Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

Elias Pettersson | Quinn Hughes - Contract Discussion Thread

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

sad but true basically most the teams in the US will have a far easier time signing players to *below market* value because the net pay will be the same

Yes and no.   Quite a few teams in the US have jock and state tax that evens the playing field for some Canadian teams, and even within Canada there is a significant tax difference between Alberta and both ONT and Quebec provincially.   The teams that get the most net pay are TB, Miami, Vegas and soon the be Seattle.  Dallas is almost there too.   The Cali and NY teams are heavily taxed, to the point where the Alberta teams actually are better off.    Before Vegas at one point Vancouver was actually the 7th least taxed team in the league..not anymore.    I used to explain this when some posters thought we were at a tax disadvantage, at the time we were not, our taxes were on par with Alberta.    Now we are right there with the US high taxed teams and really not far from the most taxed either.   It's a small range 0-4% for the bulk of all the Canadian teams, and several US teams.  
 

The main difference is taking a team like TB/Vegas and figuring out what a team would have to pay to get the same net income on deals 5-12.5 million.   There is a reason Tavares got what he did in TO, first he turned down a 13 x 7 SJ offer.   Those teams are taxed close enough to the same.   Stamkos was also offered a monster deal in SJ and TO.  11 million.   For sure it appears at a glance he left a lot of money on the table but did he?  Let's look.  

 

First off he signed for one more year.   That's an extra 8.5 on the deal, 68 vs 77.    His overall net earnings is though is virtually identical (explained below) but he'd have to consider what he could make his last year somewhere else too.  Maybe 3 so bring that up to 80.

 

  80 million taxed in SJ or TO vs the 68 over the same period - plus a full NMC.    Well each year he saves 1.5 in taxes just on his 8.5 deal, times that by 8 years you get 12 million lol.   So guess what.... his deal, as is, in TB, without the clauses added which for sure brings the cap down a little, is virtually the exact same net pay as taking the 7 year deal offered in TO and assuming he'd still be able to play one more year at 3. 

 

I see this all the time with "team friendly deals".    AP.   He got exactly what he wanted too.   Saves 500k a year net.   St. Louis would have to offer him at least 9 to keep up or an extra year or something (MTL, TO and VAN would have offer 10!)...

Just to be perfectly clear the most taxed teams in Canada includes Vancouver now.   The difference between a 8.5 contract in Vancouver and MTL is 855$ a year.   The difference in Alberta is 450k.   So there is a range even within our own country.   However the difference between us and most US states is 450-1.4.    BC used to be like Alberta but NDP,  you get what you vote for.  

 

Bottom line is now the Canucks are what i used to say we were not, which is one of the highest taxed teams. At 8.5 - 53%.   Wow.  Used to be 47.79.    CALi teams are 49.59.   47.6 is Alberta.   TB is 36.58% ... that's 16.42% more take home pay, based on 8.5.   Gavin group has a tax calculator - google it and have some fun.  

 

For sure tax is a consideration for these guys.   Nice to be paid in US currency too. 

 

Edit.   JB gets a ton of flak when his deals are compared to other.   Keep in mind once you get up to a million plus, your in the max bracket.   Pearson's deal for example, in Vegas would look pretty awesome at 528 less right?   Or how about BB at a cool 928k less?   4.9 x 3.    Or how about Myers at 5 x 5 instead?  

 

EP 7.5 x 3 in Vancouver ... or Vegas/TB/Seattle/FLD/ 6.2 x 3.... AHO at 8.5 in MTL is like 7.55 in CAR...sure he was happy to see that offer sheet! 

Edited by IBatch
  • Hydration 2
  • Burr 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Does winning mean enough to EP & QH to sign for less so that Vancouver can use that CAP to build a true contender? They are a couple of young guys who have not had the super big paydays yet. They have professional management who are undoubtedly advising them to get max $'s as careers can end on the next shift. Agents who talk about the lucrative endorsement deals available in the USA. 

 

Why would they opt for a home town discount? Team chemistry? Both Horvat and BB have arguably signed for less than market. Demko did a reasonable deal. But for Covid this past season one might think the team unity could be stronger. IMO there are lots of examples in the NHL which shows what happens with the top players wring as much CAP as possible. The Laffers and Minny come to mind. A player can sign a huge, long term deal, but end up on a CAP crippled team that will never afford to ice a truly competitive team. Hopefully JB points that out.    

  • Hydration 1
  • Vintage 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol turn around in a year or 2 and target their rfa with what cap lol? boeser and horvat about to be rfa and ufa and u really think we have any cap space left after signing petterson and hughes to target anything worth while still having a competitive team?

Ya man I do, its called making other trades and not keeping every single player and giving everyone a new contract with a big raise. But keep thinking this team is screwed forever instead...

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Boudrias said:

Does winning mean enough to EP & QH to sign for less so that Vancouver can use that CAP to build a true contender? They are a couple of young guys who have not had the super big paydays yet. They have professional management who are undoubtedly advising them to get max $'s as careers can end on the next shift. Agents who talk about the lucrative endorsement deals available in the USA. 

 

Why would they opt for a home town discount? Team chemistry? Both Horvat and BB have arguably signed for less than market. Demko did a reasonable deal. But for Covid this past season one might think the team unity could be stronger. IMO there are lots of examples in the NHL which shows what happens with the top players wring as much CAP as possible. The Laffers and Minny come to mind. A player can sign a huge, long term deal, but end up on a CAP crippled team that will never afford to ice a truly competitive team. Hopefully JB points that out.    

I believe both guys will definitely take less to help build a winner.  Like you point out Bo, Bess, Miller are very team friendly contracts.  All signed while guys were RFAs.  It’s the RFA contracts Toto players that are key to building a good enough support group to compete.  I see both Petey and Quinn taking shorter term bridge deals (3-4 years) to keep their cap costs down.  It will be 12-13 million total instead of 17-20.  That 5 to 7 million means (and the players know this) better support for them.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Alflives said:

I believe both guys will definitely take less to help build a winner.  Like you point out Bo, Bess, Miller are very team friendly contracts.  All signed while guys were RFAs.  It’s the RFA contracts Toto players that are key to building a good enough support group to compete.  I see both Petey and Quinn taking shorter term bridge deals (3-4 years) to keep their cap costs down.  It will be 12-13 million total instead of 17-20.  That 5 to 7 million means (and the players know this) better support for them.  

Look at the contrast between the NYI and the Bolts. The NYI had the CAP that allowed them to add a couple of players at the TDL. I think this registers with a player like Barzal. Even the Habs are pretty good that way. 

  • Like 1
  • Vintage 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Alflives said:

No team with even one 10 million dollar contract has won the Cup.  Leafs have three.  They are dead until those contracts are done, or the cap gets north of 90 mil.  

This is cutting it close, but Pens had Malkin at $9.5 million and Caps had Ovie at $9.5 mil.

 

But I understand and agree with this point.

 

Ideally I look at a team structured like the Islanders cap wise. Your stars taking $7 mil, your top six in the $4-6 mil range, and the quality depth at $1-3 mil. (Anthony Beauvillier at $2.1 mil!!)

 

  • Hydration 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol turn around in a year or 2 and target their rfa with what cap lol? boeser and horvat about to be rfa and ufa and u really think we have any cap space left after signing petterson and hughes to target anything worth while still having a competitive team?

You’re out to lunch. 
 

capfriendly.com 

 

We are one of the best positioned teams in terms of cap after this season. 
 

While you are at it take a look at some other teams. Let me know how good Montreal or Minny or Philly or Kings or San Jose situation is going forward. 
 

In other words look at the whole league instead of hyper focusing on the Canucks for a better perspective. 

  • Hydration 2
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/20/2021 at 10:43 AM, Boudrias said:

Look at the contrast between the NYI and the Bolts. The NYI had the CAP that allowed them to add a couple of players at the TDL. I think this registers with a player like Barzal. Even the Habs are pretty good that way. 

The Habs.   Most taxed team in the entire league.   Vancouver is just as close really, thx to the NDP (not true during the Sedin era, team was around 7th LEAST taxed team, but we are now).   Bergevin.   He was a great teammate and a decent player ...  he's hit the sweet spot this year.    Price is a guy who just is lying in wait to do his thing.   Reminds me of Grant Furh the ultimate money goalie.   Or Billy Smith.   Bergevin should maybe win GM of the year, but if he doesn't shouldn't be sad, Lou is a monster team builder.   Guys way way ahead of anyone else and probably would give Einstein a run for his money.   Used to use an entire wall in his office, with every single NHL player under contract  on cue cards on his wall.  Who does that?   JB doesn't lol neither does anyone else.  Guys got a massive brain.   First thing he does is sign the best coach available who also happens to be one of the best of his era.   Said this a dozen times, how does a team go from the worst goals against, in the entire league, lose Tavares one of the best C's in the game, and end up one of the best defensive teams with the same roster?  Starting to think Trotz had a lot to do with Weber, Suter, Josi et all.    Trotz is the best NHL coach in the league and maybe he's been the best for a lot longer then we've realized.   Crazy.   Here is hoping a MTL vs NYI final.   Nice to see things go full circle 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, IBatch said:

The Habs.   Most taxed team in the entire league.   Vancouver is just as close really, thx to the NDP (not true during the Sedin era, team was around 7th LEAST taxed team, but we are now).   Bergevin.   He was a great teammate and a decent player ...  he's hit the sweet spot this year.    Price is a guy who just is lying in wait to do his thing.   Reminds me of Grant Furh the ultimate money goalie.   Or Billy Smith.   Bergevin should maybe win GM of the year, but if he doesn't shouldn't be sad, Lou is a monster team builder.   Guys way way ahead of anyone else and probably would give Einstein a run for his money.   Used to use an entire wall in his office, with every single NHL player under contract  on cue cards on his wall.  Who does that?   JB doesn't lol neither does anyone else.  Guys got a massive brain.   First thing he does is sign the best coach available who also happens to be one of the best of his era.   Said this a dozen times, how does a team go from the worst goals against, in the entire league, lose Tavares one of the best C's in the game, and end up one of the best defensive teams with the same roster?  Starting to think Trotz had a lot to do with Weber, Suter, Josi et all.    Trotz is the best NHL coach in the league and maybe he's been the best for a lot longer then we've realized.   Crazy.   Here is hoping a MTL vs NYI final.   Nice to see things go full circle 

Funny thing is, everyone expected Bergevin to be fired multiple times over the past 2 seasons. 

 

Benning needs a few good moves and our young prospects to step up to save his ass.  

 

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/20/2021 at 8:45 AM, DSVII said:

This is cutting it close, but Pens had Malkin at $9.5 million and Caps had Ovie at $9.5 mil.

 

But I understand and agree with this point.

 

Ideally I look at a team structured like the Islanders cap wise. Your stars taking $7 mil, your top six in the $4-6 mil range, and the quality depth at $1-3 mil. (Anthony Beauvillier at $2.1 mil!!)

 

yeah it's a bad take when you account for the salary cap. pretty much every team that's won has had a $10MM player or multiple lol

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/21/2021 at 8:26 PM, Tom Sestito said:

yeah it's a bad take when you account for the salary cap. pretty much every team that's won has had a $10MM player or multiple lol

Im pretty sure the Habs are the first team to get out of round one with a 10 million dollar player.  A team, like the LOSER LEAFS, with three 11 million dollar contracts is dead - especially during this flat cap era.

 

Edited by Alflives
Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

Friedman needs to stop with the speculation.

 

He knows that all three of them think they’re worth more than Chabot? Somehow I doubt that.

 

I’m not sure they’re willing to go more than 8 mil for Hughes. If that’s the case a smaller bridge deal is the better option. He hasn’t proven he’s an 8 million dollar defenseman yet.

  • Hydration 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Im pretty sure the Habs are the first team to get out of round one with a 10 million dollar player.  A team, like the LOSER LEAFS, with three 11 million dollar contracts is dead - especially during this flat cap era.

 

If you adjust for salary cap, basically every team except the blues has had a $10MM player lol

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/21/2021 at 2:12 PM, IBatch said:

The Habs.   Most taxed team in the entire league.   Vancouver is just as close really, thx to the NDP (not true during the Sedin era, team was around 7th LEAST taxed team, but we are now).   Bergevin.   He was a great teammate and a decent player ...  he's hit the sweet spot this year.    Price is a guy who just is lying in wait to do his thing.   Reminds me of Grant Furh the ultimate money goalie.   Or Billy Smith.   Bergevin should maybe win GM of the year, but if he doesn't shouldn't be sad, Lou is a monster team builder.   Guys way way ahead of anyone else and probably would give Einstein a run for his money.   Used to use an entire wall in his office, with every single NHL player under contract  on cue cards on his wall.  Who does that?   JB doesn't lol neither does anyone else.  Guys got a massive brain.   First thing he does is sign the best coach available who also happens to be one of the best of his era.   Said this a dozen times, how does a team go from the worst goals against, in the entire league, lose Tavares one of the best C's in the game, and end up one of the best defensive teams with the same roster?  Starting to think Trotz had a lot to do with Weber, Suter, Josi et all.    Trotz is the best NHL coach in the league and maybe he's been the best for a lot longer then we've realized.   Crazy.   Here is hoping a MTL vs NYI final.   Nice to see things go full circle 

Article 16 of the Canada-US tax treaty is helpful for the re-signing of Boeser, Hughes, and Miller, at least. Signing bonuses paid by a Canadian team to a US resident are taxed at a flat 15% (see the bonus structure of Matthews' contract). Loading up their contracts with signing bonuses can be a significant tax advantage with cross-boarder players. Unfortunately, it won't help with our Canadian or European players.   

Edited by MattJVD
  • Hydration 1
  • Vintage 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/16/2021 at 9:55 PM, wallstreetamigo said:

I have a feeling there will be some good contracts signed there. I mean, i kind of hope not but my gut says there will be a few team friendly deals.

So why do you think there will be team friendly deals with Colorado but not Vancouver?  Every team other than Seattle is in the same boat right now, pretty much everybody is up against it in cap space with their own FA or RFAs that they need to sign.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

So why do you think there will be team friendly deals with Colorado but not Vancouver?  Every team other than Seattle is in the same boat right now, pretty much everybody is up against it in cap space with their own FA or RFAs that they need to sign.

The fact that Hughes apparently wants a deal north of 5 years and EP wants 5 years or less tells me those will not be significant team friendly deals. It sure looks like they are trying to cash in now on Hughes in the event his defensive game does not evolve the way the Canucks need it to. EP looks like he wants a deal that takes him to UFA status or that will mean a huge qualifying offer at the end.

 

Sakic has been great at getting players at very good value. History alone vs Benning suggests Sakic is more likely to get team friendly deals.

 

Like with almost everything to do with Benning, I hope I am wrong.

  • RoughGame 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Friedman needs to stop with the speculation.

 

He knows that all three of them think they’re worth more than Chabot? Somehow I doubt that.

 

I’m not sure they’re willing to go more than 8 mil for Hughes. If that’s the case a smaller bridge deal is the better option. He hasn’t proven he’s an 8 million dollar defenseman yet.

No way should the Canucks give Hughes a Chabot contract at this point. 8 mil long term for a completely one dimensional player is a bad idea.

 

I would trade him for a true #1 dman or a package of core age young players including an offensive dman before I would lock him up for that much. He has to show he can be more than a pp/offensive specialist first and can grow defensively.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

No way should the Canucks give Hughes a Chabot contract at this point. 8 mil long term for a completely one dimensional player is a bad idea.

 

I would trade him for a true #1 dman or a package of core age young players including an offensive dman before I would lock him up for that much. He has to show he can be more than a pp/offensive specialist first and can grow defensively.

Yeah you’re in the 1% of canuck fans that thinks its a good idea to trade hughes. Good thing nobody listens. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...