Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management

[JohnTavares]

1 minute ago, gurn said:

I'd have picked Ollie before Tkachuk.

Nobody knew he was going to get injured.

And it turned out to be a huge bust.

 

Nobody can claim JB as this exceptional draft guru when he whiffed on TWO top six picks.

[bishopshodan]

22 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

Great. Drafting is one part of the job.

 

What about his trades and signings?

 

Would you buy a car with a really nice exterior but a broken engine?

I'd buy a car with a good engine but an exterior that could use some tweaks.

 

Feel like that is what we have here with all the Canucks young talent, a good engine, good future core. 

[4petesake]

6 minutes ago, Josepho said:

The Canucks weren't exactly loaded with LW prospects either. But you should never pick by need. RW wasn't considered our biggest position of need in 2015, should we have passed on Boeser then?

 

Also, given that the arguments are about how Benning is some great scout, he should be able to identify the best options for his team himself. A GM shouldn't simply get credit as a great scout for picking what the lists say.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought this thread was “Honest Conversation...” 

JB wanted a center PLD and once he was gone turned to the other glaring need, defence. I had no problem with the idea that a defenceman was the best option for the team. Choosing Pettersson one year doesn’t make Jim a super scout and choosing Juolevi another year doesn’t make him terrible. 
 

Look at his whole body of work and if your not satisfied I have no problem with that. I am more than pleased with the team’s draft record under JB. I have some reservations about other aspects of the job he has done but I have yet to hear FA’s opinion. So I’ll wait.

[ShawnAntoski]

30 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

What people like him (ie 650 Sportsnet, HF Canucks, etc.,) don’t realize is that nothing matters unless it’s backed by results.  Period.  From a results point of view, the Canucks are no different than Edmonton and Calgary these last few years because we also got to the 2nd round.   The Jets are above us because they got to the 3rd round, while the Leafs are below all of those teams because they have yet to make the 2nd round (although that will likely change this season).   It’s that simple.

 

If we are talking about the Canucks’ “7 years,” then the Leafs 17 years (no playoffs since 2004) also needs to be considered.  This whole “7 years thing” annoys the $&!# out of me because it disregards our 1st year under Benning when we made the playoffs (Benning brought in Ryan Miller, Vrbata, Dorset, and the assets from the Kesler deal), while we made the 2nd round last season.  So this whole “7 years” thing is just nonsense.  We missed the playoffs four 4 straight seasons, and seem to be extremely well positioned for 

Yeah, in a few years the Laffs will be begging Bettman for another first OA pick; still no goalie to build around.

Edited May 17, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[stawns]

5 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

You can't say that either. We may or may not have had Hughes or Petey. No point in examining the butterfly effect.

Fact is, if we had Nylander and Tkachuk, we are likely in the playoffs right now.

I'm not sure you know what "fact"means

 

remind me when Calgary starts their playoff series this season?

[Bad_BOI_pete]

2 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

I said whiffing on the Virtanen and Juolevi picks set this team back years.

 

If this team had Nylander and Tkachuk in their top six, they would be a legitimate contender and be in the playoffs right now.

they weren't even whiffs, their careers have barely started.

 

How many years does the average hockey player play? The average NHL player plays on average 4.5 years. However, when looking at the data in detail the top 25% of players played an average of 12 years, whereas the bottom 75% played an average of 2 years

 

of all the first  round picks everyone of them played a NHL game despite Gaunce.

[Alflives]

Just now, ShawnAntoski said:

Yeah, in a few years the Laffs will be begging Bettman for another first OA pick ...

How many years before Matthews is a UFA and leaves Toronto for Arizona?  Is it two?  

[Gurn]

6 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

And it turned out to be a huge bust.

 

Nobody can claim JB as this exceptional draft guru when he whiffed on TWO top six picks.

What?

You are actually blaming Jim because Ollie got injured?       Wow.

[JohnTavares]

1 minute ago, Petey_BOI said:

they weren't even whiffs, their careers have barely started.

 

How many years does the average hockey player play? The average NHL player plays on average 4.5 years. However, when looking at the data in detail the top 25% of players played an average of 12 years, whereas the bottom 75% played an average of 2 years

 

of all the first  round picks everyone of them played a NHL game despite Gaunce.

Virtanen and Juolevi weren't whiffs at their respective positions?

 

How can this be an honest conversation when the Benning shills literally will defend him until they die? It's eerily similar to down south and Mr Trump.

[erkayloomeh]

4 hours ago, JohnTavares said:

I want to have a genuine and honest conversation with those who still support current management. I recognize there has been a major shift here on this forum with regards to supporting Jim Benning and co. After running off the highs of taking Vegas to Game 7, the majority of fans on this forum still heavily supported Jim and co. Jim Benning slander was usually downvoted to oblivion and met with confrontation and disgust up until the 2020 offseason. Several people were downvoted or confronted for suggesting that the Canucks could a step back with limited cap space and several key players needing new contracts.

 

The turning point for myself was when Jim traded Bonino for Sutter: gave up arguably the better player on a cheaper contract, lost value in the draft pick exchange, proceeded to call Sutter a "foundational" player, signed him to a major extension without Sutter ever playing a single game for us. This was 6 years ago in 2015. This series of transactions raised major red flags for me and the subsequent moves after really sealed the deal - Jim Benning is the not the right guy for the job.

After an abysmal year from the Canucks, a terrible cap sheet, and an average/below-average prospect pool to look forward to, many have shifted their opinions and want to clean house. For those who still support management, can I ask why?

 

On a results basis: The Canucks have one of the worst records in the league since Benning took over, while spending to the cap every year. The Canucks have had one playoff round win in seven years. The Canucks are about to finish as a bottom tier team despite having our "core" pieces in place. Even BEFORE the Covid outbreak, the Canucks were unlikely to make the playoffs. Yes, Petterson has missed a lot of games, but every team has injuries. If you want to build a winning team, you need depth, depth and more depth. For those who look to Covid and the Petterson injury as excuses, why? We were bad before Covid and if your team relies on ONE guy to keep your season afloat, then your team is not very good to begin with.

 

On a process basis: If results were poor, but the process was defined and executed, I wouldn't even be mad. Jim and co have proven time and time again, that their really is no clear direction. Seven years in and there has never been consistent messaging or moves that aligned. This management truly operates on a day-to-day basis. How can a management team running a near billion dollar business have no consistent plan or long-term outlook? Are we re-building? Are we trying to be competitive? Are we re-tooling? Why give up assets to acquire Toffoli and then not offer a contract? Why give another aging forward (who's having a bad season) a 3 year extension with a flat cap? If we are trying to compete, why did we not ship out Virtanen in the offseason and use that money to keep a Tanev or a Toffoli? Virtanen was abysmal in the playoffs and barely played - it was clear that the fit wasn't there anymore.

 

On a relationship management basis: Jim and management have proven time and time again, that they do not work well with others and have the thinnest front office in the league. They have outed several talented individuals in the organization (Brackett, Linden, Gillman etc.). It was recently reported that Jim and Weisbroad pushed back on Courtnall being in an advisory role. It's clear that Jim and co do not want voices in the room and clearly want yes-men supporting their operation. It's now looking like Ian Clark won't even be re-signed, one of the most important coaches will not be retained this year - another talented member of the organization looking to be on the way out. Jim has and co have not been able to maintain a good relationship with the fans because of the constant inconsistent messaging and the amateur quotes like "day-to-day" and "run out of time".

 

On a transactions basis: This has been beaten to death and there's really no need to go over every transaction. Jim has made some good moves, but his negative transactions FAR outweigh in substance and quantity than the positive transactions. Most Jim supporters resort to his drafting ability as a get-out-of-jail card. Jim has been an above-average drafter for sure - he still missed big time on the Virtanen and Juolevi picks, setting this franchise back for years. So I can't really give Jim and A or an A+ in drafting. Despite his "above-average" drafting, his contracts and trades have mostly been below average to downright terrible.

 

Can I ask the management supporters, are you OK with Jim's "above-average" drafting ability to compensate all the other negatives he brings to the table? What's still giving you faith that Jim can still run this team successfully after 7 years of mostly failure? Are you willing to give Jim his 2 more years, for a 9 year plan? Most GMs never see 9 years or more unless they have delivered exceptional results - which Jim has definitely not done. Why not look to someone new for change? Why after 7 years, do you still want to run with this guy?

 

TLDR: I want to know why you still support the current management group. Why the patience? It's been 7 years now, why do we need to give him 2 more? We have a very large sample size to work with already. Why not seek someone new for a change?

 

Personally here's what I think is holding this team back.

Lou Eriksson contract

Beagle contract (although I like him he's overpaid for what he brings) 

Rooster contract

Sutter    same as beagle  

 

By the time that money is freed up our draft picks will be more developed. 

 

Now going back to when these players were signed who would you have signed instead? You need to answer that. Or do you think they would have signed for less pay and less term? If they weren't given those contracts I doubt they were here.

We didn't have players developed in the system so we were stuck with having to sign UFAs. 

During the Era of those sigings what other options would you say Jim Benning had? I'll need you to answer that because I must be missing something. 

It reminds me of the sh#tkicking Gillis took for the luong contract. Luongo would not have stayed here if his demands weren't met. He stayed here for money and term and that's that. And if MG had of let him walk he would have been shat on for that too.

Easy to make those deals as a fan.

 

I think the gms that are able to rebuild alot quicker are the ones who do a full tank right away and accumulate draft picks alot faster.

That was a mistake and I'm not sure who's fault that was.

The LE contract was a bad decision from the start. That one ill admit was plain dumb   

 

My assessment of Benning is that he's excellent at drafting. 

Hes average at everything else.

 

I like Fa as an owner. I think hed give his own nuts for this team.

However I'm not sure that translates into the idea that he should be having influence over managing decisions.

I'd fire green and give Benning two more years.  

I'm not a big Travis fan. 

[combover]

So “he drafts well” the goto excuse to not firing him again.shocking since it’s pretty much the only excuse left. 

pre Judd bracket - OJ JV so does he draft that good or is he taking credit for the great team of scouts he had two years after being hired and like so many player  let leave.

I guess it’s just a coincidence that after Judd was promoted the scouting department improved it before.  
 

Really some of the gaffs and lame excuses should have got him canned years ago. 
we weren’t a winning environment for the kids 

we didn’t complete the rebuild in 5 years

we didn’t stay competitive 

we were capped out 

we do have bad contracts ( more than one) 

we did let alot of players leave with no return 

we did over pay ufas 

We did throw away picks and  prospects for rentals when we weren’t a contender.

we won’t be much better next year 

 

the negatives far out way any of the positives

 

if he’s back next year owners best be prepared to hear “ fire Benning “ chants in the arena . 

I just don’t believe JB can get this team to the next level and we need someone who can or we’ll be the next Buffalo. 
JB is like gaudette. He just isn’t developing into the Gm we had hope for so a change of scenery would be best for both parties.

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnTavares]

Just now, gurn said:

What?

You are actually blaming Jim because Ollie got injured?       Wow.

I'm blaming JB because he picked the wrong guy. You can't use the Olli is injured excuse forever.

 

MT was a blue-chip first line forward on the board, and he went with a defenseman who had the luxury of playing with some of the best junior players (Finland WJC and London Knights) in his junior career.

[ShawnAntoski]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

How many years before Matthews is a UFA and leaves Toronto for Arizona?  Is it two?  

Good question but the media will spin it as a positive for the Laffs.  

[Dannydog]

4 hours ago, King Heffy said:

The vets were signed to avoid going full Edmonton and destroying prospects in roles they weren't able to handle.  The overpayments were necessary due to the team being bad, in a market with high taxes.  The success of the young players so early pulled the team back into contention quicker than expected, which made the contracts an issue. 

Exactly this

[JohnTavares]

Just now, combover said:

So “he drafts well” the goto excuse to not firing him again.shocking since it’s pretty much the only excuse left. 

pre Judd bracket - OJ JV so does he draft that good or is he taking credit for the great team of scouts he had two years after being hired and like so many player  let leave.

I guess it’s just a coincidence that after Judd was promoted the scouting department improved it before.  
 

Really some of the gaffs and lame excuses should have got him canned years ago. 
we weren’t a winning environment for the kids 

we didn’t complete the rebuild in 5 years

we didn’t stay competitive 

we were capped out 

we do have bad contracts ( more than one) 

we did let alot of players leave with no return 

we did over pay ufas 

We did throw away picks and  prospects for rentals when we weren’t a contender.

we won’t be much better next year 

 

the negatives far out way any of the positives

 

if he’s back next year owners best be prepared to hear “ fire Benning “ chants in the arena . 

I just don’t believe JB can get this team to the next level and we need someone who can or we’ll be the next Buffalo. 
JB is like gaudette. He just isn’t developing into the Gm we had hope for so a change of scenery would be best for both parties.

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It really is the go-to excuse.

He also whiffed on Juolevi and Virtanen, so how can he be this amazing draft guru?

He's a B+ drafting, maybe an A-

 

Everything else is a C.

How does he still have a job, and still have a lot of supporters?

[JohnTavares]

Just now, Dannydog said:

Exactly this

Nice. These vets really stopped the Canucks from being one of the worst teams in the past 7 years.

 

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

I'm blaming JB because he picked the wrong guy. You can't use the Olli is injured excuse forever.

 

MT was a blue-chip first line forward on the board, and he went with a defenseman who had the luxury of playing with some of the best junior players (Finland WJC and London Knights) in his junior career.

and OJ had nothing to do with those teams being so domnant.  I mean, what do dmen really do anyway?

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Good question but the media will spin it as a positive for the Laffs.  

Good point.  The Toronto media will blame Matthews for the team’s continued losing in round one of the playoffs.  

[4petesake]

5 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

Virtanen and Juolevi weren't whiffs at their respective positions?

 

How can this be an honest conversation when the Benning shills literally will defend him until they die? It's eerily similar to down south and Mr Trump.

You might as well just give up. We have hats and everything.

 

 

[ShawnAntoski]

13 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought this thread was “Honest Conversation...” 

JB wanted a center PLD and once he was gone turned to the other glaring need, defence. I had no problem with the idea that a defenceman was the best option for the team. Choosing Pettersson one year doesn’t make Jim a super scout and choosing Juolevi another year doesn’t make him terrible. 
 

Look at his whole body of work and if your not satisfied I have no problem with that. I am more than pleased with the team’s draft record under JB. I have some reservations about other aspects of the job he has done but I have yet to hear FA’s opinion. So I’ll wait.

Yeah, the OJ saga has just began and it seems to be right in line with the timeline when the team will be competitive and his cap hit is peanuts compared to a more established player in Tkadouche.  With all the fanfare with Tkadouche and all the overpayment for our FA's they are no better than us this season; at very least, we have prospects coming in - anyone care to bring up any of there prospects ?

 

Sidenote: this will be second time the Flakes will be drafting a Tkachuk at number 6 (different spelling) but sounds the same:  Daniel Tkaczuk in 1997.

Edited May 17, 2021 by ShawnAntoski