitive’ game in game out.  The vets would get the young guys to come good on ice and off ice habits.   The plan was successful in a lot of respects.  Even though we didn’t make the playoffs in 16, 17, 18, and 19, we were right there in the playoff race for most of those seasons up until the trade deadline (with the exception of 2017?).   During that time, our team couldn’t handle any significant injuries to the D and so that was the reason why we often freefalled after the deadline.

Competitive isnt a relative term. Either you are actually competitive or you arent.

 

Under the last two coaches with the rosters Benning has put together, no one in their right mind could say the team has been competitive consistently. 

 

Said it a million times on here. As someone who literally knows 100 's of current and former nhl players, nothing is as overestimated by fans as much as the myth that young players need overpriced vets to learn how to work hard, win, or develop good habits on and off the ice. These kids now are more mentally and physically prepared than at any time in history. You need maybe one or two, not 7 or 8 on a team especially when they cant actually add much on the ice.

 

Much of the time, all veteran players are is a coach's roadblock to playing younger players.

 

Being in the playoff race until the end of the season means jack squat in terms of competitiveness. The loser point pretty much guarantees almost all teams will be in the face late.

[Patel Bure]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Competitive isnt a relative term. Either you are actually competitive or you arent.

 

Under the last two coaches with the rosters Benning has put together, no one in their right mind could say the team has been competitive consistently. 

 

Said it a million times on here. As someone who literally knows 100 's of current and former nhl players, nothing is as overestimated by fans as much as the myth that young players need overpriced vets to learn how to work hard, win, or develop good habits on and off the ice. These kids now are more mentally and physically prepared than at any time in history. You need maybe one or two, not 7 or 8 on a team especially when they cant actually add much on the ice.

 

Much of the time, all veteran players are is a coach's roadblock to playing younger players.

 

Being in the playoff race until the end of the season means jack squat in terms of competitiveness. The loser point pretty much guarantees almost all teams will be in the face late.

There's a difference between "competing for a cup," and "trying to make your boys competitive night and night out so that you have a shot of crawling into the playoffs and gaining some experience."   The latter is what the Canucks were trying to do.   Were they successful?  Obviously not, but the kids DID compete hard night in night out.   

 

We might have to agree to disagree with regards to veteran leadership, veteran presence, and intangibles.   

[wallstreetamigo]

4 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

There's a difference between "competing for a cup," and "trying to make your boys competitive night and night out so that you have a shot of crawling into the playoffs and gaining some experience."   The latter is what the Canucks were trying to do.   Were they successful?  Obviously not, but the kids DID compete hard night in night out.   

 

We might have to agree to disagree with regards to veteran leadership, veteran presence, and intangibles.   

Why the hell would any team choose to make their goal limping into the playoffs to get experience losing?

 

Our team gets outcompeted a lot. And has for all of Bennings tenure. Sorry to be the ond to burst your bubble.

[Ghostsof1915]

1 hour ago, Toyotasfan said:

How about a new coach ? Tocchet is available, he made Arizona a much better team than their talent level would suggest , plays a great defensive system, believes in never taking a night off and his teams are tough to play against.

Sub .500 coach is NOT an upgrade. 

[Coconuts]

I imagine Sutter will be retained, particularly if it looks like Beagle won't be available next season. There's not exactly a glut of defensively responsible centers that will be available via ufa, and Sutter's a known quantity as a Canuck. He knows the guys, he's a positive presence in the room, and he plays tough minutes. I don't believe we have anyone in the system prepared to capably step in and play those minutes.

 

Re-sign him to a shorter term deal at a smaller cap hit and give him some young talent on at least one of his wings. He's not the black hole offensively some people would make him out to be. Retaining him allows us time to find or groom his replacement. 

 

Sutter also costs us nothing but money and cap space, as opposed to the cost required to bring in a guy from another organization via trade. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Coconuts

[Patel Bure]

40 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Why the hell would any team choose to make their goal limping into the playoffs to get experience losing?

 

 

Because playoff hockey is a completely different animal and often accounts for the greatest gains and learning experiences that a player often makes?    

 

In 2015 for instance, even though the Canucks lost to Calgary, Bo Horvat clearly took his game to another level from that experience.  

 

Playoff experience is very important for a young developing core.   Losing or not.   
 

Look at what the Canucks and Demko learned about one another in the bubble.   Think playoff exposure didn’t help Demko out at all?  C’mon son.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Arrow 1983]

9 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Where are the Canucks with a good 3rd line Center and another Top 4 quality defenseman?

 

I will try not to turn this into a “trade idea” or “proposal” type thread but if I am unsuccessful in doing so, please move to the appropriate forum:

 

Here is my basic position as it relates to the Canucks:

 

1) Morale amongst players and the fans is low right now and the core of this team cannot go into next season believing that next year could be a repeat of this year....especially in the case of our core players + Miller, Schmidt, Myers, Holtby, etc., that were led to believe that we are making a push forward.  A perceived deviation reflects poorly on the organization which may deter future UFA’s from signings here (code for: “players talk with each other.”)

 

2) The Canucks need a new coach.  No more internal promotions.  Pony up the money for a proven winner such as Gerard Gallant or Claude Julien.  Gallant absolutely killed it in Florida and Vegas, and also knew how to properly utilize Nate Schmidt.  Unless there is information that we are not privy to, I find it baffling that no one has jumped out to hire Gallant as of yet.  
 

3) The Canucks aren’t as far away from competing as one might think.  Although we got off to a dreadful start to the year thanks to a tough schedule, we were definitely holding our own before our Covid outbreak.  I am of the belief that our player before Covid was a true reflection of where we are at as a team, and I think we can take another level with a good 3rd line C and another top 4 quality defenseman.

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser

Hoglander-Horvat-Podkolzin

Pearson-#####-Virtanen/Lind

Highmore-Graovich-Motte

 

Schmidt-#### / #####-Schmidt
Hughes-Hamonic

Juolevi/Rathbone-Myers

 

Demko

Holtby

 

4) Here is the “proposal” part of my post:  Taking my first three points into account, I think it would be a good idea for the Canucks to use their 1st + ONE of Juolevi or Rathbone to get rid of Beagle, Eriksson, and Roussel who will be in their final years of their contracts (and so unlike this past season, other teams will likely be willing to accept those contracts).  With 12 million off the books, the Canucks could then spend that money on a good 3rd line center (Wenneberg, Danault, etc.) + another top quality defenseman (Savard, Hamilton, Larsson).

 

If the Canucks choose to go this route, they should make these deals well before July 1st.

 

1) It gives a clear message to the players and fans that they are serious about competing next season (which elevates the spirit of the team and fans).

 

2) UFA’s start to look at Vancouver in a more serious light once again.

Totally agree with a 3rd line center and a 4th dman. But next year I don't see them getting with with the cap restrictions. 3rd line center should be top priority. Granlund is my pick.

 

Your forth line is terrible we have to keep Beagle or our pk will stink. Graovac is a career Ahler he is already 28 years old. Highmore isn't much better. Plus neither bring the toughness this team requires. Virtanen has a good chance of not playing next season. Honestly the team needs to get rid of him he doesn't produce on the thirdline, doesn't play the pk isn't tough enough for bottom 6 duties  and doesn't compete hard enough for top 6 mins. He was done prior to all the side show stuff (innocent until found guilty by court of law not social media.)

Cut the loses and re-gain the cap.

 

[Arrow 1983]

28 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I imagine Sutter will be retained, particularly if it looks like Beagle won't be available next season. There's not exactly a glut of defensively responsible centers that will be available via ufa, and Sutter's a known quantity as a Canuck. He knows the guys, he's a positive presence in the room, and he plays tough minutes. I don't believe we have anyone in the system prepared to capably step in and play those minutes.

 

Re-sign him to a shorter term deal at a smaller cap hit and give him some young talent on at least one of his wings. He's not the black hole offensively some people would make him out to be. Retaining him allows us time to find or groom his replacement. 

 

Sutter also costs us nothing but money and cap space, as opposed to the cost required to bring in a guy from another organization via trade. 

If Beagle doesn't go next season that will free up money to bring in a guy like Granlund a guy the Canucks could so use as third line center