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JohnTavares

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23 minutes ago, stawns said:

I'm not baiting you here.........can you give me an example?

There are lots of examples of cap strapped teams trading decent players plus picks or prospects for little more than cap space.

 

Marleau and a 1st, 7th in exchange for 1 year of 6.25 million and a 6th comes to mind.

 

I would have taken that deal over a guy like Sutter, Beagle, Roussel, any day of the week.

 

Olli Maatta to the Kings for scraps (with retention by the Hawks) and Johnsson to New Jersey for scraps come to mind too as those 26 ish age gap filler players Benning values.

 

Compare it to trade prices paid for Sutter plus the subsequent contract, the Roussel contract, the Beagle contract, the Gagner turned to Spooner buyout contract etc.

 

Miller and Schmidt were both cap relief trades for their other organization. People love those trades so why wouldnt that same appeoach be applied to depth veteran players.

 

With the cap space he has had, Benning could have added another 5-6 high picks to the drafting pool. Or had more assets to use to make trades like the Miller/Schmidt ones.

 

There was literally no value in taking the bad contract ufa route. Bad contracts are easy and cheap to acquire. May as wellget other assets and avoid trade protection clauses for similar quality placeholder players.

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1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

There are lots of examples of cap strapped teams trading decent players plus picks or prospects for little more than cap space.

 

Marleau and a 1st, 7th in exchange for 1 year of 6.25 million and a 6th comes to mind.

 

I would have taken that deal over a guy like Sutter, Beagle, Roussel, any day of the week.

 

Olli Maatta to the Kings for scraps (with retention by the Hawks) and Johnsson to New Jersey for scraps come to mind too as those 26 ish age gap filler players Benning values.

 

Compare it to trade prices paid for Sutter plus the subsequent contract, the Roussel contract, the Beagle contract, the Gagner turned to Spooner buyout contract etc.

 

Miller and Schmidt were both cap relief trades for their other organization. People love those trades so why wouldnt that same appeoach be applied to depth veteran players.

 

With the cap space he has had, Benning could have added another 5-6 high picks to the drafting pool. Or had more assets to use to make trades like the Miller/Schmidt ones.

 

There was literally no value in taking the bad contract ufa route. Bad contracts are easy and cheap to acquire. May as wellget other assets and avoid trade protection clauses for similar quality placeholder players.

I meant can you give an example of  JB making a trade like that early on in his tenure?

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9 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

Don't fall for the troll/bait man. If people don't understand how cap space works, it's on them..

They understand it when it is convenient or puts Benning in a positive light.

 

Like the Miller trade and (arguably) the Schmodt trade. They still gave up good assets in those deals  but at a deep discount over the prices to acquire them had TB not needed the space to sign a better player in Point and Vegas did not need the space to sign a better player in Pietrangelo.

 

Benning could have gotten his placeholder vets much more efficiently, less costly, and easier to eventually move out if he had taken the same approach with his support vets.

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6 minutes ago, stawns said:

I meant can you give an example of  JB making a trade like that early on in his tenure?

Benning specifically avoided doing it as cap space came available. He signed expensive UFA contracts instead. Thats my point.

 

Middle of the road placeholder vets could have been acquired more efficiently in a far more supportive way of a through the draft rebuild.

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On 5/16/2021 at 1:54 PM, JohnTavares said:

 It's clear that Jim and co do not want voices in the room and clearly want yes-men supporting their operation.

 

 The OP - it's all "factz and real evidencez!" 

!O!

 

Anyhow - enough time wasted in this retread thread.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

There are lots of examples of cap strapped teams trading decent players plus picks or prospects for little more than cap space.

 

Marleau and a 1st, 7th in exchange for 1 year of 6.25 million and a 6th comes to mind.

 

I would have taken that deal over a guy like Sutter, Beagle, Roussel, any day of the week.

 

Olli Maatta to the Kings for scraps (with retention by the Hawks) and Johnsson to New Jersey for scraps come to mind too as those 26 ish age gap filler players Benning values.

 

Compare it to trade prices paid for Sutter plus the subsequent contract, the Roussel contract, the Beagle contract, the Gagner turned to Spooner buyout contract etc.

 

Miller and Schmidt were both cap relief trades for their other organization. People love those trades so why wouldnt that same appeoach be applied to depth veteran players.

 

With the cap space he has had, Benning could have added another 5-6 high picks to the drafting pool. Or had more assets to use to make trades like the Miller/Schmidt ones.

 

There was literally no value in taking the bad contract ufa route. Bad contracts are easy and cheap to acquire. May as wellget other assets and avoid trade protection clauses for similar quality placeholder players.

Agreed, this is the biggest issue for me, the inability to be creative and build up assets, a real opportunity was missed to add some good assets through this method. The same time the team took on bigger then needed contracts for lesser value players, although adding guys like Beagle were a positive for the group, the room and the young guys I won't say having some of those guys was a mistake as much as the means to obtain them in the end.

 

There is also an aspect of Bennings performance now that is affected by ownership ( 110% their right to run their team as they wish ) where as early on he was given free reign to add the Eriksson's and sign the Sutter's contracts, make the Gudbranson trade etc etc where now since he made this bed he is not allowed or was unable to extend a Toffoli for example, yes ownership had a say but it was Bennings prior moves that put him in that position.

 

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Deer In The headlights

the JB “it is what is” “foundational” “competitive “

“Winning environment””ran out of time “..  (still) “ 2 years away” since 2014 

era 

 

966A0B3B-6870-40EE-8E86-CB832BDDD2D7.jpeg

Edited by combover
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2 hours ago, stawns said:

If I owned a sports franchise, paid tens of millions of dollars, you can bet that I'd be an active owner.  You buy a franchise because you're a fan to begin with.  Why would I pay that kind of dough and be hands off for something I love.

Because you will make uneducated decisions based on emotions. If I had spent that kind of money and was a hockey fan I would want to see the Cup banner hanging in my building. 

I would spend good money to hire proven management . I would turn the decisions over to pros and let them do their job. If they failed then I would find someone else until my franchise won it all. 

 

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29 minutes ago, combover said:

Deer In The headlights

the JB “it is what is” “foundational” “competitive “

“Winning environment””ran out of time “..  (still) “ 2 years away” since 2014 

era 

 

966A0B3B-6870-40EE-8E86-CB832BDDD2D7.jpeg

That picture explains the last 7 years. 

 

This is what the owners are content with. 

 

This entire year is being made better because they are going on a mini winning streak to end the year. 

Edited by appleboy
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25 minutes ago, appleboy said:

Because you will make uneducated decisions based on emotions. If I had spent that kind of money and was a hockey fan I would want to see the Cup banner hanging in my building. 

I would spend good money to hire proven management . I would turn the decisions over to pros and let them do their job. If they failed then I would find someone else until my franchise won it all. 

 

This exactly.

 

Being hands on and being interfering to the detriment of your franchise are two different things.

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1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Benning specifically avoided doing it as cap space came available. He signed expensive UFA contracts instead. Thats my point.

 

Middle of the road placeholder vets could have been acquired more efficiently in a far more supportive way of a through the draft rebuild.

I meant an example of one you would have liked to have seen, rather than a UFA signing

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1 hour ago, appleboy said:

Because you will make uneducated decisions based on emotions. If I had spent that kind of money and was a hockey fan I would want to see the Cup banner hanging in my building. 

I would spend good money to hire proven management . I would turn the decisions over to pros and let them do their job. If they failed then I would find someone else until my franchise won it all. 

 

Sports is full of successful franchises who spends tons of money but don't make it to the promised land.  There's a thousand different things that have to happen to be a champion and not very many of them are money related.......in fact, injuries are probably the biggest factor and have certainly been one of the main speedbumps for this organization since JB took over

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3 hours ago, stawns said:

it's not something in between and people thinking it is doesn't change the fact that it is a private enterprise.  Again, you have some power to make a statement......stop watching, stop going to games, don't go to AHL games in Abbotsford, don't buy merch, don't watch games on TV.  That's your right.  You can complain on an internet forum, but don't pretend to be entitled to anything more than that, you're not.  

 

If I owned a sports franchise, paid tens of millions of dollars, you can bet that I'd be an active owner.  You buy a franchise because you're a fan to begin with.  Why would I pay that kind of dough and be hands off for something I love?

 

Ultimately, I don't know why anyone would complain about FA.........he's been nothing but supportive and willing to spend money on the franchise.  It could be a lot lot worse

 I'll grant you it could be a lot worse.

 

But I'd challenge you on the unique circumstances and responsibility that an NHL hockey team owner has to its city or provinces citizens. And how its not just like owning any other private business.

 

Just because its not a legal responsibility, doesn't mean its not still an important cultural responsibility.  Its a privilege to own a major sports franchise.  The Beedies were hell bent on acquiring the Canucks too.  I wish they had, I rent a studio in one of their properties, and got excited when they were bidding for them.

 

Its difficult to come up with any comparable.   Perhaps a news media owner.  They SHOULD feel a little more obligation to the community other than raking in as much cash as they can don't you think? To present stories that are sourced properly, not based on conspiracy theories etc... Even if they did market studies which showed that if they switched to a Fox News like format, dishing out panic and sensation based on fear of the "other", and whacky conspiracies, more people would watch, like slowing down to watch the aftermath of a car accident.

 

And that is still not a good analogy because there are other newspapers, news channels.  You help me make my point when you are forced to admit that, if the owner decides to wreck the team, even just for his own amusement, as is his right as a private business owner dammit!,  the only alternative for a long suffering Canuck fan is to...."stop watching, stop going to games, don't go to AHL games in Abbotsford, don't buy merch, don't watch games on TV."

 

Like that's going to happen.  That's the dumbest argument yet.  Hockey is a religion in this country. I'm a long time Canuck fan.  Bad ownership and bad management has never turned me away from the actual players and coaches.  If they have to compete against a bad schedule, or Bettman or biased refs, I don't leave the team.   Same with terrible amateur scouting, deficient management or meddling by owners.  Just one more hurdle for the players to jump over, and me right behind them.  Its part of being a Canucks fan.  I just wish for one less hurdle.

 

But you seem hell bent on seeing zero nuance in the differences of the responsibility to the community in owning a hockey team in a major Canadian city, and a hot dog stand on the street in front of Rogers Arena.  So we have to stop there and agree to disagree.

 

You say you wouldn't care if an owner takes your team and tanks it......cause he rich.  I think Francesco cares more than you do!   Based on his many messages to fans.  Do you think he's being sincere?   I'll bet if you asked them (and they answered), the Aquilinis would bristle at you for implying that they should feel no responsibility to hockey fans in this province. Or that its only a money making machine for them.

 

And I admire their fandom. Their passion for the team too.  But when that passion spills into important management decisions on things they know little about...it can be self sabotaging.  Not just for their bottom line, but for the sports culture in this Province.  It affects thousands, if not millions of people. If they don't feel any obligation other than profit, they damn well should.  And its kinda ironic that if they had kept their paws off, the team might be in a better position today.  Which is why I think they are hesitating on firing Benning, as they know deep down they helped shape his perception by fans and media by their early demands. 

Such is life being a Canucks fan.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 I'll grant you it could be a lot worse.

 

But I'd challenge you on the unique circumstances and responsibility that an NHL hockey team owner has to its city or provinces citizens. And how its not just like owning any other private business.

 

Just because its not a legal responsibility, doesn't mean its not still an important cultural responsibility.  Its a privilege to own a major sports franchise.  The Beedies were hell bent on acquiring the Canucks too.  I wish they had, I rent a studio in one of their properties, and got excited when they were bidding for them.

 

Its difficult to come up with any comparable.   Perhaps a news media owner.  They SHOULD feel a little more obligation to the community other than raking in as much cash as they can don't you think? To present stories that are sourced properly, not based on conspiracy theories etc... Even if they did market studies which showed that if they switched to a Fox News like format, dishing out panic and sensation based on fear of the "other", and whacky conspiracies, more people would watch, like slowing down to watch the aftermath of a car accident.

 

And that is still not a good analogy because there are other newspapers, news channels.  You help me make my point when you are forced to admit that, if the owner the only alternative for a long suffering Canuck fan is to...."stop watching, stop going to games, don't go to AHL games in Abbotsford, don't buy merch, don't watch games on TV."

 

Like that's going to happen.  That's the dumbest argument yet.  Hockey is a religion in this country. I'm a long time Canuck fan.  Bad ownership and bad management has never turned me away from the actual players and coaches.  If they have to compete against a bad schedule, or Bettman or biased refs, I don't leave the team.   Same with terrible amateur scouting, deficient management or meddling by owners.  Just one more hurdle for the players to jump over, and me right behind them.  Its part of being a Canucks fan.  I just wish for one less hurdle.

 

But you seem hell bent on seeing zero nuance in the differences of the responsibility to the community in owning a hockey team in a major Canadian city, and a hot dog stand on the street in front of Rogers Arena.  So we have to stop there and agree to disagree.

 

You say you wouldn't care if an owner takes your team and tanks it......cause he rich.  I think Francesco cares more than you do!   Based on his many messages to fans.  Do you think he's being sincere?   I'll bet if you asked them (and they answered), the Aquilinis would bristle at you for implying that they should feel no responsibility to hockey fans in this province. Or that its only a money making machine for them.

 

And I admire their fandom. Their passion for the team too.  But when that passion spills into important management decisions on things they know little about...it can be self sabotaging.  Not just for their bottom line, but for the sports culture in this Province.  It affects thousands, if not millions of people. If they don't feel any obligation other than profit, they damn well should.  And its kinda ironic that if they had kept their paws off, the team might be in a better position today.  Which is why I think they are hesitating on firing Benning, as they know deep down they helped shape his perception by fans and media by their early demands. 

Such is life being a Canucks fan.

 

 

I don't see a difference, no .........because there is no difference.  He owns a business that provides a business to consumers.  You are a consumer therefore your power is in your wallet.  

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19 minutes ago, stawns said:

I meant an example of one you would have liked to have seen, rather than a UFA signing

Benning has had cap space every year other than last summer (thanks to all his bad signings). 

 

You havent seen any trades in that time where he could have gotten a comparable bottom 6 or bottom pairing guy for pennies on the dollar?

 

If I feel like digging through 7 years of trades I will get you some examples. Of course that doesnt cover the ton of rumored deals that have been out there over that time too.

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People that dont understand the strategy I have outlined just dont want to because for whatever reason they have to feel Benning has done a great job. The reality is he has missed a ton of opportunity over the years trying to be competitive every year even though the team has not been competitive at all over his 7 years.

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