Israelis and Hamas Conflict/ Netanyahu Out as PM - Coalition Led by Bennett Take Over

[Kragar]

5 hours ago, UKNuck96 said:

Thing is when the plo gave up arms they did exactly this, didn’t turn out that well for them 

Is it working out well for them any other times?

 

If they don't stop with the terrorist activity, they will not win in the court of public opinion.  Right or wrong, Israel gets more of a pass due to the genocide Jews have experienced and also due to what the country has suffered since its inception.

 

That's not to say Palestinians havent suffered, nor does it say they suffered less than Israelis.  But by voting for Hamas, they choose terrorism and genocide, and at least for now, the world has had enough of genocide towards Jews.  As long as they continue to make that choice, they will suffer.

[taxi]

6 hours ago, UKNuck96 said:

Thing is when the plo gave up arms they did exactly this, didn’t turn out that well for them 

Hamas launching rockets into Israel is the main factor driving Israeli settlement into the West Bank. The threat of violence keeps right wing governments in power in Israel, which are always allied with harsh pro-settlement parties. Many Israelis also look at what's happening in Gaza and see something that they can't have repeated closer to their major cities, like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and decide they need a buffer zone...which is the settlements. 

[taxi]

On 5/28/2021 at 7:56 PM, Ilunga said:

Here is one 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Initiative_(2003)

 

 

However as always due to the extremists on both sides this plan like all the others came to nothing.

 

None of this justifies Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

They are as I have stated many times practicing a slow form of ethnic cleansing.

 

This reminds me of the world's reaction to Germany in relation to the Jews in the late 30's- 40's.

The pope signed the Reichskonkordat in 1933.

The whole world knew what was going on after Kristallnacht.

No one gave a rat's arse about the Jews.

Just like no one really gives a rat's arse about the Palestinians now.

 

This isn't correct. The Geneva Initiative was not a peace offer but a general plan. It was drafted by many parties, including Israelis and Palestinians but was not an offer from either side. It led to the Taba Summit and the "Napkin offer", both were offers by Israel of around 95% of the West Bank, and maybe more land swaps after. 

 

It's also quite offensive to continually bring up the holocaust as some kind of analogy to this. Did the Israelis kill 6 million Palestinians in gas chambers? No. Maybe they aren't the same thing.

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Kragar said:

We're both wrong.  You only said it once, so it wasn't repeatedly.  I guess I just read it enough times.

 

However, you do continue to make irrelevant, tangential comments and put words in my mouth.  Please stop.

 

If you had been promised your land, and the next day all your neighbors try to take it away, how are you going to treat your neighbors in the future, especially the ones that still want to kill you and take your land?

 

If the Palestinians get rid of Hamas, give up on Right of Return, and give up on River to the Sea, and stop instigating anything, then the rest of the world will join in the disgust of Israel, assuming they continue their distasteful actions. 

 

Since Palestinians choose Hamas to lead them, and Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Israel will continue to get the benefit of the doubt for most/any illegal action they take.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Palestinians need to start taking the high road.

 

I really am done now.  And the Habs made us both smile.  So, at least we have that.

You haven't answered my question.

Where would you choose to live and why ?

 

All I hear from you us Hamas.

I like nearly everyone else has condemned them.

 

The only people who have been taking land away from people they promised that land to is the Isreali's.

They have and continue to do so 

I can only conclude that you do not have any empathy for the suffering of others,because any person who is Cognizant of the situation in Gaza and who does feel empathy for others would condemn Israel's actions this century.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, taxi said:

This isn't correct. The Geneva Initiative was not a peace offer but a general plan. It was drafted by many parties, including Israelis and Palestinians but was not an offer from either side. It led to the Taba Summit and the "Napkin offer", both were offers by Israel of around 95% of the West Bank, and maybe more land swaps after. 

 

It's also quite offensive to continually bring up the holocaust as some kind of analogy to this. Did the Israelis kill 6 million Palestinians in gas chambers? No. Maybe they aren't the same thing.

Plan,offer you are splitting words to justify ethnic cleansing.

 

I have not "continually" brought up the holocaust.

I mentioned reading Leon Uris's book Mila 18 and the impact it had on me,how it shocked me that humans could treat each other that way and how the conditions described in the Warsaw ghetto remind me of what I have seen and read about Gaza.

I was empathizing with the Jewish people suffering in that ghetto

If you don't like that too bad.

 

I find your attitude towards the suffering of the Palestinians offensive.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Ilunga

[Kragar]

39 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

You haven't answered my question.

Where would you choose to live and why ?

 

All I hear from you us Hamas.

I like nearly everyone else has condemned them.

 

The only people who have been taking land away from people they promised that land to is the Isreali's.

They have and continue to do so 

I can only conclude that you do not have any empathy for the suffering of others,because any person who is Cognizant of the situation in Gaza and who does feel empathy for others would condemn Israel's actions this century.

I don't want to live in either place.  Makes no difference to our discussion what I would prefer.

 

It is difficult to maintain empathy for those who choose terrorism and genocide, which is why I keep hammering on Hamas.  You call them out as well, but you seem to overlook that Palestinians choose Hamas to lead them.  As I have said repeatedly, if they stop doing that, they will get broader global support.  Is that so difficult to grasp?

[Ilunga]

12 minutes ago, Kragar said:

I don't want to live in either place.  Makes no difference to our discussion what I would prefer.

 

It is difficult to maintain empathy for those who choose terrorism and genocide, which is why I keep hammering on Hamas.  You call them out as well, but you seem to overlook that Palestinians choose Hamas to lead them.  As I have said repeatedly, if they stop doing that, they will get broader global support.  Is that so difficult to grasp?

Here you go from an Israeli news source.

While a little bit dated 2014 it still is very pertinent to the current situation.

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-why-do-palestinians-in-gaza-support-hamas-1.5258108

 

Educate yourself to what is actually happening in Gaza.

 

As the article states 53 percent of the population of Gaza was under 18 years old at that time and did not vote in the last Palestinian election which was in 2006.

 

Both you and Taxi keep bring up events that happened last century to justify the current suffering of people right now.

That's is what upsets me,not the reasons behind the suffering but the suffering itself.

 

I guarantee that if you had the misfortune to be born in Gaza in the last 20 years,you would not be defending Israel's actions.

[Warhippy]

On 5/31/2021 at 11:46 AM, Kragar said:

And, in spite of all that, you still support the existence of Israel?

 

The UN had to appropriate land from somewhere to set up Israel.  Also, doesn't the prompt reaction to this establishment of Israel by Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Transjordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Palestinians stand as an affront to the UN?

 

What does their secrecy over their nuclear program have to do with anything?  Their nuclear weapons didn't prevent the Yom Kippur War.  

 

The fact remains that Palestinians have chosen to be represented by a terrorist organization, whose long-term goal is the extermination of Israel, and short-term goal is a two-state solution with Right of Return (which makes their long-term goal actually a medium-term goal).  If there is no negotiation away from Right of Return, there is no viable two-state solution.  Period.

Nations are built on blood.  At what point did you assume I did NOT support the right of Israel to exist?

 

The UN could have easily set up shop in western Mexico but instead CHOSE possibly the single most damning area in the world based on eons old fairy tales.  That was on them because ti was stupid to assume that plunking a people in the middle of an area already hotly contested with religious issues

 

Their having nukes and knowing that they'd be used keeps EVERY other nation at bay.  The US has hundreds of bases in the ME or something.  Plus a permanent battle fleet in the gulf.  Israel has an armed forces only 2nd to the US in capabilities.  NO nation is really going to push Israel which is why you see Israel attacking other nations with no hesitation or worry

 

I could easily say that Palestinians have a right to return to their lands as much as Israel had a right to return back in the 40s.  But I could also say without Israel moving BACK to the borders established post 6 day war than again, they ARE the aggressor and TEHY are the main reason there can be no 2 state soluton

 

Savvy?

[Kragar]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

Here you go from an Israeli news source.

While a little bit dated 2014 it still is very pertinent to the current situation.

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-why-do-palestinians-in-gaza-support-hamas-1.5258108

 

Educate yourself to what is actually happening in Gaza.

 

As the article states 53 percent of the population of Gaza was under 18 years old at that time and did not vote in the last Palestinian election which was in 2006.

 

Both you and Taxi keep bring up events that happened last century to justify the current suffering of people right now.

That's is what upsets me,not the reasons behind the suffering but the suffering itself.

 

I guarantee that if you had the misfortune to be born in Gaza in the last 20 years,you would not be defending Israel's actions.

Then they need another election.  15 years is absurd.  Especially when they are suffering.

 

Regardless, it doesn't change the FACT that Hamas leads the Gaza Palestinians, nor does it change the FACT that Hamas wants to eradicate Israel.

 

If you want me to have more empathy for those that weren't able to vote, I can do that, although I would be concerned about whether they would continue to support them, like their parents did 15 years ago.

 

The events of the last century, whether you go back 2 decades or 7 or anywhere in between, still matter.

[Ilunga]

53 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Nations are built on blood.  At what point did you assume I did NOT support the right of Israel to exist?

 

The UN could have easily set up shop in western Mexico but instead CHOSE possibly the single most damning area in the world based on eons old fairy tales.  That was on them because ti was stupid to assume that plunking a people in the middle of an area already hotly contested with religious issues

 

Their having nukes and knowing that they'd be used keeps EVERY other nation at bay.  The US has hundreds of bases in the ME or something.  Plus a permanent battle fleet in the gulf.  Israel has an armed forces only 2nd to the US in capabilities.  NO nation is really going to push Israel which is why you see Israel attacking other nations with no hesitation or worry

 

I could easily say that Palestinians have a right to return to their lands as much as Israel had a right to return back in the 40s.  But I could also say without Israel moving BACK to the borders established post 6 day war than again, they ARE the aggressor and TEHY are the main reason there can be no 2 state soluton

 

Savvy?

What a sad fracking comment on our species.

Nations are built on blood.

True but sad.

 

I do not expect everyone to sit around singing Kumbaya 

But I would seriously suggest this

 

  

Get the leaders in the ring punching on and see what happens.

[Ilunga]

15 minutes ago, Kragar said:

Then they need another election.  15 years is absurd.  Especially when they are suffering.

 

Regardless, it doesn't change the FACT that Hamas leads the Gaza Palestinians, nor does it change the FACT that Hamas wants to eradicate Israel.

 

If you want me to have more empathy for those that weren't able to vote, I can do that, although I would be concerned about whether they would continue to support them, like their parents did 15 years ago.

 

The events of the last century, whether you go back 2 decades or 7 or anywhere in between, still matter.

 

Blah Blah Hamas 

 

I empathise with the people who are suffering on both sides.

It is very clear to any rational,reasonable person who can think critically which side is suffering most.

 

No matter what evidence I produce you lack empathy for suffering people.

I can't make you feel  empathy,it comes from within.

Actually from the right side of the supramarginal gyrus.

It is that part of the brain and the neural connections to it.

 

 

I feel sorry for you.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Ilunga

[Kragar]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Nations are built on blood.  At what point did you assume I did NOT support the right of Israel to exist?

 

The UN could have easily set up shop in western Mexico but instead CHOSE possibly the single most damning area in the world based on eons old fairy tales.  That was on them because ti was stupid to assume that plunking a people in the middle of an area already hotly contested with religious issues

 

Their having nukes and knowing that they'd be used keeps EVERY other nation at bay.  The US has hundreds of bases in the ME or something.  Plus a permanent battle fleet in the gulf.  Israel has an armed forces only 2nd to the US in capabilities.  NO nation is really going to push Israel which is why you see Israel attacking other nations with no hesitation or worry

 

I could easily say that Palestinians have a right to return to their lands as much as Israel had a right to return back in the 40s.  But I could also say without Israel moving BACK to the borders established post 6 day war than again, they ARE the aggressor and TEHY are the main reason there can be no 2 state soluton

 

Savvy?

If every nation is built on blood, then it doesn't bear mentioning as criticism, then.  But you did.  With everything you refer to as Israel being responsible for doing, it could be easy to say they deserve what's going on.  It just seemed like you were so angry with them and their origin that having the position that Israel shouldn't exist isn't that big a stretch. But, if you support the country's existence, great.

 

Israel has been attacked many times in our lifetime, including this millennium.  That, and the Holocaust, are fresh enough in people's minds to overlook some wrongdoing.

 

Palestinians have had their own nation offered multiple times.  They have shown each time they do not want to live alongside the state of Israel.  Their leadership refuses to accept the existence of the state of Israel.  As a result, it should be pretty clear what the biggest obstacles to a peaceful solution is.  Especially if the Right of Return is a mandatory part of the negotiation.

[Kragar]

8 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Blah Blah Hamas 

 

I empathise with the people who are suffering on both sides.

It is very clear to any rational,reasonable person who can think critically which side is suffering most.

 

No matter what evidence I produce you lack empathy for suffering people.

I can't make you feel  empathy,it comes from within.

Actually from the right side of the supramarginal gyrus.

It is that part of the brain and the neural connections to it.

 

 

I feel sorry for you.

 

 

 

 

Look, I'm just explaining what the obstacles to peace are.  Having empathy for any or all who are suffering doesn't change why the suffering exists.

 

Since you seem unable to refute WHY Palestinians are not seeking peace, but instead keep changing the perspective (the latest being empathy for the Palestinians), or goalposts, what more is there to say?

 

There is no need to feel sorry for me.  I help my neighbors, and contribute my time and/or money to good causes regularly. There's no need, or call, to make a somewhat veiled attempt at my character because I refuse to see the world in the same way as you do.

 

Good day.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Kragar said:

Look, I'm just explaining what the obstacles to peace are.  Having empathy for any or all who are suffering doesn't change why the suffering exists.

 

Since you seem unable to refute WHY Palestinians are not seeking peace, but instead keep changing the perspective (the latest being empathy for the Palestinians), or goalposts, what more is there to say?

 

There is no need to feel sorry for me.  I help my neighbors, and contribute my time and/or money to good causes regularly. There's no need, or call, to make a somewhat veiled attempt at my character because I refuse to see the world in the same way as you do.

 

Good day.

Hamas received 44 percent of the vote and 54 percent were ineligible.

That tells you Hamas does not have the support of the Palestinian people.

 

I totally agree with you that Elections should be held now.

I have not shifted the goal posts.

If you cannot see that what is at the heart of my arguments,which is empathy for the ordinary palestians mostly women and children who are suffering from this conflict,that shows an inability to think critically.

I treat others the way I want to be treated and I also feel others pain,ie:walk a mile in their shoes.

I know the Israelis would not want to be treated in the way they are treating the Palestinians.

 

Shalom aleichem

Edited June 2, 2021 by Ilunga

[drummer4now]

This grudge match between Kragar and Ilunga is certainly interesting lol.. I remember having the same one with Ilunga when he was the user buddhas hand; very hard to win. 

 

We both kept saying the same things good day and this the last post on this etc... I believe it was a religious debate. 

 

How about you both just bury the hatchet and agree to disagree? 

Edited June 2, 2021 by drummer4now

[Warhippy]

12 hours ago, Kragar said:

Israel has been attacked many times in our lifetime, including this millennium.  That, and the Holocaust, are fresh enough in people's minds to overlook some wrongdoing.

 

Palestinians have had their own nation offered multiple times.  They have shown each time they do not want to live alongside the state of Israel.  Their leadership refuses to accept the existence of the state of Israel.  As a result, it should be pretty clear what the biggest obstacles to a peaceful solution is.  Especially if the Right of Return is a mandatory part of the negotiation.

I want to believe you are not really this obtuse and hypocritical but something tells me I'd be disappointed

[taxi]

15 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Plan,offer you are splitting words to justify ethnic cleansing.

 

I have not "continually" brought up the holocaust.

I mentioned reading Leon Uris's book Mila 18 and the impact it had on me,how it shocked me that humans could treat each other that way and how the conditions described in the Warsaw ghetto remind me of what I have seen and read about Gaza.

I was empathizing with the Jewish people suffering in that ghetto

If you don't like that too bad.

 

I find your attitude towards the suffering of the Palestinians offensive.

The Point was Israel didn't reject the plan. In fact, the Israeli's offer of 95+% of the West Bank plus land swaps was almost identical to the plan.

[taxi]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Hamas received 44 percent of the vote and 54 percent were ineligible.

That tells you Hamas does not have the support of the Palestinian people.

 

I totally agree with you that Elections should be held now.

I have not shifted the goal posts.

If you cannot see that what is at the heart of my arguments,which is empathy for the ordinary palestians mostly women and children who are suffering from this conflict,that shows an inability to think critically.

I treat others the way I want to be treated and I also feel others pain,ie:walk a mile in their shoes.

I know the Israelis would not want to be treated in the way they are treating the Palestinians.

 

Shalom aleichem

Your ability to distort facts is pretty incredible.

 

You are clearly trying to make the point that Hamas is just some minor off shoot, and the Palestinians have no responsibility for them being in power. This was very much a decision of the Palestinian people, particularly those of Gaza. They elected war.

[Kragar]

8 hours ago, drummer4now said:

This grudge match between Kragar and Ilunga is certainly interesting lol.. I remember having the same one with Ilunga when he was the user buddhas hand; very hard to win. 

 

We both kept saying the same things good day and this the last post on this etc... I believe it was a religious debate. 

 

How about you both just bury the hatchet and agree to disagree? 

It's gone on longer than it should, but I think we're done.  I know I am done with this thread, at least.  Nothing more to be said, near as I can tell.

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, taxi said:

The Point was Israel didn't reject the plan. In fact, the Israeli's offer of 95+% of the West Bank plus land swaps was almost identical to the plan.

The Israeli government at that time led by Ariel Sharon criticised the accord.

It then came out there was foreign funding of the plan and the Isreali government  complained about foreign interference in its internal affairs.

Actually kinda like how China now complains about foreign interference in their internal affairs when other countries complain about the CCP's treatment of the Uyghurs.

Anyway as I stated due the the extremists on both sides that plan like so many others came to nothing.