Reflections from the newest developments

[Fred65]

7 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

Right. 

 

Except we have a bunch of guys who aren't responsible for that so maybe let's watch and see what happens with them in the line up?  Don't pin a history of failure on guys like Hoggy, Rathbone, Podkolzin...even Quinn, Petey, Brock, Demko, Bo.   They don't even have "a history" yet.

Correct but the fan (or many fans ) who do the judging do I'm sure many players are doing their best but it hasn't produced succes and after all success is the yard stick

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Fred65 said:

No this is bad, it demonstrates how we've failed  and there for garnered so many top picks.

 

Alfie, This is the play by play for the last 7 years

1) we can turn this team around quickly. 2014

2) we're going to rebuild 2017

3) we're going to buy out our problems and errors in past judgement. 2021

 

As to your post over success for  the next decade, believe it or not many fans don't have another decade to judge  

 

 

Nope.  It’s good.  Go back and review successfully rebuilt teams.  They draft top 12 for 7-10 years.  Only Pittsburgh was shorter at six years.  Of course they got Sid and Gino in back to back drafts though.  

[-DLC-]

2 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Correct but the fan (or many fans ) who do the judging do I'm sure many players are doing their best but it hasn't produced succes and after all success is the yard stick

So you want them to instantly find success?

 

They did ok in the playoffs last year...better than teams expected to be there who've had a kick at the can longer.

 

Do we not have measured expectations and allow that to unfold?  If your yard stick only measures success but you don't use math to calculate how the schedule, losing Petey and a COVID variant changed the equation this year, that's not a good indicator.   Put any team in this situation and they, too, may have struggled to find success.  Don't assess the team on something that set them up to fail....they need to be measured fairly.

[Fred65]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

No rule says that a team’s most important players (drafted during the rebuild) come from top three picks. It’s, like you say, having great scouts picking the right guys.  Bess, Petey, and Hughes are excellent.  Demko too.  Imo Podkolzin will be in that group too, of great players selected outside of the top three.  Bone was fourth round.  We missed on Jake and OJ, but guys like Hoglanderand Bone cover those misses.  

Add McCann that's three 1st round picks blown. I agree that some subsequent later picks have come through, likely Demko is the top of that list, but, it remains a fact first round picks are the logical building blocks

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think some of us mix up love for our team and entertainment.  Your post is entertaining; it’s funny.  Sure we fans will disagree about how the team is managed and coached.  That’s what fans do.  But having fun while doing that is the whole point, no?  If some fans want to be super negative about the team’s direction, that’s their choice.  I think we have a really exciting young core, and can be a top team for the next decade.  

Are you watching the playoffs at all? Did you watch Canucks and Vegas last year? That was men playing against boys, these young core you speak of as skilled as they are are too small for playoffs, they not going to grow anymore, they might fill out, well they have to if they want a chance at a cup one day. Or are they just going to rely on a goalie every year to carry them everywhere they go? Take the hits, take the injuries, as long as our goalie bails us out of all the time I guess things will be great, will continue acquiring more small skilled players who aren't suited for playoffs just suited for regular season, and rely on the goalie for the playoffs. Good luck there.

 

 

[Fred65]

2 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

So you want them to instantly find success?

 

They did ok in the playoffs last year...better than teams expected to be there who've had a kick at the can longer.

 

Do we not have measured expectations and allow that to unfold?  If your yard stick only measures success but you don't use math to calculate how the schedule, losing Petey and a COVID variant changed the equation this year, that's not a good indicator.   Put any team in this situation and they, too, may have struggled to find success.  Don't assess the team on something that set them up to fail....they need to be measured fairly.

Please no more excuses. Every team has hurdles to overcome we're not alone. We ( Canucks ) have had 7 years to sort this out and Covid is the reason for failure. Yes success is the yard stick and we hsould keep that in mind, no more excuses

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Fred65 said:

Add McCann that's three 1st round picks blown. I agree that some subsequent later picks have come through, likely Demko is the top of that list, but, it remains a fact first round picks are the logical building blocks

Again go review other teams’, who are successful recently, draft records during their rebuilds.  They all have top ten misses.  Heck the Hawks missed on ?Cam Barker (2OA) and Jack Skille 8OA.  They made up for those misses with picks after round one.  That’s what ?Benning’s has done for us too.  We have some good young prospects who are now just emerging.  

[ShawnAntoski]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

No rule says that a team’s most important players (drafted during the rebuild) come from top three picks. It’s, like you say, having great scouts picking the right guys.  Bess, Petey, and Hughes are excellent.  Demko too.  Imo Podkolzin will be in that group too, of great players selected outside of the top three.  Bone was fourth round.  We missed on Jake and OJ, but guys like Hoglanderand Bone cover those misses.  

Yeah, no guarantees in life but a big percentage of generational/impactful players are drafted in the top 3 but as I’ve stated before the overall talent of a particular draft has to be highly considered when discussing these topics.   Good take - hope JB continues his draft mojo !

[ShawnAntoski]

14 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Please no more excuses. Every team has hurdles to overcome we're not alone. We ( Canucks ) have had 7 years to sort this out and Covid is the reason for failure. Yes success is the yard stick and we hsould keep that in mind, no more excuses

Yeah, the yearly results are abysmal - other than watching JBs’ draft hits and anxiously waiting on them to take the team to a future cup, the results has so far been what it is; but as a few had stated the ink is dry & our whining are very much like being a backseat driver - just be supportive cause it takes time & they are professionals.  

Still hopeful as a long time fan, for this (mostly young) core to deliver - pls while I still have some years left !  Since 2014-2015

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[Fred65]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Again go review other teams’, who are successful recently, draft records during their rebuilds.  They all have top ten misses.  Heck the Hawks missed on ?Cam Barker (2OA) and Jack Skille 8OA.  They made up for those misses with picks after round one.  That’s what ?Benning’s has done for us too.  We have some good young prospects who are now just emerging.  

I posted this earlier and I suspect you missed it

 

Ranking the Last Decade of NHL Draft Results (thehockeywriters.com)

 

Vcr was ranked 29th O/A it ran from 2008 -2017 I know that's not current but does include three years of Benning drafting. In his first 3 years of drafting ( 4 selections ) JB drafted Virtanen, McCann, Boeser & Juolevi.

[Alflives]

11 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Are you watching the playoffs at all? Did you watch Canucks and Vegas last year? That was men playing against boys, these young core you speak of as skilled as they are are too small for playoffs, they not going to grow anymore, they might fill out, well they have to if they want a chance at a cup one day. Or are they just going to rely on a goalie every year to carry them everywhere they go? Take the hits, take the injuries, as long as our goalie bails us out of all the time I guess things will be great, will continue acquiring more small skilled players who aren't suited for playoffs just suited for regular season, and rely on the goalie for the playoffs. Good luck there.

 

 

Like you said the young core guys will fill out.  Our top guys are really young, and will be a lot stronger in a couple years.  Bo will be 27/28.  The timing is actually very good.  

[ShawnAntoski]

1 hour ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Are you watching the playoffs at all? Did you watch Canucks and Vegas last year? That was men playing against boys, these young core you speak of as skilled as they are are too small for playoffs, they not going to grow anymore, they might fill out, well they have to if they want a chance at a cup one day. Or are they just going to rely on a goalie every year to carry them everywhere they go? Take the hits, take the injuries, as long as our goalie bails us out of all the time I guess things will be great, will continue acquiring more small skilled players who aren't suited for playoffs just suited for regular season, and rely on the goalie for the playoffs. Good luck there.

 

 

Ink is dry - enjoy the Green & Friends Show for the next few years and with different cast members but the same script (hopefully not)

Edited May 22, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Like you said the young core guys will fill out.  Our top guys are really young, and will be a lot stronger in a couple years.  Bo will be 27/28.  The timing is actually very good.  

I don't see EP filling out as strong as Bo not a chance, Hughes not a chance, Hoglander wont be as big and strong as Horvat, will be gritty but not strong enough. Brock gets shoved a lot, he needs to bulk up to hold his ground so he can stay healthy and snipe if he works out with Horvat then he might have a chance. Still not enough. 

[bree2]

20 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Are you watching the playoffs at all? Did you watch Canucks and Vegas last year? That was men playing against boys, these young core you speak of as skilled as they are are too small for playoffs, they not going to grow anymore, they might fill out, well they have to if they want a chance at a cup one day. Or are they just going to rely on a goalie every year to carry them everywhere they go? Take the hits, take the injuries, as long as our goalie bails us out of all the time I guess things will be great, will continue acquiring more small skilled players who aren't suited for playoffs just suited for regular season, and rely on the goalie for the playoffs. Good luck there.

 

 

did you watch last year where the Leafs and the oilers and the Blues went out in the first rounds and the Canucks survived, even if our goalie carried us , he is part of the team. have you heard McDavid whining this year about getting shut out, just because he had a good regular season  but is sucking in the playoffs now. it happens. 

[wallstreetamigo]

48 minutes ago, zimmy said:

To hope JB will ever be able to articulate in the manner that you wish is foolish. In the role of communicator (or politician) he is, and always has been, ill suited.
 

Having already set in my mind that the two would be back (and feeling okay about this), my ultimate hope was that a new president of hockey ops was going to be named who could fulfill the role of the community “fluffer”. He would smoothly keep the masses satisfied that management had a vision and then help educate them on what they should be keeping an eye on. Someone not only to divert attention from the front liners, but skilled enough and with enough of a resume (chops) to win back some of the respect the team might have lost throughout this regime.

 

if my faith in this team is misplaced then so be it but it is a faith based on a belief that coaches, like players and managers, can evolve and change despite appearances to the contrary. Bringing all the coaches back (and we don’t know of this eventuality) is an act that engenders hope, at least for me. I’m glad you share that hope.

 

 

To me, the difference between a hater and a criticical fan lies in the level of objectivity they have and also the ability to hope for the best but fear the worst.

 

Thats the kind of fan I feel I am.

 

I dont wish for them to fail. Just the opposite.

 

I do feel like Green and the team could be much more effective next year with an experienced associate coach to run the defense (the Rick Bowness to AV scenario if you will) and a new special teams coach as well. 

 

I am ok with Green being back as I have said before. I think he has been ok. A part of the problem but not the main problem if that makes sense. 

 

The team Benning has put together is a bigger problem. But the strategies and style of the team by the coaches are an ill fit for the group of players.

 

This is not a dump and chase team or a passive d team of players. They look and play much better when they are aggressive. The style needs to change along with the perssonel imo.

 

 

 

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

6 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Ink is dry - enjoy the Green and crew Show with a different cast members but the same script (hopefully not)

I don't think I'm going to enjoy anything, I'm done drinking the fairy dust here. Thinking everything is peachy and fine and being sold on this group as being built to win down the road which is complete crap, I'm not buying that crap anymore. I was suckered into believing Willie Desjardins was not good, but when a coach like Green comes in and is actually worse and you have the owner of the team saying he has shown improvements every year, that's when I say enough of the kool-aid these clowns are clueless.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

6 minutes ago, bree2 said:

did you watch last year where the Leafs and the oilers and the Blues went out in the first rounds and the Canucks survived, even if our goalie carried us , he is part of the team. have you heard McDavid whining this year about getting shut out, just because he had a good regular season  but is sucking in the playoffs now. it happens. 

Even if our goaltending carried us 

 

Thank you.

[ShawnAntoski]

3 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

I don't think I'm going to enjoy anything, I'm done drinking the fairy dust here. Thinking everything is peachy and fine and being sold on this group as being built to win down the road which is complete crap, I'm not buying that crap anymore. I was suckered into believing Willie Desjardins was not good, but when a coach like Green comes in and is actually worse and you have the owner of the team saying he has shown improvements every year, that's when I say enough of the kool-aid these clowns are clueless.

Yeah, proof is the pudding 

Team record under Green and Friends tutelage (except Clark cause his goaltenders is probably a good reason why it is not as bad) 

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=2023

 

 

[spook007]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

You make some valid points, but I have to laugh at the bolded here. Not sure why you are cheering for the Canucks then, based on what you said. The Canucks have rarely won more than they've lost, overall. I do not cheer for them because they are a perennially winning team. I cheer for them because they were the team I watched growing up. For me, I have a sense of loyalty towards the team, even if there are parts that I can be critical about. Stating you "have no time for failure" while claiming to be a Canucks fan is just hilarious.

Key word....

Nothing more nothing less... Never understood fans, who felt they can pick and choose...

[wallstreetamigo]

1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said:

He explained what happened....he talks to Bo regularly and had just done so.  Two team doctors and a PA and NHL doctor were all working behind the scenes, but were  still going on "COVID" (10 day) protocol as the variant had not yet surfaced.  They didn't know what they were dealing with until...they did.  The variant was something new and it changed the goalposts.   Clearly, it was a fast burning fire.

 

He also explained, for those who do listen, that the team was practicing when symptoms started to really hit the team (excruciating migraines, etc.) and things happened fairly fast and furious. This was presented to the league (doctor) when they came out with the schedule that was clearly not going to be manageable.  It was revised and Miller speaking out wasn't because the team wasn't doing anything, he spoke out because...he's Miller.  But things were in the works as doctors were monitoring what was happening.  Just because that isn't disclosed doesn't mean...it isn't happening.  Come on, these are the team's assets.  Because a team isn't running to the media to disclose what's transpiring, doesn't mean they're not handling it.  They were...busy?  Consulting WITH the experts and trying to determine what they were dealing with and what to do about it.  

 

Bottom line is, if the team isn't happy with management they're big boys and will address that.  JT Miller does NOT need anyone going to bat for him...I'm pretty confident about that.  He'll handle his stuff.

 

It got translated to "the team isn't happy with management" when Miller spoke but likely was more just a matter of Miller being Miller.  Wearing his heart on his sleeve.   He was speaking out against the schedule but that doesn't mean others weren't also doing so.  It seems they were, as it was changed.

 

I'm not sure you know how PR works....GM's/coaches/etc. often shut down a bunch of screaming as it's happening out in the masses - they don't really give explanations that will just be twisted and contorted anyhow.  They're trying to move forward, not stay stuck.  He answers in a fairly direct, honest way from what I see and hear.

PR is a huge part of my job. There are ways to answer and even sugar voat things that presents confidence and there are ways (like Bennings approach) that only opens him up to the perception he has his head in the sand.

 

Covid had a big impact. But what people fail to recognize is it was largely a self inflicted wound. Management made the decision to allow a player or players with covid to practice while awaiting covid test results. Thats not an accident outside their control, its a breach of set protocols and a conscious decision to cut corners.

 

The reason the Canucks had a far worse outbreak than any other team has nothing to do with a different variant, and as highly paid medical people and management in a billion dollar business it is probably reasonable to expect they would have had prior knowledge about different variants.

 

They had the worst outbreak because of their own decisions.

 

I know for a fact several players were and remain very pissed off at being subjected to an avoidable risk like that. People can believe the players are totally fine with it but some definitely arent.