Israelis and Hamas Conflict/ Netanyahu Out as PM - Coalition Led by Bennett Take Over

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

would both sides in this conflict enjoying the freedoms of their own state resolve trouble in that region?  

Alf I have only one ideal that I base my life around and adhere to,treat others the way I wish to be treated.

 

If the Israelis and Palestinians did this then a 2 state solution is possible.

 

However I will not hold my breath.

If even half the world acted on my Ideal then it would be a much better place.

[Kragar]

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I could post up articles from Truthout ,Chomsky even Israeli journalist's amongst so many others.

Independent journos that have no horse in the race that state what is so blatantly obvious to any individual who can think critically.

 

Now you are trying to put you BS ideas into other people's mouths.

 

No one here in this thread thinks that Isreal does not have the right to exist as a nation/ society. As for you total BS that people are siding with Hitler just because they speak up for the rights of Palestinians,well it's obvious you feel like you have not much to offer in regards to rational,logical arguments.

I'm glad to hear that you too feel that Israel deserves to exist.  My point is, a large percentage of Palestinians do not feel that way.  As a result, what they suffer at the hands of Israelis is far less concerning to me, when they want to eradicate every single Jewish Israeli.  Those are the people that are siding with Hitler, and I refuse to stand for them as a result. 

 

From my first post here, I have acknowledged that Israel is not without fault here.  It is just clear to me that the Palestinians that support Hamas, support "From the River to the Sea", and are willing to shield themselves with children when they make war are less deserving of support and sympathy.  I just find it disappointing that this is not clear to more people.

[Kragar]

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Alf I have only one ideal that I base my life around and adhere to,treat others the way I wish to be treated.

 

If the Israelis and Palestinians did this then a 2 state solution is possible.

 

However I will not hold my breath.

If even half the world acted on my Ideal then it would be a much better place.

I meant to add in other posts, but your post here leads into the thought well: how often has a 2-state solution been proposed? It's not a new concept, of course.  IIRC, Israel is concerned about access to Holy land (although I am sure there are other sticking points), and there is a lot of debate about which land is suitable for division (is it fair to stick Palestinians with all the crappy land?). 

 

However, Arafat and other Palestinians have said that the 2-state solution is only a stepping stone to their ultimate goal.  That goal is not acceptable.

 

Your final sentence there is spot on, of course  

[taxi]

13 hours ago, Alflives said:

would both sides in this conflict enjoying the freedoms of their own state resolve trouble in that region?  

In order for that to happen, both sides would need to respect the other's right to exist. And it would have to go beyond just the Palestinians/Israelis themselves, countries like Iran would need to stop funding militant organizations to take out Israel. 

 

Realistically, this would take a monumental shift on both sides. Hamas has stated outright that they will never accept an Israeli state, and they aren't some fringe terrorist organization. Hamas won 73 out of 132 seats in the last elections, with the next closest party getting 43 seats.

 

On the Israeli side you Orthodox Jews trying to recreate a biblical Israeli state that includes most of the West Bank. More moderate Israelis see the rockets coming out of Gaza and rightfully fear what would happen if those rockets were closer to major cities. They then support the settlements as a buffer between them and the militants. 

 

The key to a two state solution is a genuine push from external powers. The US needs to take a hard stance and state that the West Bank must be independent from Israel. The Arab nations need to take a hard stance and make it clear to the Palestinians that Israel will continue to exist as a Jewish state. Countries like Iran and Turkey need to stop using Palestinians as their pawns. 

 

[UKNuck96]

44 minutes ago, taxi said:

In order for that to happen, both sides would need to respect the other's right to exist. And it would have to go beyond just the Palestinians/Israelis themselves, countries like Iran would need to stop funding militant organizations to take out Israel. 

 

Realistically, this would take a monumental shift on both sides. Hamas has stated outright that they will never accept an Israeli state, and they aren't some fringe terrorist organization. Hamas won 73 out of 132 seats in the last elections, with the next closest party getting 43 seats.

 

On the Israeli side you Orthodox Jews trying to recreate a biblical Israeli state that includes most of the West Bank. More moderate Israelis see the rockets coming out of Gaza and rightfully fear what would happen if those rockets were closer to major cities. They then support the settlements as a buffer between them and the militants. 

 

The key to a two state solution is a genuine push from external powers. The US needs to take a hard stance and state that the West Bank must be independent from Israel. The Arab nations need to take a hard stance and make it clear to the Palestinians that Israel will continue to exist as a Jewish state. Countries like Iran and Turkey need to stop using Palestinians as their pawns. 

 

The fact is that a proposed two state solution almost came to fruition but was torpedoed by the US and Israel. 
 

the issue is that Palestinians were fine with a two state solution but Israel kept pushing. When you push people into a stage of dismay and dissolution people get radicalised, you bulldoze houses, olive groves (which take generations to properly mature) and farms just to stick up a gated compound and turn people out destitute from family land (in the West Bank) when you blockade Gaza and turn it into a large favalla you end up with people like Hamas. 
 

its easy to say Palestinians need to stop being violent when they have been subjugated into that position 

[taxi]

20 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

The fact is that a proposed two state solution almost came to fruition but was torpedoed by the US and Israel. 
 

the issue is that Palestinians were fine with a two state solution but Israel kept pushing. When you push people into a stage of dismay and dissolution people get radicalised, you bulldoze houses, olive groves (which take generations to properly mature) and farms just to stick up a gated compound and turn people out destitute from family land (in the West Bank) when you blockade Gaza and turn it into a large favalla you end up with people like Hamas. 
 

its easy to say Palestinians need to stop being violent when they have been subjugated into that position 

This isn't remotely true. The Palestinians, as a condition, wanted a right of return for all Palestinians, who had been there for two years or more and their descendants, into Israel proper. That would have given an Arab majority in Israel, so no Jewish state.

 

The closest we've ever gotten to an agreement was at the Taba Summit:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit

 

The Palestinians would have been guaranteed all of the Gaza Strip, a capital in East Jerusalem, 94% of the West Bank, and land to compensate them for that 6% of the West Bank. There are disagreements about who was at fault for not reaching a final agreement, but Arafat refused to give up the right of return.

 

The Palestinians and Arabs have never once offered Israel a proposal that allows them to exist under a non-Arab majority. If you really want to go back to basics, the two state solution was supposed to exist in 1948, but the Arab force invaded Israel, ending it.

Edited May 28, 2021 by taxi

[UKNuck96]

45 minutes ago, taxi said:

This isn't remotely true. The Palestinians, as a condition, wanted a right of return for all Palestinians, who had been there for two years or more and their descendants, into Israel proper. That would have given an Arab majority in Israel, so no Jewish state.

 

The closest we've ever gotten to an agreement was at the Taba Summit:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit

 

The Palestinians would have been guaranteed all of the Gaza Strip, a capital in East Jerusalem, 94% of the West Bank, and land to compensate them for that 6% of the West Bank. There are disagreements about who was at fault for not reaching a final agreement, but Arafat refused to give up the right of return.

 

The Palestinians and Arabs have never once offered Israel a proposal that allows them to exist under a non-Arab majority. If you really want to go back to basics, the two state solution was supposed to exist in 1948, but the Arab force invaded Israel, ending it.

There have been other details and the pre1967 borders were proposed

[taxi]

10 minutes ago, UKNuck96 said:

There have been other details and the pre1967 borders were proposed

The last Palestinian offer was total pre-1967 borders and full right of return for all Palestinians. That would have not allowed a Jewish state of any kind. It totally ignores the reality of what's happened for the last 200 years as well. For example:

 

1. Jews were forcibly expelled from the West Bank and most Muslim/Arab countries. No acknowlegement of or compensation for that. Most Israeli Jews are descended from these refugees.

2. Israel won the wars... where the Arabs were trying to destroy them. You don't just get everything back when you lose a war.

3. Hamas and various Palestinian groups continue to want to destroy Israel.

 

So if Israel accepts that proposal, they are putting themselves into a position where they will cease to exist. That's not a peace offering, that's a threat. 

 

I would like to see the details of all these offers that Israel turned down for a two state solution.

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Kragar said:

I'm glad to hear that you too feel that Israel deserves to exist.  My point is, a large percentage of Palestinians do not feel that way.  As a result, what they suffer at the hands of Israelis is far less concerning to me, when they want to eradicate every single Jewish Israeli.  Those are the people that are siding with Hitler, and I refuse to stand for them as a result. 

 

From my first post here, I have acknowledged that Israel is not without fault here.  It is just clear to me that the Palestinians that support Hamas, support "From the River to the Sea", and are willing to shield themselves with children when they make war are less deserving of support and sympathy.  I just find it disappointing that this is not clear to more people.

 

 

The majority of the Palestinians who are suffering are innocent women and children,as in most conflicts.

They live in conditions that are described as inhumane.

Whether you want to accept facts or not what Israel is doing is a form of ethnic cleansing.

Unfortunately this is what our species does,it repeats patterns of behaviour that they have witnessed or endured.

 

I wonder how you would feel if you were one of the 850,000 Palestinians forced from their homes in 1948 ?

If you were a victim of one of the many terrorist attacks by the terrorist group the Irgun ? 

Back on page 4 of this thread UKNuck96 posted the human death and casualty toll of this conflict since 2008 

There have been 5590 Palestinians killed and 252 Israelis 

As for casualties there have been roughly 110,000 Palestinian casualties and over 5000 Israeli casualties.

 

So please stop victim blaming and trying to push the BS line that Israel is the victim in this conflict.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Kragar said:

I meant to add in other posts, but your post here leads into the thought well: how often has a 2-state solution been proposed? It's not a new concept, of course.  IIRC, Israel is concerned about access to Holy land (although I am sure there are other sticking points), and there is a lot of debate about which land is suitable for division (is it fair to stick Palestinians with all the crappy land?). 

 

However, Arafat and other Palestinians have said that the 2-state solution is only a stepping stone to their ultimate goal.  That goal is not acceptable.

 

Your final sentence there is spot on, of course  

A 2 state solution has always been the stated policy of the "real major players" in this conflict.

 

I believe we should destroy these Supposed "holy places" as that would end much of the reason for this conflict.

Usually I hold historical objects,structures and buildings in high regard however these places have caused centuries of pain and conflict for millions of people.

Get rid of them divide the land equally and build some new places of "worship".

 

There are extremists on both sides however it is the Isreali's who keep forcing Palestinians from their homes and stealing their land.

 

I highly recommend that you watch the movie Paradise Now.

It is not just a movie that tries to validate the extremist view of the Palestinian side.

It delves into the motivations of those who want both a peaceful solution and those who feel impelled to use violent means.

It also gives one an idea of the conditions in which the Palestinians live.

 

I remember when I first read Mila 18 by Leon Uris.

It is a fictional account of the uprising in the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw.

I was 13 and it opened my eyes to the horrors that humans inflict upon each other.

I found it hard to believe humans could treat each other in that manner.

This conflict reminds me of that conflict though in saying that the Nazis were far more open about what they were doing.

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, taxi said:

 

 

I would like to see the details of all these offers that Israel turned down for a two state solution.

Here is one 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Initiative_(2003)

 

 

However as always due to the extremists on both sides this plan like all the others came to nothing.

 

None of this justifies Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

They are as I have stated many times practicing a slow form of ethnic cleansing.

 

This reminds me of the world's reaction to Germany in relation to the Jews in the late 30's- 40's.

The pope signed the Reichskonkordat in 1933.

The whole world knew what was going on after Kristallnacht.

No one gave a rat's arse about the Jews.

Just like no one really gives a rat's arse about the Palestinians now.

 

[Warhippy]

On 5/27/2021 at 6:19 PM, Kragar said:

Which justifies rocket attacks on civilian populations.

 

Got it.

So lemme get this straight.  Israel MAGICALLY knows the locations of every surrounding nations weapons caches, movements of convoys and sensitive individuals and can commit to strikes upon them.  Has a defence system that can literally take out incoming rockets.  But somehow SOMEWAY cannot take out a small group of militants who are incredibly visible literally short miles away from their military forces.

 

Does this make any sense to you at all?

 

You can say ":this doesn't excuse israel" but the truth is you're making excuses for them.

 

I never said there was justification for what was happening regarding rocket attacks, I am simply pointing out that over the last decade and more every single attack has been on the backs of expansion or aggression on the part of the Israeli annexation of Palestinian territories and this is clearly marked yet utterly ignored by people.

 

If America came over the peace arch crossing, and Americans kicked you out of your home and you tried to fight back but were then beaten down and imprisoned by the American army who claimed they were just defending Americans and American territory, what the ever loving hell would you do?

[4petesake]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

So lemme get this straight.  Israel MAGICALLY knows the locations of every surrounding nations weapons caches, movements of convoys and sensitive individuals and can commit to strikes upon them.  Has a defence system that can literally take out incoming rockets.  But somehow SOMEWAY cannot take out a small group of militants who are incredibly visible literally short miles away from their military forces.

 

Does this make any sense to you at all?

 

You can say ":this doesn't excuse israel" but the truth is you're making excuses for them.

 

I never said there was justification for what was happening regarding rocket attacks, I am simply pointing out that over the last decade and more every single attack has been on the backs of expansion or aggression on the part of the Israeli annexation of Palestinian territories and this is clearly marked yet utterly ignored by people.

 

If America came over the peace arch crossing, and Americans kicked you out of your home and you tried to fight back but were then beaten down and imprisoned by the American army who claimed they were just defending Americans and American territory, what the ever loving hell would you do?

I’d try and find me some rockets.

[Warhippy]

15 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

I’d try and find me some rockets.

That's just it.  

 

My biggest issue with all of this is that there's zero excuses for what Israel is doign because there's ZERO hiding it.  They are doing a creeping annexation of palestinian territory and nothing anyone can say will excuse it.  This most recent conflict was based on them essentially attacking people and jailing them at a mosque.  The ultra hasidic orthodoxy has been eyeing that specific mosque for years wanting to build or rebuild a biblical temple and the IDF moved in under the guise of "threats made against people"

 

I have no desire to see anything happen to the ISraeli people but cannot stand back and be silent or accepting of what they are doing, have done and continue to do to the Palestinian people no matter the excuses made by others.

 

Look at the gd wall around palestine, it extends almost 70 miles offshore.  They refuse to allow aid, they restrict what is allowed and by and large unless otherwise marked Palestinians are living in and working in ghetto of Israeli making protected by the American Veto

 

There can be no solution at this point because the extremists at both ends refuse to allow it to happen.  But I cannot sit back and be ignorant as to why Palestinians would be up in arms after generations of watching this happen, because if I was a palestinian I also would be throwing rocks; protesting and would be beyond angry with the state of things.

 

One thing though, and it's important to know.  Last week Israel targeted the media building and comm centres of the media, this week no less than 17 journalists were arrested in the area covering the protests.  

 

Why?

 

Why this sudden blitz on silencing media in the area?

Edited May 29, 2021 by Warhippy

[Kragar]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

So lemme get this straight.  Israel MAGICALLY knows the locations of every surrounding nations weapons caches, movements of convoys and sensitive individuals and can commit to strikes upon them.  Has a defence system that can literally take out incoming rockets.  But somehow SOMEWAY cannot take out a small group of militants who are incredibly visible literally short miles away from their military forces.

 

Does this make any sense to you at all?

 

You can say ":this doesn't excuse israel" but the truth is you're making excuses for them.

 

I never said there was justification for what was happening regarding rocket attacks, I am simply pointing out that over the last decade and more every single attack has been on the backs of expansion or aggression on the part of the Israeli annexation of Palestinian territories and this is clearly marked yet utterly ignored by people.

 

If America came over the peace arch crossing, and Americans kicked you out of your home and you tried to fight back but were then beaten down and imprisoned by the American army who claimed they were just defending Americans and American territory, what the ever loving hell would you do?

You forget where I live .  But, in your example, I don't think I would start shooting rockets into population centers as opposed to military targets.  Or encourage women and teenagers to put on some special clothes and have them go looking for a blast of a time in Israel.  IMO, the biggest problem the Palestinians have is their refusal to take the high road.  They and their media outlets work hard to gain public support, and that flows into Western MSM.  Fortunately, too many people see through the nonsensical use of human shields and terrorist tactics, and are able to see a broader picture. When a majority of people in a neighboring state support an organization whose charter demands the utter destruction of that homeland, they've got a long way to climb to get to that high road.

 

Yes, they have the Iron Dome.  Which is also not infallible.  I disagree that they, magically or otherwise, know all the locations and movements, and I strongly disagree about the "small group" of militants.

 

Don't forget, Israel, too, is looking to defend their homeland.  They were there before the Muslims were, and have been persecuted by nearly everyone through history.  You claim every single attack in the last decade was in response to Israeli expansion or aggressive action.  I'll raise that up a notch, and point out that nearly every single military attack since 1948 was not started by Israel.  How does full-scale war not outweigh Israel's actions in the last decade?  How many times can Israel's neighbors try to conquer Israel before you can acknowledge "enough".

 

I'll tag @Ilunga here as well, as I am getting tired of the discussion, and perhaps I can answer you both at the same time.

 

I chuckled at the use of the phrase ethnic cleaning, applied to Israelis, but that was because I hadn't realized the phrase is also used in a non-violent sense.  However, I cannot overlook what Hamas wants to do, and what a large number of Middle East Muslims want or have wanted for decades/centuries: the most extreme form of ethnic cleansing.  Between those two choices, it is easy for me on whom to support.  And, the fact remains, despite these claims of ethnic cleansing, that the Arab population is outpacing the Jewish population in Israel.  I recognize Israel's efforts towards pushing Palestinians out of Israel.  In some ways, I don't blame them. They have established a democracy in their country. The increased proportion of Arabs threatens that democracy.  Add on the regular demands for Right of Return for displaced Palestinians as part of two-state system agreements, and the Jewish state is greatly threatened.

 

Ilunga and I have both stated we support the existence of Israel.  Hip, I'm guessing you do too, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.  A majority of Palestinians - or if not, then at the least a majority in Gaza - do not agree with us.  If that baseline is not recognized, then there will always be a problem, and as far as I am concerned, that problem lies with those who are unwilling to accept Israel's existence.

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Kragar said:

You forget where I live .  But, in your example, I don't think I would start shooting rockets into population centers as opposed to military targets.  Or encourage women and teenagers to put on some special clothes and have them go looking for a blast of a time in Israel.  IMO, the biggest problem the Palestinians have is their refusal to take the high road.  They and their media outlets work hard to gain public support, and that flows into Western MSM.  Fortunately, too many people see through the nonsensical use of human shields and terrorist tactics, and are able to see a broader picture. When a majority of people in a neighboring state support an organization whose charter demands the utter destruction of that homeland, they've got a long way to climb to get to that high road.

 

Yes, they have the Iron Dome.  Which is also not infallible.  I disagree that they, magically or otherwise, know all the locations and movements, and I strongly disagree about the "small group" of militants.

 

Don't forget, Israel, too, is looking to defend their homeland.  They were there before the Muslims were, and have been persecuted by nearly everyone through history.  You claim every single attack in the last decade was in response to Israeli expansion or aggressive action.  I'll raise that up a notch, and point out that nearly every single military attack since 1948 was not started by Israel.  How does full-scale war not outweigh Israel's actions in the last decade?  How many times can Israel's neighbors try to conquer Israel before you can acknowledge "enough".

 

I'll tag @Ilunga here as well, as I am getting tired of the discussion, and perhaps I can answer you both at the same time.

 

I chuckled at the use of the phrase ethnic cleaning, applied to Israelis, but that was because I hadn't realized the phrase is also used in a non-violent sense.  However, I cannot overlook what Hamas wants to do, and what a large number of Middle East Muslims want or have wanted for decades/centuries: the most extreme form of ethnic cleansing.  Between those two choices, it is easy for me on whom to support.  And, the fact remains, despite these claims of ethnic cleansing, that the Arab population is outpacing the Jewish population in Israel.  I recognize Israel's efforts towards pushing Palestinians out of Israel.  In some ways, I don't blame them. They have established a democracy in their country. The increased proportion of Arabs threatens that democracy.  Add on the regular demands for Right of Return for displaced Palestinians as part of two-state system agreements, and the Jewish state is greatly threatened.

 

Ilunga and I have both stated we support the existence of Israel.  Hip, I'm guessing you do too, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.  A majority of Palestinians - or if not, then at the least a majority in Gaza - do not agree with us.  If that baseline is not recognized, then there will always be a problem, and as far as I am concerned, that problem lies with those who are unwilling to accept Israel's existence.

I didnt forget where you live because I don't know where you live.

 

Israels homeland is within the established borders, NOT within the borders they keep annexing period.  Our property lines are drawn where they are but if you keep moving your fence on to my property every year I will knock your teeth in with a bat at some point if it is within my ability and the cops refuse to help even though the courts have told you that you are wrong and need to stop

 

You say you don't blame Israel for pushing palestine from outside of their borders?  But the borders are drawn and established and were long ago.  Israeli land is Israeli land but anything they;ve taken SINCE is annexed Palestinian land and you cannot argue otherwise.  You are claiming that an increase in the numbers of arab citizens threatens democracy as well which is essentially saying you support a recognized "higher class" of citizen within established borders.  And boy oh boy have we heard THAT before

 

Bottom line is that Israel continues to annex palestinian land.  they continue to blockade palestine and they continue to ignore the UN, world courts and governing bodies while allowing the IDF to dfend illegal settlements outside of Israeli borders.

 

Will you argue the bolded?

 

As for your sad attempt at baiting me, no.  I do NOT disagree with Israels existence and suggesting or steering the conversation towards that as an absolute is rather sad so don't be so childish please as to think anyone would truly fall for that while ignoring that the majority of Israelis support the continued creeping annexation of Palestinian lands which...in short order would result in *gas* the loss of or erasing of Palestine and the Palestinian people

Edited May 29, 2021 by Warhippy

[Kragar]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

I didnt forget where you live because I don't know where you live.

 

Israels homeland is within the established borders, NOT within the borders they keep annexing period.  Our property lines are drawn where they are but if you keep moving your fence on to my property every year I will knock your teeth in with a bat at some point if it is within my ability and the cops refuse to help even though the courts have told you that you are wrong and need to stop

 

You say you don't blame Israel for pushing palestine from outside of their borders?  But the borders are drawn and established and were long ago.  Israeli land is Israeli land but anything they;ve taken SINCE is annexed Palestinian land and you cannot argue otherwise.  You are claiming that an increase in the numbers of arab citizens threatens democracy as well which is essentially saying you support a recognized "higher class" of citizen within established borders.  And boy oh boy have we heard THAT before

 

Bottom line is that Israel continues to annex palestinian land.  they continue to blockade palestine and they continue to ignore the UN, world courts and governing bodies while allowing the IDF to dfend illegal settlements outside of Israeli borders.

 

Will you argue the bolded?

 

As for your sad attempt at baiting me, no.  I do NOT disagree with Israels existence and suggesting or steering the conversation towards that as an absolute is rather sad so don't be so childish please as to think anyone would truly fall for that while ignoring that the majority of Israelis support the continued creeping annexation of Palestinian lands which...in short order would result in *gas* the loss of or erasing of Palestine and the Palestinian people

I guess you use your phone here more than I do, and don't see my location in Huntington Beach, or have forgotten previous discussions regarding California.  Didn't you used to be in the Bay area at some point?  Regardless, no worries.

 

I don't argue the bolded, and I never have.  Since other terror organizations or states insist on supplying Hamas with weapons, a blockade to that end is not unreasonable, although it would be good to see their humanitarian needs better fulfilled.  And, the blockade is not solely enforced by Israel, FWIW.  

 

Regardless, I still think the rest of the bolded pales in comparison to Palestinian atrocities in the last 70+ years.  Apparently you don't.  And I guess we can leave it at that.

 

I wasn't trying to bait you, I just haven't read everything you wrote on the subject to know where you stood.  Some people think that is a valid position, and could probably find plenty of historical facts to defend it.  I'm glad you don't share it.  However, I could argue your comment about "higher class" of citizen is also childish.  My comment was solely based on maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, per its origins, and NOT an attempt to classify Palestinians as lesser.  If the Jews become outnumbered in their own country, the Jewish state will cease to exist.  If you think the laws in Israel are unjust to Arabs (and I'm sure we could find some common ground there), what do you think would happen when Jews are a minority in their own country... something that the Right to Return would definitely lead to.  I don't want to see a repeat of 1930's Germany in Israel.  I am guessing you don't either, but you appear unwilling or unable to see what any 2-state solution acceptable to the Palestinians would result in.

 

I'm off to enjoy the long weekend, and hope the Habs take it in 7.  

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, 4petesake said:

I’d try and find me some rockets.

Pity the Cheyenne, Sioux,Nez Perce, Comanche,Arapahoe and other native American tribes didn't have an Iron Dome missile system.

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Kragar said:

You forget where I live .  But, in your example, I don't think I would start shooting rockets into population centers as opposed to military targets.  Or encourage women and teenagers to put on some special clothes and have them go looking for a blast of a time in Israel.  IMO, the biggest problem the Palestinians have is their refusal to take the high road.  They and their media outlets work hard to gain public support, and that flows into Western MSM.  Fortunately, too many people see through the nonsensical use of human shields and terrorist tactics, and are able to see a broader picture. When a majority of people in a neighboring state support an organization whose charter demands the utter destruction of that homeland, they've got a long way to climb to get to that high road.

 

Yes, they have the Iron Dome.  Which is also not infallible.  I disagree that they, magically or otherwise, know all the locations and movements, and I strongly disagree about the "small group" of militants.

 

Don't forget, Israel, too, is looking to defend their homeland.  They were there before the Muslims were, and have been persecuted by nearly everyone through history.  You claim every single attack in the last decade was in response to Israeli expansion or aggressive action.  I'll raise that up a notch, and point out that nearly every single military attack since 1948 was not started by Israel.  How does full-scale war not outweigh Israel's actions in the last decade?  How many times can Israel's neighbors try to conquer Israel before you can acknowledge "enough".

 

I'll tag @Ilunga here as well, as I am getting tired of the discussion, and perhaps I can answer you both at the same time.

 

I chuckled at the use of the phrase ethnic cleaning, applied to Israelis, but that was because I hadn't realized the phrase is also used in a non-violent sense.  However, I cannot overlook what Hamas wants to do, and what a large number of Middle East Muslims want or have wanted for decades/centuries: the most extreme form of ethnic cleansing.  Between those two choices, it is easy for me on whom to support.  And, the fact remains, despite these claims of ethnic cleansing, that the Arab population is outpacing the Jewish population in Israel.  I recognize Israel's efforts towards pushing Palestinians out of Israel.  In some ways, I don't blame them. They have established a democracy in their country. The increased proportion of Arabs threatens that democracy.  Add on the regular demands for Right of Return for displaced Palestinians as part of two-state system agreements, and the Jewish state is greatly threatened.

 

Ilunga and I have both stated we support the existence of Israel.  Hip, I'm guessing you do too, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.  A majority of Palestinians - or if not, then at the least a majority in Gaza - do not agree with us.  If that baseline is not recognized, then there will always be a problem, and as far as I am concerned, that problem lies with those who are unwilling to accept Israel's existence.

The Native American people such as the Yuroks,Karoks,Maidu amongst others lived where you now live for over 20,000 years before you got there.

Want to hand your land back to them ?

 

Earlier in this thread I listed about a dozen Israeli terror groups that are or have been active since the 1980's.

 

As for your comment that Israel has a functioning democracy,they have had 4 elections in the last 2 years, their longest serving leader  Ben netanyahu is the corrupt middle eastern version of trump and while the Israeli president Reuven Rivlin has asked Yair Lapid to form a government we will have to wait and see whether it can function.

 

 

 

[Kragar]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

The Native American people such as the Yuroks,Karoks,Maidu amongst others lived where you now live for over 20,000 years before you got there.

Want to hand your land back to them ?

 

Earlier in this thread I listed about a dozen Israeli terror groups that are or have been active since the 1980's.

 

As for your comment that Israel has a functioning democracy,they have had 4 elections in the last 2 years, their longest serving leader  Ben netanyahu is the corrupt middle eastern version of trump and while the Israeli president Reuven Rivlin has asked Yair Lapid to form a government we will have to wait and see whether it can function.

 

 

 

Your aboriginal people say "hi", too.  The differences with our respective aboriginal conflicts and transgressions are that we have all moved far closer to living peacefully than what is seen in Israel.  Maybe they just need more time to get there?  Regardless, the strawman example doesn't fit the discussion.

 

IIRC, Israel is the most democratic country in the ME.  While they have some work to do to improve it, that still gives them a leg up on the rest.

 

I'm guessing we're done here.  Cheers.