Geoff Courtnall to return to Canucks?

[Pickly]

I wonder how the players feel about everything that's gone on this season. The departures of key room guys in the offseason (yes hockey is a business but still) the Toffoli situation (was never formally offered a contract by the club) the covid situation and lack of communication from the team to the players (and the sudden departure of Gaudette) and the overall body language of key guys like Miller. I just hope that this doesn't turn into a situation like Buffalo where a guy like Miller says F it I want a trade to a team that has a clear plan and path to winning. 

[Gurn]

7 minutes ago, Pickly said:

and the overall body language of key guys like Miller.

That is just Miller reverting to his norm.

Guy had a career year with points and attitude last season and has slipped a bit in both this season.

 

Edit to add.

Given the way the whole damn season has gone it is no surprise that players are having strange years.

Between a covid pandemic, a 2 day training camp, a condensed schedule, Miller missing a few days due to a covid exposure, then a covid outbreak on the team......etc.

Edited May 18, 2021 by gurn

[tas]

1 minute ago, Pickly said:

I wonder how the players feel about everything that's gone on this season. The departures of key room guys in the offseason (yes hockey is a business but still) the Toffoli situation (was never formally offered a contract by the club) the covid situation and lack of communication from the team to the players (and the sudden departure of Gaudette) and the overall body language of key guys like Miller. I just hope that this doesn't turn into a situation like Buffalo where a guy like Miller says F it I want a trade to a team that has a clear plan and path to winning. 

I think it's clear there's a schism in the organization, it's just hard to know where the dividing lines have been drawn. I personally have it narrowed down to either:

 

players and coaches vs management and ownership

 

or

 

players, coaches and management vs ownership

[Pickly]

8 minutes ago, tas said:

I think it's clear there's a schism in the organization, it's just hard to know where the dividing lines have been drawn. I personally have it narrowed down to either:

 

players and coaches vs management and ownership

 

or

 

players, coaches and management vs ownership

I firmly believe the players are on Greens side as it's no secret they like playing for him. Pure speculation, but I think it's a coaches and players vs management and ownership rift.

[Dazzle]

3 minutes ago, Pickly said:

I firmly believe the players are on Greens side as it's no secret they like playing for him. Pure speculation, but I think it's a coaches and players vs management and ownership rift.

Maybe there is no rift to speak of. The 'rift' idea is so overstated. Buffalo has a clear rift. The current state of the Canucks doesn't and shouldn't have any more of a rift than any average hockey team that doesn't make the playoffs. Unlike fans, the players try to do their best to help the team. If it doesn't work, some of these players will get shipped out. That's just the reality of the situation.

[Pickly]

11 minutes ago, gurn said:

That is just Miller reverting to his norm.

Guy had a career year with points and attitude last season and has slipped a bit in both this season.

 

Edit to add.

Given the way the whole damn season has gone it is no surprise that players are having strange years.

Between a covid pandemic, a 2 day training camp, a condensed schedule, Miller missing a few days due to a covid exposure, then a covid outbreak on the team......etc.

Abnormal year, for sure. It's clearly taken its toll on the guys and they are doing their best given the circumstances. Thay being said, they are all probably well aware at what's happening with the uncertainty with about what's to come and if I'm a good player in his prime years I'd want a definite explanation on what the plan is moving forwards. Also, they are playing for a coach who hasn't had a contract for the future all year and one whom I'm certain they like, and that could definitely have a negative affect on overall morale and vibe amongst the team. 

[Pickly]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

Maybe there is no rift to speak of. The 'rift' idea is so overstated. Buffalo has a clear rift. The current state of the Canucks doesn't and shouldn't have any more of a rift than any average hockey team that doesn't make the playoffs. Unlike fans, the players try to do their best to help the team. If it doesn't work, some of these players will get shipped out. That's just the reality of the situation.

As I said. Speculation. But to think this team isn't in any sort of disarray as we speak is laughable. Where there's smoke, there's fire. I expect big changes in the coming days. 

[Dazzle]

50 minutes ago, spook007 said:

It doesn’t change the fact he was a good pick. The boy is playing in the NHL (not looking out of place), and thats all you can ask for from a 24th pick. 
That they used him in a trade that didn’t work out, is totally irrelevant. 
If Flyers had traded Konecny (24th pick) to us for Sbisa the year after, would you say he was a bad pick? No it would be a poor trade...
 

The fact McCann was traded for Guddy, who was lost in Vancouver is a different story. The only real complaints I remember about McCann, was the ‘it is, what it is’... 

Yes there were a few better players he could have picked at 24 with Pastnak and Brayden Point springing to mind or Victor Arvidson... 

 

I’d actually argue that from a drafting point Benning did well in the 2014 draft with both Demko, Tryamkin and Forsling... 

 

Tryamkin is swing we would do again if presented, and Forsling is also stil playing as an NHL’er...

 

The fact they don’t play for Canucks are a different story. 
 

PS. The year before we picked Shinkaruk in same position... now that was a bad pick. 

To add to your points, McCann didn't actually breakout until several trades/years later (kind of a situation like Grabner and his waivers).

 

Demko was a solid homerun pick. Anyone who thinks Benning didn't/doesn't draft well, especially compared to his predecessors is just trying to cling onto the idea of Gillis being a 'better' GM. The reality was that Gillis had severe shortcomings himself, namely the absolutely dreadful showcase of his prospects (there are none, except Hutton and Horvat). I've seen a number of excuses made to justify the poor showing of picks, such as that the "team was trying to win".

 

Also, Shinkaruk was a promising prospect, but injuries derailed him. Kind of like Hodgson really.

[Dazzle]

16 minutes ago, Pickly said:

As I said. Speculation. But to think this team isn't in any sort of disarray as we speak is laughable. Where there's smoke, there's fire. I expect big changes in the coming days. 

As you said. Speculation.

 

An NHL team (collectively) is not likely to whine about a situation, to the point that they'll purposefully do so bad to get coaches/GMs fired. That is the difference between a professional and an adolescent person.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Dazzle

[stawns]

39 minutes ago, Pickly said:

I wonder how the players feel about everything that's gone on this season. The departures of key room guys in the offseason (yes hockey is a business but still) the Toffoli situation (was never formally offered a contract by the club) the covid situation and lack of communication from the team to the players (and the sudden departure of Gaudette) and the overall body language of key guys like Miller. I just hope that this doesn't turn into a situation like Buffalo where a guy like Miller says F it I want a trade to a team that has a clear plan and path to winning. 

Players have dealt with that since they started playing Jr.  Dressing rooms are fluid and you learn that it's just business.  Your focus is on the ice and the players around you.  

[Pickly]

4 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

As you said. Speculation.

 

Seems like you have a different opinion, and are dismissive of someone having a different opinion on the matter. An NHL team (collectively) is not likely to whine about a situation, to the point that they'll purposefully do so bad to get coaches/GMs fired. That is the difference between a professional and an adolescent person.

Since you think that any other opinion aside from yours is "laughable", I find THAT laughable.

Okay. So I never said that the team is doing bad on purpose. I previously said they are doing their best given the circumstances this season. The team is at a crossroads whether you want to admit it or not. 

[stawns]

18 minutes ago, Pickly said:

As I said. Speculation. But to think this team isn't in any sort of disarray as we speak is laughable. Where there's smoke, there's fire. I expect big changes in the coming days. 

In disarray because the media says so?  It's been a laughable year, one you just write off.  Last summer everything was rainbows and unicorns.  My guess is that management and ownership are on the same page and just tune out the dog and pony show

[Dazzle]

Just now, Pickly said:

Okay. So I never said that the team is doing bad on purpose. I previously said they are doing their best given the circumstances this season. The team is at a crossroads whether you want to admit it or not. 

I've edited my original post because I felt I was a little too hostile than I should've been. You are right. The team is clearly not close. It actually seems like we took a step back, but the funny thing is, the Tanev/Markstrom deals had little to do with the decline either.

[Pickly]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

In disarray because the media says so?  It's been a laughable year, one you just write off.  Last summer everything was rainbows and unicorns.  My guess is that management and ownership are on the same page and just tune out the dog and pony show

I guess we'll find out by weeks end.

[Kenny Blankenship]

12 minutes ago, stawns said:

In disarray because the media says so?  It's been a laughable year, one you just write off.  Last summer everything was rainbows and unicorns.  My guess is that management and ownership are on the same page and just tune out the dog and pony show

Not that it’s been said in this thread, but I’ve been reading people compare this organization to Buffalo, which is hilarious. As you said, this time last year we won 2 rounds of playoff hockey and everything was good. Now suddenly the sky is falling? I hate how our fanbase takes the media’s word as gospel and doesn’t look at things as a whole. Makes it hard to be a fan sometimes. 

[24K PureCool]

44 minutes ago, Pickly said:

I firmly believe the players are on Greens side as it's no secret they like playing for him. Pure speculation, but I think it's a coaches and players vs management and ownership rift.

Green stated or at the very least implied JB want him back but ownership is not ponying up. So it is really players,coach,management vs. ownership.

The rift is the limitation of resources from Aqua's penny pinching. This management, coaching staff, and players were setup to fail and the reputation of the franchise now shows it. 

That is why I don't care if JB is fired or not cause nothing will fundamentally change if Francesco is still in charge or they don't hire a CEO for CSE.

[Chickenspear]

50 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

does anyone under 50 even really know who Courtall was? or saw him play? this was to placate the older season ticket members that spend big. 

Yes sir. My 1st canucks game was my 3rd b-day, Nov. 3rd 1991 vs. Edm, 7-2 win in Courtnall's 1st full season as a canuck. A few years later I ended up getting his and Russ's autographs, when they came to Nanaimo, in the 25th anniversary silver edition book, on the 2 page net cam photo of Richter getting beat.

[Josepho]

26 minutes ago, stawns said:

Players have dealt with that since they started playing Jr.  Dressing rooms are fluid and you learn that it's just business.  Your focus is on the ice and the players around you.  

Between comments from Miller/Horvat/Matthias/Toffoli, is it really that hard to believe that this management group is awful at communicating, and that that might impact their relationship with the players?

 

Anyone who's had a job ever should know going to work and trying your best is easier when you believe in the process. 

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, Chickenspear said:

Yes sir. My 1st canucks game was my 3rd b-day, Nov. 3rd 1991 vs. Edm, 7-2 win in Courtnall's 1st full season as a canuck. A few years later I ended up getting his and Russ's autographs, when they came to Nanaimo, in the 25th anniversary silver edition book, on the 2 page net cam photo of Richter getting beat.

nice. OK maybe I should have said 40  but I do think this is all for the consumption of the older, big spenders. 

 

I really don't agree with the idea that the fan base is behind any knee jerk kind of moves either, we've been a loyal bunch through a lot of rough times. 

[EternalCanuckFan]

IMHO, the conclusion that some changes are needed in management is accurate but the scope of those changes is the main point of contention.  It's been said before but I think Benning (and the scouting staff under him) have done a good job during his time here.  Yes, there have been a few misses and short sighted decisions with prospects especially early on in his tenure, but the prospect cupboard is the most intriguing than it's ever been as long as I have been a fan.  Yes, a lot of this was aided by the fact that the Canucks have drafted higher over the last few years, but even teams that often draft high still have a large proportion of prospects who don't pan out.

 

For this reason, I think Benning still deserves a spot in management but some thing (or things) certainly seems missing.  Communication has never really been his strong suit, and I believe this affects all areas of his responsibilities which includes but is not limited to contract negotiations.  If Benning remains in management with the Canucks, then subject to his acceptance, I have to imagine that it would be in a diminished role.  Personally I suspect this will be exceptionally difficult to achieve, though not impossible depending on Benning's willingness to fall in line with a new leader.

 

I think the most likely outcome is that we will in fact see a change in management this offseason which would blow the door open to more changes.  It's very difficult to tweak management and bring in a new lead voice when the previous one is still in the room.  The potential of competing interests negating efforts to all pull in the same direction is too high.