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2 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

He was but people often forget that a lot of his success can be attributed to the work that Burke and Nonis did (Ie Luongo, Sedin’s, Bieksa, Kesler, Salo, Raymond, Hansen, Burrows, Schneider, and Edler.  
 

That’a NOT to say that Gillis wasn’t instrumental however.   Gillis took our young burgeoning core, and complemented them with solid pieces such as Samuelson, Erhoff, Torres, Lapierre, Hamhuis.   We would also acquire Jacob Markstrom via trade later on.

 

However,

1) Gillis’ amateur scouting was terrible and I don’t think a single pick of his made the team during his tenure here for an extended period of time other than Hodgson.  Horvat.  That’s it.  And Horvat cost us Schneider.  What always baffles me is how many fans bash Benning’s pro scouting (valid criticism) and yet many of these same people put Gillis on some kind of pedastal when his amateur scouting was just as bad as Benning’s pro scouting.

2) Gillis’ moves after 2011 were........weird.   He handicapped the Canucks with crippling NTC contracts instead of selling high, although in his defense, this order may have come from ownership.  This, combined with his lackluster drafting, left Benning with a HUGE mess to clean.
3) The severe mishandling of the Luongo/Schneider situation.

4) Rubbing many other NHL executives and referees the wrong way which contributed to the Canucks being hated around the league.  This might be why Gillis hasn’t been a GM since 2013.

 

In conclusion, I think both Gillis and Benning are/were good GM’s but just not great.  Gillis’ amateur scouting flops + the aforementioned, while Benning’s pro scouting calculated gambles not panning out + the Virtanen and Juolevi screw up (Atleast trending that way), prevent them from being considered elite.

 

The only thing that baffles me is how Gillis is vastly overrated by many people in this market while Benning gets vastly underrated.....when in reality both guys are “B” level GM’s.

Joulevi is not a screw up he had many injuries early in his career and now healthy will be a good, hopefully top 4 defenseman, when Green gives him a chance

Edited by Sbriggs
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55 minutes ago, combover said:

It’s the only thing left that they can pump “but he drafts good.”

it’s literally  The only remaining excuse they have.

They won’t admit that the draft actually only improved after Bracket got promoted and the guy who was head of scouting all through the Gillis days and before  demoted.

Bad contracts - response but he drafts good

terrible signing -  response he drafts good

lets countless players leave for nothing - he drafts good

bad Trades - he drafts good

cap mismanaged - he drafts good

and the truth of it Is he’s been drafting in the top ten !!!! I don’t think any gm in canucks history has picked so many times in the top ten. 

keenan

nonis 

Benning 

worst gms in team history 
 

 

 

Nonis brought us Luongo, arguably the best goalie we have had and a Stanley Cup run. I give Nonis more credit then Gillis

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19 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

Joulevi is not a screw up he had many injuries early in his career and now healthy will be a good, hopefully top 4 defenseman, when Green gives him a chance

I think Juolevi still has a great chance of being a decent defenseman, but would you still take him over Matthew Tkachuk or some of the other dmen from that draft?

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19 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

Joulevi is not a screw up he had many injuries early in his career and now healthy will be a good, hopefully top 4 defenseman, when Green gives him a chance

Personally, I think Juolevi is looking pretty good in the games he's played this season. I think he'll be here full time, next season, and he's definitely looking like he'll evolve into a top 4. His first pass out of the zone is very good, and I think it will continue to improve as he gets more comfortable with the pace of an NHL game. Most young D, when starting out, are told to keep things simple and not to try and do too much.

 

 

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1 hour ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Probably because one guy was fired (and justifiable so) while the other guy says he needs more time after seven seasons.

Did he say, “he needs more time,” or did he infer that, “we can make a major push starting in 22-23?”   We made the 2nd round last year so all of this talk about 7 years should be put to rest.

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3 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

I think Juolevi still has a great chance of being a decent defenseman, but would you still take him over Matthew Tkachuk or some of the other dmen from that draft?

So If I say take Matt instead of Ollie; then Matt gets hit by a bus and never plays another game; do I get to change my mind again?

 

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Just now, Patel Bure said:

I think Juolevi still has a great chance of being a decent defenseman, but would you still take him over Matthew Tkachuk or some of the other dmen from that draft?

Shoulda coulda woulda, I don't dwell on what could have been, I think OJ was a great choice and he would have been in the line up by now if it weren't for his injuries

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27 minutes ago, gurn said:

Nope, not the only thing at all.

His trading is getting better- Miller and Schmidt as recent evidence

His free agency signing is getting better, see Hamonic as recent evidence.

Seems the closer this team gets to being good, the better Benning gets.

Or maybe it's easier and cheaper to sign players to a potential up and comer; than a team that is spirallling down to the bottom of a rebuild cycle.

7 years and you can cite two trades made from teams who were only trading those players because they needed cap space for better players (Point and Pietrangelo) and signing a UFA who will only agree to play for a max of 4 teams in the NHL, one of which he had already played for and upgraded on him by signing Tanev?

 

Even Bennings drafting is somewhat overrated. Of 6 first round picks still with the team, a 3rd of them can be considered bad picks at their spot (Virtanen and Juolevi), one a clear homerun (Petterssen), and 3 largely consensus picks at their spot (Boeser, Hughes, Podkolzin).

 

He has drafted some good players in later rounds for sure, but he also gave a lot of good players away for little in return that helps the team (McCann, Gaudette, Tryamkin, Forsling).

 

The sheer volume of bad trades and signings can't be ignored. The team will still be suffering from them long after Benning is fired, which for the sake of the team should be the minute the season ends.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

I think Juolevi still has a great chance of being a decent defenseman, but would you still take him over Matthew Tkachuk or some of the other dmen from that draft?

Juolevi was drafted for a specific purpose, his ability to settle a game down and help close out a win. We didn't have anyone else like this in our prospect pool at the time, this is why he was chosen over Tkachuk. Juolevi will NEVER be the offensive threat that Tkachuk is, and it shouldn't be expected. It takes many different talents to win in the NHL.

 

Comparing the two right now, is kind of like asking, would you have gotten into that car 2 years ago, that crashed and broke your legs?

 

If Juolevi hadn't run into injury problems after being drafted, his development path may have been on par with Tkachuk in terms of quality of return based on where he was drafted. If things were different and Tkachuck had run into injury problems, it could just as easily have been Calgary asking why Juolevi didn't fall to them.

 

Juolevi was picked in the range of where he was expected to go in a deep draft year. Hindsight is 20/20, but it gets old, fans trying to make out that the injury struggles that Juolevi has had, have any correlation to Benning drafting him where we did.

 

Here's a quote from Brian Burke on Juolevi and where he was ranked: 

 

Edited by VegasCanuck
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26 minutes ago, gurn said:

Nope, not the only thing at all.

His trading is getting better- Miller and Schmidt as recent evidence

His free agency signing is getting better, see Hamonic as recent evidence.

Seems the closer this team gets to being good, the better Benning gets.

Or maybe it's easier and cheaper to sign players to a potential up and comer; than a team that is spirallling down to the bottom of a rebuild cycle.

Yeah, funny how that works. 

As a fan, I want improvement of course. And even if the team improves DESPITE Jim's multiple fumbles, I'm sure you and others here will be crowing how Jim's 9 year masterplan is coming to fruition, and chiding the ones who doubted.

Thing is we'll never know how much further ahead we'd be if we'd had a more competent GM all this time.  Brackett was in the system before Benning, and was a Linden pick, so he'd still most likely helped draft much of the same core.

 

I am hoping Jim is shown the door by the Aquilinis.  Sooner rather than later.  But if the nightmare must continue, the only reason I can see that happening is if the Aquas feel guilty about how they sabotaged him early. Then of course I want him to succeed. But this team could find someone so much more competent.  I'd also like to have a GM not afraid of other voices. The two man huddle with his old hockey buddy Weisbrod, who partially screwed up Calgary's drafting, is disconcerting.

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1 hour ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

How long have you followed hockey?  No, this isn’t a thinly veiled insult.:lol:  I ask because I wanted your opinion on former Canuck Anders Elderbrink (forgive me for the incorrect spelling).  Just how good was he?  I think we gave up on him too early (granted it was a different game back then).  I just heard from one fan Swedish hockey during that time who said he was a great defenseman.

Well, that was some old time. 

He was big and good. I can't relate to NHL though. I saw him mostly playing for national team. So winning WC 1987 was big and he did a great job but my favourite back then was Pekka Lindmark.

I started watching hockey a bit more when Pekka Lindmark was goalie for Timrå IK.

 

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

I think that had a lot more to do with how the fan base and media reacted.  JB didn't offer up much of anything, and it got spun from there.   At the time i was also dissappointed as had high hopes for Dahlen, since nothing to complain about it was the correct move, he isn't an NHLer and we have a younger depth player that could be, probably not but neither was Dahlen, good recycling and also avoided like i say, a situation where EPs feelings would be decided as a higher metric then what's good for the team.    One reason i'm not too keen on drafting LH.   Risks involved ...

It wasn't spun because the hate came directly from what Benning said.

It wasn't interpreted in any way.. 

 

But we got Karlsson and he is on hus way up in a great swedish team.

I really hope Benning leave him there.

AHL isn't a place for swedish players unless they are a more physical player.

Creative players should stay away. 

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54 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Totally agree about the cycles that teams go through.

 

However, it’s also highly unusual for a team to go through a down/rebuilding phase like the Canucks have, for the past seven years, and keep the same GM. It’s much more common for a team with similar results to be on their second or even third management group, by this point in time. 
 

I’d be interested to hear of any example within the past 25 years of a GM remaining at the helm after his tenure yielding similar results to JB’s.

 

I’ve never been one of the people actively rooting for Benning to be fired, but I’ve also been somewhat baffled by his ability to remain unscathed and secure in his position as Canucks GM. Just based on the norms, around the league, and the standards most GMs are held to, Benning could easily have been fired several times over already.

 

He’s really been the cat with nine lives in Vancouver.

Some very good points for sure! Def seems like a musical chairs league in regards to gm's, especially for teams in this position. Not many gm's that have held the fort for long periods and through the up's and downs. 

 

Obviously teams shouldn't keep a gm, or coach for that matter just because, but since no one gm (or coach) is perfect and since teams go through cycles, i wonder if keeping a gm longer term is good for consistency / stability. Nothing worse that going through gm's (or coaches) constantly...doesn't really breed confidence. And, sometimes it doesn't even help or change the results anyway. Not saying this is or should be the case in Vancouver. Just a general thought. Sometimes the grass isn't always greener.

 

That being said, sometimes change just needs to happen for one reason or another and sometimes that change is needed to progress. Maybe that's what needs to happen here? Not 100% sure. 

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2 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

It wasn't spun because the hate came directly from what Benning said.

It wasn't interpreted in any way.. 

 

But we got Karlsson and he is on hus way up in a great swedish team.

I really hope Benning leave him there.

AHL isn't a place for swedish players unless they are a more physical player.

Creative players should stay away. 

european players of all types need to learn how to play the north american game on north american ice if they want to have any chance of success in the nhl. 

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33 minutes ago, tas said:

european players of all types need to learn how to play the north american game on north american ice if they want to have any chance of success in the nhl. 

One of the Covid casualties for a Vcr draft pick was Victor Persson. He was intending to play for Kamloops in the Dub which may well have situated him well for his future, getting used to and coached in NA style hockey. Badly missed opportunity. Covid cancelled all of that

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1 hour ago, combover said:

It’s the only thing left that they can pump “but he drafts good.”

it’s literally  The only remaining excuse they have.

They won’t admit that the draft actually only improved after Bracket got promoted and the guy who was head of scouting all through the Gillis days and before  demoted.

Bad contracts - response but he drafts good

terrible signing -  response he drafts good

lets countless players leave for nothing - he drafts good

bad Trades - he drafts good

cap mismanaged - he drafts good

and the truth of it Is he’s been drafting in the top ten !!!! I don’t think any gm in canucks history has picked so many times in the top ten. 

keenan

nonis 

Benning 

worst gms in team history 
 

 

 

Keenan sucked.   But where he doesn't get any credit was the simple fact that the Linden era team and any loyal to him got the boot.   Those transactions laid the road for two consecutive cores - almost three with Markstrom.   His worst move was keeping Zezel over Walker in the expansion draft to NSH.   I very much dislike the guy, but you have to admit he did the biggest move in franchise history.   Plus we got Linden back four years later lol.   Nonis ... had one of the best drafts we've ever had, and a couple crap ones - but also traded for Luongo.   Without that move MG wouldn't have been able to wreck what Nonis and Burke built.   MG should be on that list too.   Made the next GMs job extremely difficult, and for all the money he saved with his country club atmosphere he made, Booth and Ballard got bought out.   Folks complain about Myers lol...he's better the  Ballard and at the exact same cap hit percentage.   And on the team.   We'd be scewed as far as toughness goes without the older vets.     

 

JB legacy is far from being able to properly judge.    We won't for another ten years.    MG seemed very good at the time but there were obvious flaws as well.    One first rounder traded ... for Ballard - six drafts and Hutton plus Horvat.   Yet everyone was stoked to get both Booth and Ballard.   Right? 

 

I don't have all the answers.  But can say the clubs drafting, which absolutely is the key when rebuilding, has been in the top 1/4-1/3 of the league after draft position is considered (our average draft position was like we drafted 9, 3,3, 4 during our lowest years ... but we drafted closer to ten).   I'm ok with JB going and maybe it's time, maybe it's not.   Kind of feel both the fanbase, ownership and the media owe him the benifit of the doubt and let him finish his contract.   Not many GMs really separate themselves from the pack do they?  I get hockey enough to know JB done an above average job.    And was stoked he didn't commit to all those contracts last season so he could prepare for this and the next one.   It was the right move. 

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so, if i come to cdc for some kind of consenses on what course the team should take, i come away with a headache. just everyone's opinion dashing off in every direction. this is why i prescribe the decisions being made by hockey people and not fans. as fans, we can't even agree on anything. we are also use every dissatisfaction to push our opinions on the future. i'm sure there is some truth to what everyone thinks, but we are infallable  in our opinions. i just wish that people could leave name calling out of their arguements.

otherwise i'm enjoying everyone's take on the situation.

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57 minutes ago, tas said:

european players of all types need to learn how to play the north american game on north american ice if they want to have any chance of success in the nhl. 

Yeah, why not saying that to Petey and Hogz instead for me.

Interesting you want them to play in AHL instead of with the Canucks. 

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