Israelis and Hamas Conflict/ Netanyahu Out as PM - Coalition Led by Bennett Take Over

[UnkNuk]

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

That's a good question that I nor it seems anyone else has an easy answer to.

 

This religious nonsense about a god promising this land to the Israelites and Jerusalem being a holy place confuses the issue even more.

Compound this with the Arabian belief in the same god making Jerusalem and other places within Israel/Palestine " holy"are major factors why this circle of hatred continues.

 

If it was up to me I would divide the land equally,both fertile and non fertile.

 

Give access to both the Isreali's and Arabians to their supposed "holy places".

Then imprison all the extremists on both sides.

 

 

 

 

But wasn't that, more or less, the intent of the 1947 UN Partition Plan?  And didn't the Arabian countries and the Palestinians reject the idea from the get-go?

[Warhippy]

On 6/4/2021 at 9:25 AM, Boudrias said:

Bottom line in 1946 is whether Jews get their own country or not. Their sacrifice says yes.

HI.

 

First nations individual here.

Tell me more about the persecuted getting their own nation due to sacrifice....

[taxi]

4 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

Lots of money going around.

I read the US sends billions upon billions to Israel. More in recent years.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576

 

I never disputed this. The USA also gives billions to Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Afghanistan. It spends billions on it's allies outside of the middle east too. Look at the budget involved in maintaining it's presence in North Korea and Europe.

 

That doesn't change the fact that when Israel gets attacked by Iranian funded Hamas, the result will be a counter attack.

[taxi]

3 hours ago, UKNuck96 said:

The USA send enough to Israel each year who then use it to buy American arms (seems like a way of using public funds to subsidise the arms industry) that would be able to pay for the costs of universal healthcare. 
 

@taxi I don’t think anyone on here is trying to say that the Palestinians are not culpable for their actions. Where as you are the only one which seems to be pushing a view that Israel only acts in defence, and this includes illegal settlements which some how are a fault of the Palestinians 

I've never once said Israel is totally innocent. In fact I'vev stated that Israeli hardliners have the intent of taking over the whole West Bank. Hamas being violent does strengthen the hardliners in Israel. That's a fact. If the Palestinians put Hamas in power, then things will be worse for them. So it's not "somehow", it's choosing violence over negotiation.

[bishopshodan]

8 minutes ago, taxi said:

I never disputed this.

Never said you did.

Just pointed out that there is a lot of money pouring into this conflict. An incredible amount from the US was my example. 

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, taxi said:

What's your point? Who cares how others label military groups. It doesn't matter if Hamas is a terrorist organization. What matters is that they are militarily attacking Israel. The natural response is for Israel to attack them back.

 

Hamas gets billions of dollars from Iran to attack Israel, in a war it cannot win. 

 

What do you expect to prove with this argument? Israeli citizens are just going to let Hamas kill their children, because you see some moral equivalency here?

 

So you have given up on your Irgun argument ?

 

Israel gets a lot more money,weapons and propaganda support from the US and their diaspora abroad,than the Palestinians do from Iran

 

 

I am pointing outwhat is obvious to

anyone who can think critically,that it is the Palestinians who are suffering more.

 

Here I will post up the figures for the third time in this thread.

 

Palestinians 115,000 deaths and casualties since 2008

Israel 6000 casualties since 2008.

 

Palestinians living in conditions that human rights organisations describe as inhumane.

Even sections of the Israeli community as well as the rest of the world compare the Israeli occupation to apartheid of South Africa.

 

Each time you bring up something that is related to this conflict,it is quickly refuted with evidence/facts.

 

There is no moral equivalency to the people who lose loved ones on both sides of this conflict.

Only pain and anguish.

 

That is something I believe you will never empathise with.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, UnkNuk said:

But wasn't that, more or less, the intent of the 1947 UN Partition Plan?  And didn't the Arabian countries and the Palestinians reject the idea from the get-go?

Yes that was the plan.

 

As has been well documented in this thread and others like it over the years is the Palestinians insisted/insist on the right of return.

Both sides have extremists that keep the circle of hatred continuing.

My arguments have never been centred on who is right or wrong but who is obviously suffering the most in this conflict.

[Boudrias]

I highly doubt if the right of return ever gains any legs in Israel. It would be the end of Israel. Amazing that Arabs inside Israel have been integrated as much as they have been. Their demonstrations during the last Gaza attacks might call into question their ongoing role inside Israel. Israel doesn’t have a ‘redo’ option. Trusting Palestians with peaceful intent is a non starter. Trusting foreign countries with Israeli security is a non starter. Jews know what happens to them when they let their guard down. 

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, Boudrias said:

I highly doubt if the right of return ever gains any legs in Israel. It would be the end of Israel. Amazing that Arabs inside Israel have been integrated as much as they have been. Their demonstrations during the last Gaza attacks might call into question their ongoing role inside Israel. Israel doesn’t have a ‘redo’ option. Trusting Palestians with peaceful intent is a non starter. Trusting foreign countries with Israeli security is a non starter. Jews know what happens to them when they let their guard down. 

Hi again.

 

First Nations member here, remember me.  Tell me more about not having a redo option and trusting outsiders or letting our guards down and about how to get a nation given to us through "sacrifice"

 

Love to hear more about that

[Gnarcore]

31 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Hi again.

 

First Nations member here, remember me.  Tell me more about not having a redo option and trusting outsiders or letting our guards down and about how to get a nation given to us through "sacrifice"

 

Love to hear more about that

And please explain it to my full Cree nation mother while you're at it. 

[Warhippy]

4 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

And please explain it to my full Cree nation mother while you're at it. 

I just wonder what would happen if the first nations individuals had a magical sky daddy and MASSIVE lobbying abilities....or in fact did not have valuable exploitable land in NA....

[drummer4now]

I think this video accurately sums of the centuries of conflicts in this region.. 

 

 

[taxi]

On 6/5/2021 at 4:15 PM, Ilunga said:

 

So you have given up on your Irgun argument ?

 

Israel gets a lot more money,weapons and propaganda support from the US and their diaspora abroad,than the Palestinians do from Iran

 

 

I am pointing outwhat is obvious to

anyone who can think critically,that it is the Palestinians who are suffering more.

 

Here I will post up the figures for the third time in this thread.

 

Palestinians 115,000 deaths and casualties since 2008

Israel 6000 casualties since 2008.

 

Palestinians living in conditions that human rights organisations describe as inhumane.

Even sections of the Israeli community as well as the rest of the world compare the Israeli occupation to apartheid of South Africa.

 

Each time you bring up something that is related to this conflict,it is quickly refuted with evidence/facts.

 

There is no moral equivalency to the people who lose loved ones on both sides of this conflict.

Only pain and anguish.

 

That is something I believe you will never empathise with.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how Irgun making attacks 100 years ago has any relevance to Hamas now. Israel is not just going to roll over, and they have no choice but to respond to Hamas' attacks. And no one disputes that the Palestinians aren't suffering more. However, it's not just Israel is to blame for the Palestinian suffering. It's anyone who is encouraging Palestinians to violently attack Israel, and it's partially Palestinians themselves. 

 

I don't understand how anyone who claims to emphasize "empathy" could ever do anything but fully denounce launching rockets at civilian areas. Especially, when they know the only outcome is going to be counter attacks from Israel.

 

Also to clear up the stats, on statistics, I'm assuming this is what you are quoting:

 

Quote

The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has been tracking deaths in the conflict since 2008 and its data shows that 5,600 Palestinians died up to 2020 while 115,000 were injured. 250 Israelis died during the same period while 5,600 were injured.

I don't know why you can't just say 5,600 dead. Instead you have to state "115,000 deaths and casualties". This includes Palestinians killed by other Palestinians and also militants. A "casualty" only refers to someone killed or disabled, not all injuries. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by taxi

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, taxi said:

I don't see how Irgun making attacks 100 years ago has any relevance to Hamas now. Israel is not just going to roll over, and they have no choice but to respond to Hamas' attacks. And no one disputes that the Palestinians aren't suffering more. However, it's not just Israel is to blame for the Palestinian suffering. It's anyone who is encouraging Palestinians to violently attack Israel, and it's partially Palestinians themselves. 

 

I don't understand how anyone who claims to emphasize "empathy" could ever do anything but fully denounce launching rockets at civilian areas. Especially, when they know the only outcome is going to be counter attacks from Israel.

 

Also to clear up the stats, on statistics, I'm assuming this is what you are quoting:

 

I don't know why you can't just say 5,600 dead. Instead you have to state "115,000 deaths and casualties". This includes Palestinians killed by other Palestinians and also militants. A "casualty" only refers to someone killed or disabled, not all injuries. 

You brought up the Irgun and their terrorist-you forgot to use that word-attacks and how

 Israel "dismantled" them.

That is totally false as and has been debunked.

 

I have denounced Hamas ergo I denounce their actions.

I have also stated I am a humanist.

You obviously don't know what that means.

I suggest you research what being a humanist means and what our philosophy is.

 

Your last paragraph is more victim blaming.

 

And you have not addressed the fact that Israel is viewed as an apartheid regime re their blockade and occupation of Gaza and the west bank.

[taxi]

16 hours ago, Ilunga said:

You brought up the Irgun and their terrorist-you forgot to use that word-attacks and how

 Israel "dismantled" them.

That is totally false as and has been debunked.

 

I have denounced Hamas ergo I denounce their actions.

I have also stated I am a humanist.

You obviously don't know what that means.

I suggest you research what being a humanist means and what our philosophy is.

 

Your last paragraph is more victim blaming.

 

And you have not addressed the fact that Israel is viewed as an apartheid regime re their blockade and occupation of Gaza and the west bank.

It's not victim blaming. The Palestinians have played a role in their own circumstances. When you launch 3000 rockets into civilian areas, you deserve some blame. Your position that the Palestinians are victims and, therefore, cannot be blamed for any of the conflict is just bizarre and totally unsupported by the actual situation. The idea that you think being a "humanist" means allowing Hamas to attack as many Israeli civilians as possible is strange. You also realize that Hamas persecutes other religions, homosexuals, minorities, political dissidents, etc...And yes, once again, Hamas was voted into power. The people who voted for them deserve some of the blame for Hamas being in power. 

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, taxi said:

It's not victim blaming. The Palestinians have played a role in their own circumstances. When you launch 3000 rockets into civilian areas, you deserve some blame. Your position that the Palestinians are victims and, therefore, cannot be blamed for any of the conflict is just bizarre and totally unsupported by the actual situation. The idea that you think being a "humanist" means allowing Hamas to attack as many Israeli civilians as possible is strange. You also realize that Hamas persecutes other religions, homosexuals, minorities, political dissidents, etc...And yes, once again,

Hamas was voted into power. The people who voted for them deserve some of the blame for Hamas being in power. 

Where have I ever stated that the Palestinians do not hold some responsibility for the position they are in ?

Never.

There are always 2 sides to the one story.

 

Where did I ever state the Palestinians have the right to attack Israel ?

Never 

 

In most societies around the world the minority groups you have mention suffer some sort of persecution and I condemn all people Hamas included for those actions.

 

You obviously do not know what being a humanist means.

We abhor all violence, conflict and persecution and we believe peace can be achieved by people working together and respecting one another.

 

Again you have not addressed the fact the Israel is an apartheid state.

Do you believe there is any moral justification for the suffering of millions of people that inhabit the west bank and Gaza strip ?

 

All you ever contribute to these discussions are points that are quickly refuted.

Then you try to twist peoples words.

 

[DonLever]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-new-government-netanyahu-out-1.6064238

 

Israel's parliament on Sunday narrowly approved a new coalition government, ending the historic 12-year rule of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and sending the polarizing leader into the opposition.

Naftali Bennett, a former ally of Netanyahu turned rival, became prime minister after the 60-59 vote. Promising to try to heal a divided nation, Bennett will preside over a diverse and fragile coalition comprised of eight parties with deep ideological differences.

 

But the 71-year-old Netanyahu made clear he has no intention of exiting the political stage. "If it is destined for us to be in the opposition, we will do it with our backs straight until we topple this dangerous government and return to lead the country," he said.

The vote, capping a stormy parliamentary session, ended a two-year cycle of political paralysis in which the country held four deadlocked elections.

Those votes focused largely on Netanyahu's divisive rule and his fitness to remain in office while on trial for corruption charges.

[Boudrias]

11 hours ago, DonLever said:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-new-government-netanyahu-out-1.6064238

 

Israel's parliament on Sunday narrowly approved a new coalition government, ending the historic 12-year rule of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and sending the polarizing leader into the opposition.

Naftali Bennett, a former ally of Netanyahu turned rival, became prime minister after the 60-59 vote. Promising to try to heal a divided nation, Bennett will preside over a diverse and fragile coalition comprised of eight parties with deep ideological differences.

 

But the 71-year-old Netanyahu made clear he has no intention of exiting the political stage. "If it is destined for us to be in the opposition, we will do it with our backs straight until we topple this dangerous government and return to lead the country," he said.

The vote, capping a stormy parliamentary session, ended a two-year cycle of political paralysis in which the country held four deadlocked elections.

Those votes focused largely on Netanyahu's divisive rule and his fitness to remain in office while on trial for corruption charges.

I don’t give the new government 6 months.

[Ilunga]

The ceasefire is already over.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-16/israel-carries-out-air-strike-in-gaza/100218826

 

 

The circle of hatred continues......

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thedestroyerofworlds]

On 6/14/2021 at 8:25 AM, Boudrias said:

I don’t give the new government 6 months.

Yup.  A 60-59 vote that "ends" two years of paralysis with 4 deadlocked elections.  I think the odds are pretty good in your favour.