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I am getting so frustrated than my 79 yr old vaccinated mother has had her Aorta Heart Valve Replacement surgery cancelled for the 3rd time now because of Covid Patients  taking space

 

Is it wrong for me to think that once all have been given the opportunity to have a vaccine, the priorities of rooms and surgeries should go to people that have been vaccinated?

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I don't think that would change anything.  Hospitals wouldn't deny space to someone who was dangerously ill with covid.  Hospitals will continue to give priority to whoever has the most pressing concern at the time.  

 

Generally though I hear what you're saying.  It continues to be frustrating that other peoples' choices are having such a direct impact on the lives of people we love.  
It won't make a difference to the way medical care is provided though.  

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12 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

I am getting so frustrated than my 79 yr old vaccinated mother has had her Aorta Heart Valve Replacement surgery cancelled for the 3rd time now because of Covid Patients  taking space

 

Is it wrong for me to think that once all have been given the opportunity to have a vaccine, the priorities of rooms and surgeries should go to people that have been vaccinated?

sorry for what your family is dealing with. 

 

All those people that didn't bother to stay safe, went for parties, etc. should have to go explain themselves to you guys.

 

People seem to think that there's some abundance of hospital space and operating rooms, when the fact is the capacity is quite small. All those selfish pigs did was make it harder for people like your mom to get treatment. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

sorry for what your family is dealing with. 

 

All those people that didn't bother to stay safe, went for parties, etc. should have to go explain themselves to you guys.

 

People seem to think that there's some abundance of hospital space and operating rooms, when the fact is the capacity is quite small. All those selfish pigs did was make it harder for people like your mom to get treatment. 

 

Although in fairness, not everyone who is occupying a bed due to the coronavirus is there by their own indiscretions.  They may have been an innocent bystander (figuratively speaking) who did everything over and above what is required per public health orders, was super-careful and meticulous about how they do their day-to-day safely (and even minimize external contact to further reduce the risk), and still managed to catch it as a result of transmission circumstances that were beyond their control.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Although in fairness, not everyone who is occupying a bed due to the coronavirus is there by their own indiscretions.  They may have been an innocent bystander (figuratively speaking) who did everything over and above what is required per public health orders, was super-careful and meticulous about how they do their day-to-day safely (and even minimize external contact to further reduce the risk), and still managed to catch it as a result of transmission circumstances that were beyond their control.

for sure, but all those folks that didn't give a crap contributed to the mess in a big way, by infecting people who were trying to stay safe and themselves.

 

I'm not blaming everyone in the hospital at all, I'm blaming the ones that didn't even try to stay safe.

 

 

Edited by Jimmy McGill
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I can only imagine the frustrations you and your family are dealing with, having a vital procedure delayed so many times must be very disappointing.

 

However, as a healthcare professional working with critically ill patients I know there is no way we could allow what you're suggesting. It might take all of my patience and sympathy to work with people who flouted the rules or are anti-vaxxers, but it isn't my job to judge them for their decisions. We are just there to support them and hopefully help them get through their illness. People who are sick and need immediate medical attention should receive it, regardless of their choices.

 

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While I agree with the principle,  it'll never happen.   

 

Similarly people who don't smoke,  don't drink excessively, eat healthy  and exercise regularly are NOT given preferential treatment by hospitals/medical professionals unfortunately. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

While I agree with the principle,  it'll never happen.   

 

Similarly people who don't smoke,  don't drink excessively, eat healthy  and exercise regularly are NOT given preferential treatment by hospitals/medical professionals unfortunately. 

 

 

 

 

While I don't know about preferential treatment, seems like some kind of slippery slope, I do agree that karma has bitten people in the ass who were told for years not to suck down the sin sticks, I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for them right now.

 

I also agree that people who are not vaccinated after the end of this year should not be allowed into areas of essential service unless proven without shadow of a doubt they cannot be vaccinated, to hell with your "beliefs", get the shot!

Edited by canuckster19
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15 minutes ago, Amaneey said:

I can only imagine the frustrations you and your family are dealing with, having a vital procedure delayed so many times must be very disappointing.

 

However, as a healthcare professional working with critically ill patients I know there is no way we could allow what you're suggesting. It might take all of my patience and sympathy to work with people who flouted the rules or are anti-vaxxers, but it isn't my job to judge them for their decisions. We are just there to support them and hopefully help them get through their illness. People who are sick and need immediate medical attention should receive it, regardless of their choices.

 

Even if them being in a hospital can pose serious risk to the seriously ill who for whatever reason cannot be vaccinated?

 

The altruistic nature of the Hippocratic oath comes into conflict with itself IMO in this case.

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Just now, Fanuck said:

While I agree with the principle,  it'll never happen.   

 

Similarly people who don't smoke,  don't drink excessively, eat healthy  and exercise regularly are NOT given preferential treatment by hospitals/medical professionals unfortunately. 

 

 

 

 

Interestingly enough, when you end up with a chronic disease because of an unhealthy lifestyle (diabetes, COPD, emphysema..) you can apply for a disability tax credit.  So they end up paying fewer taxes to fund the healthcare system that they use disproportionately more.  
But it brings up an interesting concept.  We are really talking about addiction.  Addiction to processed foods, tobacco, alcohol.... How much choice does someone have when it comes to their addiction?  If we, as a society, feel that addiction is a disease... then we can't really punish someone for having a disease.  We know that addiction is usually associated with some sort of life trauma.  Addiction is usually the coping mechanism to repress that trauma.  And we know that trauma is effectively a type of brain damage.... so... that's where I struggle.  
On the one hand, I want people who "choose" to smoke or eat garbage food to pay more into the healthcare system.  
But on the other hand, they probably have way less control over their "decisions" than I give them credit for.  

We should probably be hitting up the tobacco and processed foods companies to chip in financially.  

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4 minutes ago, canuckster19 said:

Even if them being in a hospital can pose serious risk to the seriously ill who for whatever reason cannot be vaccinated?

 

The altruistic nature of the Hippocratic oath comes into conflict with itself IMO in this case.

To clarify are you saying that people who are hospitalized with Covid can possibly spread it to others in the hospital?

 

I think if there are appropriate precautions in place, there shouldn't be transfer of bugs/viruses etc between patients or between staff and patients. There hasn't been a single coivd outbreak on my unit. But I am fortunate to work in a place that has single patient rooms (apart from double occupancy of covid patients), we don't typically share equipment between patients and if we do, it is thoroughly cleaned. We have appropriate PPE, and have overall good nurse to patient ratios in critical care.

 

From my understanding, hospital covid outbreaks that have occurred in the lower mainland, have typically happened on medical floors. On these units you can have up to 4 patients in a room, with a single nurse struggling to provide care for up to 8 patients!!

 

Unfortunately nosocomial infections happen far too often, but they aren't limited to covid. Getting infected with other nasty bugs like CDIFF or MRSA can also prove to be fatal.

 

I think this is more of a system failure - old buildings with poor ventilation, multiple patients in a room, sharing common areas like bathrooms, overworked and not enough staff, etc.

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Considering how the population in the lower mainland has doubled over the past 30 years. The fact they have not built more hospitals to stay ahead of the curve is poor planning. 

I get there's only so much budget we have. But it's cheaper in the long run to build now than wait. What's made worse is the price of real estate makes it tougher to buy property to build hospitals. 

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2 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Considering how the population in the lower mainland has doubled over the past 30 years. The fact they have not built more hospitals to stay ahead of the curve is poor planning. 

I get there's only so much budget we have. But it's cheaper in the long run to build now than wait. What's made worse is the price of real estate makes it tougher to buy property to build hospitals. 

We need to spend the money on creating more bike lanes.:)

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17 hours ago, KristoffWixenschon said:

Interestingly enough, when you end up with a chronic disease because of an unhealthy lifestyle (diabetes, COPD, emphysema..) you can apply for a disability tax credit.  So they end up paying fewer taxes to fund the healthcare system that they use disproportionately more.  
But it brings up an interesting concept.  We are really talking about addiction.  Addiction to processed foods, tobacco, alcohol.... How much choice does someone have when it comes to their addiction?  If we, as a society, feel that addiction is a disease... then we can't really punish someone for having a disease.  We know that addiction is usually associated with some sort of life trauma.  Addiction is usually the coping mechanism to repress that trauma.  And we know that trauma is effectively a type of brain damage.... so... that's where I struggle.  
On the one hand, I want people who "choose" to smoke or eat garbage food to pay more into the healthcare system.  
But on the other hand, they probably have way less control over their "decisions" than I give them credit for.  

We should probably be hitting up the tobacco and processed foods companies to chip in financially.  

A side anecdote, I recently was informed by my doctor (the only doctor I have ever had since birth I might add) that I can no longer be his patient because I haven't made an appointment at his office in the past 24months.  As someone who has never smoked, doesn't abuse alcohol, eats relatively healthy, exercises regularly and doesn't abuse drugs I take pride in the fact I'm not a burden to the medical profession; however, recently I suffered an injury (right before the COVID lockdown) playing rec hockey and I needed an x-ray so I called my doctor and they told me I was dropped for not having made an appointment recently.  I gave the receptionist a 'piece of my mind' so to speak and demanded that I speak to the doctor himself so he could explain this to me personally - she tried to redirect me and I wasn't having it - I told her that if I didn't speak to the doctor directly I would be coming down the the office in person, appointment or not, to clarify this with them and she put me on hold - 3 minutes later she gave me an appointment.  As I mentioned, I've known this doctor for a LONG time and I suspected it was the receptionist following some kind of 'blanket policy' but it still means that myself and countless others like myself who are not a 'burden' to the system are being punished for doing the right things in life. 

 

We can speak of 'addictions' all we want, this example is unacceptable in my view. 

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28 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

A side anecdote, I recently was informed by my doctor (the only doctor I have ever had since birth I might add) that I can no longer be his patient because I haven't made an appointment at his office in the past 24months.  As someone who has never smoked, doesn't abuse alcohol, eats relatively healthy, exercises regularly and doesn't abuse drugs I take pride in the fact I'm not a burden to the medical profession; however, recently I suffered an injury (right before the COVID lockdown) playing rec hockey and I needed an x-ray so I called my doctor and they told me I was dropped for not having made an appointment recently.  I gave the receptionist a 'piece of my mind' so to speak and demanded that I speak to the doctor himself so he could explain this to me personally - she tried to redirect me and I wasn't having it - I told her that if I didn't speak to the doctor directly I would be coming down the the office in person, appointment or not, to clarify this with them and she put me on hold - 3 minutes later she gave me an appointment.  As I mentioned, I've known this doctor for a LONG time and I suspected it was the receptionist following some kind of 'blanket policy' but it still means that myself and countless others like myself who are not a 'burden' to the system are being punished for doing the right things in life. 

 

We can speak of 'addictions' all we want, this example is unacceptable in my view. 

And some how it became your fault; "Oh you didn't know about that rule? Too bad, sucks to be you".

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26 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

A side anecdote, I recently was informed by my doctor (the only doctor I have ever had since birth I might add) that I can no longer be his patient because I haven't made an appointment at his office in the past 24months.  As someone who has never smoked, doesn't abuse alcohol, eats relatively healthy, exercises regularly and doesn't abuse drugs I take pride in the fact I'm not a burden to the medical profession; however, recently I suffered an injury (right before the COVID lockdown) playing rec hockey and I needed an x-ray so I called my doctor and they told me I was dropped for not having made an appointment recently.  I gave the receptionist a 'piece of my mind' so to speak and demanded that I speak to the doctor himself so he could explain this to me personally - she tried to redirect me and I wasn't having it - I told her that if I didn't speak to the doctor directly I would be coming down the the office in person, appointment or not, to clarify this with them and she put me on hold - 3 minutes later she gave me an appointment.  As I mentioned, I've known this doctor for a LONG time and I suspected it was the receptionist following some kind of 'blanket policy' but it still means that myself and countless others like myself who are not a 'burden' to the system are being punished for doing the right things in life. 

 

We can speak of 'addictions' all we want, this example is unacceptable in my view. 

Yeah that's pretty ridiculous and frustrating.  I've heard similar stories where the office did not contact patients about this rule to explain what was going to happen, but just started firing patients.  

I think it's obvious that doctors should have to at least attempt to make contact to explain this rule before they start removing people from their panel.  

 

But it definitely wasn't the receptionist's decision.  She is taking direction directly from your doctor.  
Sounds like she probably had to go track down your doctor to say that some scary dude was going to come and break covid protocols to yell at her so the doctor changed his mind about dropping you to prevent the receptionist from having to deal with an angry man conflict.  

 

Squeaky wheel.  There are definitely a lot of people who no longer have family doctors because they do not feel comfortable being assertive. 

 

I still feel bad for that receptionist though

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10 minutes ago, KristoffWixenschon said:

Yeah that's pretty ridiculous and frustrating.  I've heard similar stories where the office did not contact patients about this rule to explain what was going to happen, but just started firing patients.  

I think it's obvious that doctors should have to at least attempt to make contact to explain this rule before they start removing people from their panel.  

 

But it definitely wasn't the receptionist's decision.  She is taking direction directly from your doctor.  
Sounds like she probably had to go track down your doctor to say that some scary dude was going to come and break covid protocols to yell at her so the doctor changed his mind about dropping you to prevent the receptionist from having to deal with an angry man conflict.  

 

Squeaky wheel.  There are definitely a lot of people who no longer have family doctors because they do not feel comfortable being assertive. 

 

I still feel bad for that receptionist though

What makes me even more furious about this trend in our medical system is that I believe it is motivated by greed - although admittedly, I don't know for certain. 

As a patient who doesn't make many appointments - they can't bill for not seeing me.  The doctor would rather have a patient who they see regularly who they can bill, bill, and bill some more; therefore, people who are essentially opposites of myself (smokers, bad eaters, alcohol abusers, drug abusers, obese people, non-exercisers, ect....) are all much, much better patients for them so to speak while people like me do their part and them some, pay tax like everyone, and get 'effed by the system'. 

 

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44 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

What makes me even more furious about this trend in our medical system is that I believe it is motivated by greed - although admittedly, I don't know for certain. 

As a patient who doesn't make many appointments - they can't bill for not seeing me.  The doctor would rather have a patient who they see regularly who they can bill, bill, and bill some more; therefore, people who are essentially opposites of myself (smokers, bad eaters, alcohol abusers, drug abusers, obese people, non-exercisers, ect....) are all much, much better patients for them so to speak while people like me do their part and them some, pay tax like everyone, and get 'effed by the system'. 

 

I don't think it's motivated by greed.  I think it's motivated by burn-out.  They have waaaay too many people to see.  

Canadian physicians get paid on a "fee for service" basis.  This means that your visit gets billed for the exact same amount of money as anyone else's visit.  You come in, your medical issue is pretty straight forward, you have a sound enough mind to follow the doctor's advice, you are in and out in 10 minutes.  Now for example, somebody else comes in after you.... and they have a long history of trauma, they inject drugs, they have chronic pain (probably caused by their trauma and anxiety), they want to get off of heroin but they want to refill their prescriptions for morphine, they are dealing with an infection from injection sites that just won't heal.... their visit takes an hour.  The doctor gets paid the same amount for that visit.  The doctor puts in waaaay more time and energy to deal with their problem than they did with your problem, but they get compensated the same amount.  

So in a way, physicians probably prefer a panel full of people that are a little more like you (if you came in more often haha).  They would obviously prefer to see people with non-complex problems, who can follow their medical advice.  If everyone they saw were like you, they could run through 55 patients per day and make a ton of money.  

The problem is, doctors are usually really good people, so they continue to take on these complex patients.  They recognize that these people desperately need medical care.  Then their patient panels explode up to 1500-2000 patients and they get overwhelmed.  That is 1500-2000 people who might make an appointment in clinic, but also might.... get pregnant, get in a car accident, have a heart attack, move into long term care.... The doctor will still have to see them for those reasons as well.  It becomes a lot.  

Anyway, long story short, I totally understand why they need to trim off patients from their panels.  But I agree I think the way that some physicians have been going about it is pretty bad.  

Really we just need more doctors in Canada.  Our process to import doctors is needlessly long and there are so many expensive hoops to jump through.  We would attract way more physicians from overseas if we cleaned up that process.  And we should probably pay them more so that they stop moving to the US... And I guess we should actually have more medical programs with residency training in Canada.... the number of residencies in Canada is shockingly low... most of our grads do residency in the US and then stay there..... lots of systems issues.

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I read somewhere that 75-80% of hospitalized Covid patients were really heavy (overweight a lot, like obese)  

Do we turn those people away from treatment, because they aren't vaccinated, and they are grossly overweight?  Of course we don't.  Of course we don't.  Our medical system is for everyone, regardless of their personal circumstances.  Right now we have extra need for Covid beds.  That's our system.  and really it's pretty darned good.  

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