Israelis and Hamas Conflict/ Netanyahu Out as PM - Coalition Led by Bennett Take Over

[drummer4now]

5 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

The PLO tried that 

And then got annexed to bits in the West Bank.. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing would happen in Gaza if Hamas were to be dismantled. 

[taxi]

45 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

The PLO tried that 

They actually didn't. In the midst of the 2nd intifada, where there were daily suicide attacks, Israel offered 95% of the West Bank plus land swap. That offer was rejected. The suicide attacks only stopped after Israel put up a wall to keep the attackers out. 

 

Regardless of your stance on Hamas, I can tell you that their strategy is 100% not working. Israelis feel like they need a buffer, so they encourage the settlements. Hamas is a proxy army of Iran, and Israelis cannot have that close to their major cities. After Israel withdrew from Gaza, the Palestinians voted in Hamas. Now Israelis, not so surprisingly, don't want to make any further withdrawals. 

[taxi]

42 minutes ago, drummer4now said:

And then got annexed to bits in the West Bank.. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing would happen in Gaza if Hamas were to be dismantled. 

Israel withdrew from Gaza before Hamas was elected. 

[JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, taxi said:

I don't disagree. This is a conflict. The problem I see in this discussion is there are clearly people trying to turn this into a purely moral debate where only side is at fault. Also, if the Palestinians dismantled Hamas, including its military wing, into a standard political party (the way Israel did with Irgun), it would solve a lot of problems. 

Irgun wasn't dismantled, it was absorbed into the Israeli military. It also led to the formation of Lehi, another self admitted terrorist organization. Lehi was also absorbed by the Israeli military and the leadership of the Irgun and the Lehi are at the roots of the current Likud party. By your logic, Hamas would merely have to change its name to be forgiven for it's terrorist roots. 

[drummer4now]

39 minutes ago, taxi said:

Israel withdrew from Gaza before Hamas was elected. 

I was stating if Hamas was dismantled what could happen.. 

 

Gaza is prime real estate just like the West Bank. 

[taxi]

34 minutes ago, drummer4now said:

I was stating if Hamas was dismantled what could happen.. 

 

Gaza is prime real estate just like the West Bank. 

Gaza is not prime real estate:

 

1. Gaza is not part of historical Israel. Therefore, many of the settler groups are not interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah

 

2. Gaza is far more overcrowded. The West Bank has lots of empty land that settlements can be built into.

 

3. The goal of the hardliners is to wait until there is a Jewish majority in the West Bank, and then annex it. That's not possible in Gaza. 

[taxi]

48 minutes ago, JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo said:

Irgun wasn't dismantled, it was absorbed into the Israeli military. It also led to the formation of Lehi, another self admitted terrorist organization. Lehi was also absorbed by the Israeli military and the leadership of the Irgun and the Lehi are at the roots of the current Likud party. By your logic, Hamas would merely have to change its name to be forgiven for it's terrorist roots. 

Wrong.

 

By my logic. Hamas would have to stop being an independent military organization attacking civilians. If the Palestinian government outlawed independent militant groups and brought them under the control of a centralized government, there would be far fewer problems. Instead the Palestinian government encourages and funds small militant groups, who then attack Israeli civilians. 

 

Hamas consists of hundreds of thousands of members and militants. The only realistic possibility is to have many of them incorporated into a larger Palestinian military/government. Instead of the current status quo, which is just to have them make rogue attacks against Israeli civilians. 

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Bottom line in 1946 is whether Jews get their own country or not. Their sacrifice says yes. It was up to the world to mitigate the displacement of Arabs that resulted. The Palestinians have been pawns ever since. There is no reason for Israel to trust any peace treaty proposed by Arab states who have regularly attacked them and who would gladly finish the job the Germans started. It could take hundreds of years before Israel, the country, is accepted. 

Their sacrifice ?

 

The only thing Israeli's/ Jewish people have ever really sacrificed was goats at Passover.

 

What you are saying is because of centuries of persecution culminating in the holocaust they deserve a homeland of their own.

I would argue that the Jewish people like every other group of people deserve a place to call home wether these events had happened or not.

However this should not come at the expense of the others.

How would you feel if someone forced you from your home using the explanation you have provided.

Then you have to rely on,in your words,"the rest of the world to mitigate the displacement of you and yours".

I believe you would not be very happy.

 

Egypt in 1979,Jordan in 1994 and last year the UAE and Morrocco have all recognised Isreal as a nation state.

The Saudi's won't attack Israel.

The US has so messed up Iraq they are not in a position to attack anyone.

Lebanon us basically a failed state.

That leaves Iran,the Wests middle eastern Babi Yaga.

I believe the chances of Iran invading/attacking Israel are very remote and if they did the US and would use that opportunity to do what they did to Iraq to Iran.

 

I suggest you go and hang out in Gaza for a while.

If you have any compassion at all for your fellow human beings you will see things in a different light.

 

This circle of hatred will continue to perpetuate until the good will of "normal people" carries more weight than the views of the extremists,who more often than not are motivated by religious reasons.

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Your thorough posts are always good to read. I appreciate your dedication to bringing facts to the table. 

Thanks Phil.

 

History has always fascinated me.

How do you know where you are going if you don't know where you have been.

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, taxi said:

So basically your argument boils down to the Palestinians being labeled as victims, and they, therefore, can do no wrong and are not responsible for any of their own actions. There's no doubt that the Palestinians are victims, but when they do things, like elect Hamas as their leaders, it will lead to more conflict.

Their choice like ours here in the west is between a giant douche and turd sandwich,which is the choice of the lesser of 2 evils which is not much of a choice at all.

In their case a large enough percentage of the population choose the greater evil.

As I have stated Hamas uses the Palestinians for their own ends to their detriment.

Where did I say they can do no wrong ?

We all do wrong.

Those of us who do not repeat the same mistakes/do wrong are those of us who confront ourselves and admit to making mistakes.

We all have to face the consequences of our actions and inactions.

 

It is very clear to any person who can think critically which people are suffering the most injustice in this conflict and that is the Palestinians.

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, UKNuck96 said:

As opposed to Israel electing Lukid which was formed from a coalition including groups such as the Irgun 

Taxi states that Hamas is a terrorist organization,which I believe it is,but fails to address the fact that the state of Israel  was born on the back of terrorist acts by terrorist groups like the Irgun.

Leaders of those terrorist  groups then went on to prominent  positions in the military and government.

He criticises the Palestinians  for doing what the Israelis did themselves.

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, taxi said:

I don't disagree. This is a conflict. The problem I see in this discussion is there are clearly people trying to turn this into a purely moral debate where only side is at fault. Also, if the Palestinians dismantled Hamas, including its military wing, into a standard political party (the way Israel did with Irgun), it would solve a lot of problems. 

Show me one post in this discussion that states only the the Israelis are at fault in this conflict.

As for your statement that Israel  "dismantled " the irgun as I stated in the post above many of its leaders went on to hold prominent positions in the military and government including Menachim Begin who served as both a minister of defense and Prime Minister.

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo said:

Irgun wasn't dismantled, it was absorbed into the Israeli military. It also led to the formation of Lehi, another self admitted terrorist organization. Lehi was also absorbed by the Israeli military and the leadership of the Irgun and the Lehi are at the roots of the current Likud party. By your logic, Hamas would merely have to change its name to be forgiven for it's terrorist roots. 

Bang on Brother.

 

I remember making this point in a thread about  this conflict some years back.

 

[UnkNuk]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

What you are saying is because of centuries of persecution culminating in the holocaust they deserve a homeland of their own.

I would argue that the Jewish people like every other group of people deserve a place to call home wether these events had happened or not.

However this should not come at the expense of the others.

 

Where should this homeland have been?

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, UnkNuk said:

Where should this homeland have been?

That's a good question that I nor it seems anyone else has an easy answer to.

 

This religious nonsense about a god promising this land to the Israelites and Jerusalem being a holy place confuses the issue even more.

Compound this with the Arabian belief in the same god making Jerusalem and other places within Israel/Palestine " holy"are major factors why this circle of hatred continues.

 

If it was up to me I would divide the land equally,both fertile and non fertile.

 

Give access to both the Isreali's and Arabians to their supposed "holy places".

Then imprison all the extremists on both sides.

 

 

 

 

[UKNuck96]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

That's a good question that I nor it seems anyone else has an easy answer to.

 

This religious nonsense about a god promising this land to the Israelites and Jerusalem being a holy place confuses the issue even more.

Compound this with the Arabian belief in the same god making Jerusalem and other places within Israel/Palestine " holy"are major factors why this circle of hatred continues.

 

If it was up to me I would divide the land equally,both fertile and non fertile.

 

Give access to both the Isreali's and Arabians to their supposed "holy places".

Then imprison all the extremists on both sides.

 

 

 

 

The best option and conversely the least likely to happen would be to make Jerusalem an independent/international city state which neither side has. The rest of the question probably could then be worked out 

[taxi]

1 hour ago, UKNuck96 said:

The best option and conversely the least likely to happen would be to make Jerusalem an independent/international city state which neither side has. The rest of the question probably could then be worked out 

That was the original plan before the Arab nations invaded Israel. There's zero chance of either nation accepting that now.

 

A major deficiency with many of the arguments here is the they refuse to acknowledge Israel is under a very real threat. If they lose one war it's over. Israel isn't just going to give to strategic positions under the hope of having eternal peace.

[taxi]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Taxi states that Hamas is a terrorist organization,which I believe it is,but fails to address the fact that the state of Israel  was born on the back of terrorist acts by terrorist groups like the Irgun.

Leaders of those terrorist  groups then went on to prominent  positions in the military and government.

He criticises the Palestinians  for doing what the Israelis did themselves.

What's your point? Who cares how others label military groups. It doesn't matter if Hamas is a terrorist organization. What matters is that they are militarily attacking Israel. The natural response is for Israel to attack them back.

 

Hamas gets billions of dollars from Iran to attack Israel, in a war it cannot win. 

 

What do you expect to prove with this argument? Israeli citizens are just going to let Hamas kill their children, because you see some moral equivalency here?

[bishopshodan]

3 hours ago, taxi said:

Hamas gets billions of dollars from Iran to attack Israel, in a war it cannot win.

Lots of money going around.

I read the US sends billions upon billions to Israel. More in recent years.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576

 

[UKNuck96]

6 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Lots of money going around.

I read the US sends billions upon billions to Israel. More in recent years.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576

 

The USA send enough to Israel each year who then use it to buy American arms (seems like a way of using public funds to subsidise the arms industry) that would be able to pay for the costs of universal healthcare. 
 

@taxi I don’t think anyone on here is trying to say that the Palestinians are not culpable for their actions. Where as you are the only one which seems to be pushing a view that Israel only acts in defence, and this includes illegal settlements which some how are a fault of the Palestinians