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The only possible redeeming feature of some people's posts is, they are unlikely to be kicking their dog; after laying their bile down on the interwebs.

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6 minutes ago, gurn said:

The only possible redeeming feature of some people's posts is, they are unlikely to be kicking their dog; after laying their bile down on the interwebs.

 

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14 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Those two games out of the Covid outbreak were good.  Our boys dominated the Loser Leafs for two wins. It was only the Loser Leafs though, but still our boys were good in those two.  

those two games really exposed the Leaves for what they are. So there's that. 

 

Culture matters. Yes results are nice, but rebuilding is a processes. And now cue 7 years.... blah... blah...

 

I loved the no-quit attitude, personally. Podz will fit right in. 

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20 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

And you dont agree they played like garbage most of the season?

 

You should watch other teams play then to have a basis for comparison. 

 

I am a fan too. I am just one who can admit when the team plays terribly.

Seemed to me, that there were three parts to the season.

The first 3rd, where they were abysmal, and relatively healthy .They pretty much sunk themselves out of a playoff spot, right off the bat. I have no explanation why this happened.

 

The second 3rd, where Demko finally proved that he was the #1 goalie, and the team started playing a more cohesive game. They clawed their way to close to .500 before their COVID outbreak

 

The third 3rd, where they were barely hanging on in some games due to post COVID exhaustion, and played out the garbage time.

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2 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

Seemed to me, that there were three parts to the season.

The first 3rd, where they were abysmal, and relatively healthy .They pretty much sunk themselves out of a playoff spot, right off the bat. I have no explanation why this happened.

I put this on the coaches somewhat. They didn't have the guys properly prepared. Maybe thats not fair, but its also true to some degree. 

 

2 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

 

The second 3rd, where Demko finally proved that he was the #1 goalie, and the team started playing a more cohesive game. They clawed their way to close to .500 before their COVID outbreak

 

The third 3rd, where they were barely hanging on in some games due to post COVID exhaustion, and played out the garbage time.

 

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2 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

Seemed to me, that there were three parts to the season.

The first 3rd, where they were abysmal, and relatively healthy .They pretty much sunk themselves out of a playoff spot, right off the bat. I have no explanation why this happened.

 

34 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I put this on the coaches somewhat. They didn't have the guys properly prepared. Maybe thats not fair, but its also true to some degree. 

 

Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

-We have a bunch of inexperienced, green kids driving the bus on our team in a completely abnormal Covid year.

 

-We had a lot of roster turnover with a lot of new faces coming in to some pretty key positions (1B starter, Hughes partner, #2-3 2 way hard minute D)

 

-Right off the bat we were missing key, stabilizing vets in Miller and Benn and a one year rusty Hamonic (who would soon also be missing to injury). Followed by injuries to Pettersson, Beagle, Sutter and Motte (the latter of whom were helping stabilize what little consistent play we did have, early in the season).

 

All that shoe horned in to a gong show season start with no preseason and little to no practice or rest/recovery time for the first. month for sale those young kids/new guys. Add no real off ice team bonding because of Covid for all these new guys to get to know eachother or young guys to gel and perhaps start to fill some of the leadership vacuum of guys like Markstrom and Tanev leaving...

 

And that's before the league's worst Covid outbreak...

 

You probably couldn't write a worse series ofb unfortunate events for a hockey team, if you tried.

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8 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

 

Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

-We have a bunch of inexperienced, green kids driving the bus on our team in a completely abnormal Covid year.

 

-We had a lot of roster turnover with a lot of new faces coming in to some pretty key positions (1B starter, Hughes partner, #2-3 2 way hard minute D)

 

-Right off the bat we were missing key, stabilizing vets in Miller and Benn and a one year rusty Hamonic (who would soon also be missing to injury). Followed by injuries to Pettersson, Beagle, Sutter and Motte (the latter of whom were helping stabilize what little consistent play we did have, early in the season).

 

All that shoe horned in to a gong show season start with no preseason and little to no practice or rest/recovery time for the first. month for sale those young kids/new guys. Add no real off ice team bonding because of Covid for all these new guys to get to know eachother or young guys to gel and perhaps start to fill some of the leadership vacuum of guys like Markstrom and Tanev leaving...

 

And that's before the league's worst Covid outbreak...

 

You probably couldn't write a worse series ofb unfortunate events for a hockey team, if you tried.

I hear you on all of that, I just felt like the guys seemed like they were really out of sync with each other to start the year. I get that next to no practice time is a big part of that but other teams managed to survive changes better, and all of that was pre-covid. With regard to just the first 15 games, I thought the coaches could have done more to get everyone on the same page. Maybe thats unfair, not sure. 

 

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3 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I hear you on all of that, I just felt like the guys seemed like they were really out of sync with each other to start the year. I get that next to no practice time is a big part of that but other teams managed to survive changes better, and all of that was pre-covid. With regard to just the first 15 games, I thought the coaches could have done more to get everyone on the same page. Maybe thats unfair, not sure. 

 

Bunch of new guys. Kids with little experience driving the bus. No Miller to start...all of whom had no preseason and then out of the gate with arguably the worst schedule in the league for a month, with no practice or rest time.

 

Not really a recipe for a good start.

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15 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Bunch of new guys. Kids with little experience driving the bus. No Miller to start...all of whom had no preseason and then out of the gate with arguably the worst schedule in the league for a month, with no practice or rest time.

 

Not really a recipe for a good start.

no, its not. I'd like to think that Green could have found a way to coach a couple more wins out of the start of the season but maybe I'm being unrealistic. 

 

Doesn't matter, covid would have decimated a slightly better start anyway.

 

Pretty encouraged by the coaching staff moves, and who might fall to us at 9. I'd be pretty happy with any of McTavish, Wallsted, Hughes, Clarke. 

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8 hours ago, IBatch said:

LOL.   Don't get it do you.   We are stakeholders, and as a fan there is a level of edicate, responsibility etc thats required.  A certain amount of parenting, enforcing, whatever is ok within the fanbase - could you imagine how much fun this site would be if everyone acted just like you do?    Say "they played poorly" or "not well" or  "badly", but calling my team garbage gets my hackles up every time.    

 

At this point if you don't get it, several have called you out on this behaviour, your either a fan of a different team trolling us, or just don't get it (yet). I get frustrations and being a fan of this team comes with it's fair share of that, but there is a difference between venting during the GDT, and constant be-littlement, covert and overt invalidation of everything the GM, coaches and or players have done. 

 

Grow up or something - at least consider your position, it often comes across as outright trolling.   I don't have to put you on ignore.   But maybe that's were you should be.   It's ok to not agree with JB. Or the coach.   But don't call them garbage anymore is all i'm asking.   So disrespectful, they all played their hearts out for us for the most part, under difficult circumstances.   Choose your reply wisely.   Mute button.   2288 and you both have a shameful outlook.   At least Dumb Nuck uses humour to get his point across, even casual fans understand we didn't have a good season (plus i like Dumb Nuck - he's never crossed any line).    Seasons  can't and won't all be good ones it's the way hockey is these days.   Hiding behind "high standards" doesn't make it better either.   Anyone calling my team garbage at a sports bar...well i've seen how that can go.   Easy to hide behind a keyboard,  just feel lucky we aren't talking in real life.  Still this is an olive branch - stop calling my team garbage and have a civil, logical dialogue and be nicer to our team.    Bieksa would have knocked you out faster then he did Fedor, i'm actually doing you a kindness.   One day I hope you understand.   If you want to be heard and not either ignored by the majority, including ones that have the same viewpoint but don't agree with your methods,  or out right banned.   Consider it.    As far as i'm concerned if you keep it up you are not a fan of this team, your acting like an enemy. 

I said they PLAYED LIKE GARBAGE, not that they WERE GARBAGE.

 

Maybe you were too busy trying to be an internet tough guy (while also hiding behind a keyboard btw) to notice the difference. Its always interesting to see people tell others to grow up while acting like an idiot themselves. If you were standing next to me I would say the exact same things. If you attacked me for it I have a feeling that would be a very stupid decision by you. 

 

So, thanks for the threat and warning but I think I will just keep posting my opinions however I feel like it. 

 

If Bieksa wants to beat me up for it, I'm game. I wouldnt mind a big bag of cash right now. I think he probably likes his bank account and media job the way they are more than he has any need to lose them to beat up someone for having an opinion. Next time I see him at a media event or golf tournament I will be sure to ask him and see what he says. I will let you know if he punches me out.

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2 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I said they PLAYED LIKE GARBAGE, not that they WERE GARBAGE.

 

Maybe you were too busy trying to be an internet tough guy (while also hiding behind a keyboard btw) to notice the difference. Its always interesting to see people tell others to grow up while acting like an idiot themselves. If you were standing next to me I would say the exact same things. If you attacked me for it I have a feeling that would be a very stupid decision by you. 

 

So, thanks for the threat and warning but I think I will just keep posting my opinions however I feel like it. 

 

If Bieksa wants to beat me up for it, I'm game. I wouldnt mind a big bag of cash right now. I think he probably likes his bank account and media job the way they are more than he has any need to lose them to beat up someone for having an opinion. Next time I see him at a media event or golf tournament I will be sure to ask him and see what he says. I will let you know if he punches me out.

Bye

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Haha wow, I take a few days off to work and I come back to a lot of text hehe. I did say I'll leave the last word for you in here so just a few comments and I'll proceed to the next thread.

 

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To be fair to TG he got his start in the league behind the bench on a rebuilding team. To view his record and failures isn't quite a fair shake of hands, he started coaching a team with an identity crisis, were we a retooling team? were we a competitive team? were we rebuilding? What was going on at that time? 

Yeah that was the nub of it. Management was serving two masters here (rebuild + 'compete for playoff spot') and it's been mixed results here. 

 

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To put TG under the microscope and examine his record and looking at the L column is a bit shortsighted. TG and his crew managed to coach this team through a decent season last year and the most exciting playoff run since the 2010-11 season.

I gave TG a pass in his first few seasons here, but the continuing trend of his teams being at the bottom of the league for being outshot and out-chanced is coloring me a bit more skeptical here. How much worse would our teams have looked if Markstrom and Demko did not provide vezina quality goaltending each night?

 

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Now this is what I mean by the leopard is changing his spots. Previous years, prior to the official rebuild. Benning would go out and sign whatever middle aged vets he could to fill in holes on the team and hope to hailmary a cup for the Sedins. Post Sedin retirement, he signed players to just hold down a spot and help us be better losers. No one saw how quickly this team would turn around from the Sedin retirement. It's easy to judge him on contracts handed out when the team was SUPPOSED to be a bottom team, but then surprisingly we pull off last years 36-27-6 record and a fairly good dent in the playoffs

I think this remains to be seen. We've yet to see what future contracts he's going to hand out in preparation for the competitive phase of this core (next 1-2 yrs). Is next year supposed to be competitive or not? that's another thing lost in the messaging here.

 

I like to rag on Roussel, Beagle, Gagner, Vanek a lot, but at the time they were signed and at the amount and term we paid them, management was clearly expecting them to be more than just placeholders. 

 

If you traded away your 1st and 2nd to load up on players like Miller and Toffoli, making a splash in playoffs should be an expectation, not a surprise.

 

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This is why Benning made the tough choice to let those middle aged vets, who have already used up the best mileage, go. Signing Toffoli would be like making those pre-Sedin retirement signings or early rebuild signings all over again. Same recipe, same result. He is no longer committing to the middle age veterans

Keeping any combination of Toffoli, Tanev and Markstrom in the short term would have helped us win more games but be better losers in the end.

That is not how I would describe Toffoli though. Watching the 2014 run, he drove the play and offense more than Pearson on that 70's line, and he's still playing his best hockey. His type of game doesn't age as badly as say a Roussel, or Ferland.

 

Benning delivered a quality top 6 player right into the hands of a divisional rival, And a top six player that wanted to stay here. I don't think you're strengthening JB's case here by saying letting him walk is all part of the plan.

 

Again, the goal was to keep any combination of Toffoli, Tanev or Markstrom. Not all of them. You win cups with guys like Toffoli. Otherwise why did JB decide to commit to another middle aged vet like Pearson?

 

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I'm going to break down the 'feast or famine' divisions, but I am going to create a new thread for it because it is going to take up a fair chunk of space... 

I shall read! 

 

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4. So I don't disagree with your point on how you view defence being tighter around possession, however Defence IS what you do without the puck. Positioning, coverage, active sticks etc. Blocking shots IS limiting scoring chances. Yes I do agree that blocked shots are an indicator that a team possess the puck less and is giving up opportunities. Yes I do also agree that every other division having 1 more team does muddle things up, however when I break down the 'feast or famine' I think you might be shocked and it might reassure you that this team is not nearly as much of a disaster as this season was. TBH the Canadian division was the toughest division due to being short 1 team. It made making playoffs much more difficult for all teams. There was 1 less team to find a way to win against.

Yep that's fine. Although blocking IS limiting a scoring chance, it is inversely correlated to possession though no? You mention the West has a lot of teams weaker than us, but they have the most blocks. So they play a tighter defense than the North?

 

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Does that sorta make sense? The drop off for our team hurts more in the way that we don't have the secondary or 3rd line scoring the make up for that. ESPECIALLY when we cant seem to stay healthy in the bottom of the line up.

I don't disagree that our depth sucks more than Tampas (despite paying a lot for them...) but again, proportionally, Petey and Miller make up the same % of the pie in our offensive points as Kucherov and Stammer did. (23%). That means the rest of the team was still scoring for the other 77% (Bo, Boeser, Edler, etc...) I think there's a case that it is comparable.

 

Happy to agree to disagree on this one.

 

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By the time he is off the books, we'll be thankful that we had 6 mil in the savings account to go and acquire the REAL top 6 guy we need to put us over the top. Either through a TDL acquisition or a UFA signing.Think of LE as a savings account that your parents open up for you as a kid, but you can't touch until you are 18-19. As nice as that money would be nice to have now, it will come in at a much better time in life. 

I am thankful that it allowed us to not take on that horrific OEL contract haha. 

 

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8. I'd argue that it's not that we wouldn't have iced any players if we didn't overpay.... It's a matter of WHO we'd be icing. And not many players want to sign with a club that is at the very beginning stages of a rebuild. That is a loooong haul. Richardson, Hammer, Matthias (soft as butter), Santorelli were all signed pre-rebuild, pre-sedin retirement. The rebuild wasn't until a couple years later after we let them go. It wasn't a matter of those players being available at the start of the rebuild and JB went with another option. And as for recently, Tofu, Marky, Stetch, Leivo and those guys that recently walked... Well I already mentioned how I viewed those choices to not resign them. Leivo also had a bad knee injury and for the most part him and Stetcher were fairly easily replaceable. The timing for a Toffoli or Marky extension is the wrong timing. We need to save those kinda extensions when we are a window to win, not a window to watch teams like TBL, VGK, COL, WSH, PIT, NYI, BOS dominate. It's tough to watch the team lose and struggle, but we need to struggle to figure it out. 

 

Personal preference. I prefer all those players to who we paid premium to bring in. The extra cap space could have been used to acquire bad dump contracts for more picks.

 

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The timing for a Toffoli or Marky extension is the wrong timing.

If you asked me, the decision to trade for Miller was wrong timing. It was a good value trade, but we needed one more year to draft and build up the farm.

 

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I hope that my next post on the 'feast or famine' analogy will reinforce your hope and optimism for next season. 

My optimism for next season is very dependent on how we structure the team this offseason rather than how we performed in the a division format that will never exist again. Big offseason where we have to reshape the defense and set the tone for this core in its competitive window.

 

I will read though!

 

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It has been a lot of fun to get into these stats and what not... albeit VERY time consuming hahaha, but I got nothin better to do while the boys arent playing. 

Haha for sure! In fact, look forward to a post i'm working on right now. I'm going through the last decade or so of drafts to see how JB stacks up against the league in terms of drafting. Some very interesting insights there too!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 6/9/2021 at 4:40 PM, aGENT said:

Bunch of new guys. Kids with little experience driving the bus. No Miller to start...all of whom had no preseason and then out of the gate with arguably the worst schedule in the league for a month, with no practice or rest time.

 

Not really a recipe for a good start.

I don't entirely agree. I think it is inarguable that we had the worst schedule in the league for the first month. Is there any possible way to spin it to say that we did not?

 

And IMO the Canucks situation/schedule was actually a (Buttman's) recipe to guarantee a terrible start/season.

 

Given the situation, only a troll or a simpleton would claim that the team's (easily foreseeable) results this season were evidence of incompetence on the part of management.

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44 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

I don't entirely agree. I think it is inarguable that we had the worst schedule in the league for the first month. Is there any possible way to spin it to say that we did not?

 

And IMO the Canucks situation/schedule was actually a (Buttman's) recipe to guarantee a terrible start/season.

 

Given the situation, only a troll or a simpleton would claim that the team's (easily foreseeable) results this season were evidence of incompetence on the part of management.

Unfortunately if it wasn't for COVID the last half our schedule was going to be much more well rested and prepared for our games. Where that should of/could of have benefited us greatly as teams would be 1/2-2/3 of the way through there season and then been hit with 10 games in 15 days or something ridiculous. 

Hairy Buttman sure did guarantee us an atrocious start, but when we got through that shotgun start and began to get some practices in and a bit of rest, the team began to play better and were getting the results. Leading up to COVID we were playing well and winning. I imagine it would have continued to get better as the season went on, with more rest and more practice time for the new guys would have been able to get more familiarized with line mates/pairings/systems. 

 

Maybe.... just maybe... COVID will be a blessing in disguise. A team that was pretty decent last year, adding another top 10 pick to the core, will be what makes the difference in a couple years when we are ready to start contending? IDK. I just want to look at this season in a different light and believe there is great times ahead and that this season was just the most unfortunate and unluckiest season in history, that brings us great fortune in a short time to come. It always rains before the rainbow!

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52 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

Unfortunately if it wasn't for COVID the last half our schedule was going to be much more well rested and prepared for our games. Where that should of/could of have benefited us greatly as teams would be 1/2-2/3 of the way through there season and then been hit with 10 games in 15 days or something ridiculous. 

Hairy Buttman sure did guarantee us an atrocious start, but when we got through that shotgun start and began to get some practices in and a bit of rest, the team began to play better and were getting the results. Leading up to COVID we were playing well and winning. I imagine it would have continued to get better as the season went on, with more rest and more practice time for the new guys would have been able to get more familiarized with line mates/pairings/systems. 

 

Maybe.... just maybe... COVID will be a blessing in disguise. A team that was pretty decent last year, adding another top 10 pick to the core, will be what makes the difference in a couple years when we are ready to start contending? IDK. I just want to look at this season in a different light and believe there is great times ahead and that this season was just the most unfortunate and unluckiest season in history, that brings us great fortune in a short time to come. It always rains before the rainbow!

You really need to be a glass half full person to see Covid as any kind of a blessing lol. But, yes, there are almost always silver linings if you look hard enough.

 

There's no doubt in my mind that it cost us Toffoli, but on the other hand, no way we would have picked up Schmidt for anywhere close to the steal price we got him for if it weren't for Covid screwing up all the other teams' salary caps too.

 

The contracts we sign this summer will reflect covid cap prices so might help us out down the road a bit.

 

And having our promising young team squashed by covid/crappy schedule this season means that we can probably get pretty good Vegas odds next season on a Cup bet. Should be able to get 40 or 50-to-one odds before the season starts, and I think that with the amount of improving young talent on our team, 20 or 25-to-one would be more reasonable.

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On 6/9/2021 at 9:23 AM, wallstreetamigo said:

If you watched the team last season, they PLAYED like garbage the vast majority of the season. 

 

As for the rest of your rant, its based on something I did not actually say. There is a difference between saying the entire roster is garbage and the teams play on the ice last season was garbage.

 

No one that watched the games would reasonably be able to argue that the team did not play like garbage pretty much the whole season.

I don't agree that we played like garbage.  Did we play too our potential last season?  Probably not but I doubt that, even at our best, we would have made the playoffs (we might have squeaked in).  The team's Covid outbreak also didn't help - that likely had a big impact on our play.  What most here don't realize on CDC is that we are missing a few key players from being a playoff performer (not to mention a Stanley Cup contender). 

 

We need a big skilled top 2 or top 4 D man.  I'm not sold that Hughes is our 1D because he isn't big enough to hold his position or move forwards off the puck.  However, I really really like Hughes as he is great on the powerplay and at carrying the puck but he is not a Shea Weber, Jeff Petry, Victor Hedman, Alex Pietrangelo, Seth Jones, Darnell Nurse, Shea Theodore, etc.  Alex Edler was close but his best days are several years behind him. 

 

We also need a stronger bottom 6 both production wise and size wise.  So, in my opinion, it isn't that we played like garbage, it's that we need better, stronger players.  If you don't have the tools, you aren't going to be successful.  Until that happens, it will be more of the same and I wouldn't count on the playoffs next year.  To me, the 2020 season was a fluke as we just lucked out with our performance in the playoffs.  We didn't deserve to go as far as we did.  We totally relied on spectacular goaltending from Markstrom and Demko (also on Tanev's shot blocking).  

 

I'm hoping management doesn't panic and dump draft picks for a bandaid (unless it's for Seth Jones, Rasmus Dahlin, Shea Theodore or Owen Power - I know, I'm a dreamer).

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8 minutes ago, sockeye said:

I don't agree that we played like garbage.  Did we play too our potential last season?  Probably not but I doubt that, even at our best, we would have made the playoffs (we might have squeaked in).  The team's Covid outbreak also didn't help - that likely had a big impact on our play.  What most here don't realize on CDC is that we are missing a few key players from being a playoff performer (not to mention a Stanley Cup contender). 

 

We need a big skilled top 2 or top 4 D man.  I'm not sold that Hughes is our 1D because he isn't big enough to hold his position or move forwards off the puck.  However, I really really like Hughes as he is great on the powerplay and at carrying the puck but he is not a Shea Weber, Jeff Petry, Victor Hedman, Alex Pietrangelo, Seth Jones, Darnell Nurse, Shea Theodore, etc.  Alex Edler was close but his best days are several years behind him. 

 

We also need a stronger bottom 6 both production wise and size wise.  So, in my opinion, it isn't that we played like garbage, it's that we need better, stronger players.  If you don't have the tools, you aren't going to be successful.  Until that happens, it will be more of the same and I wouldn't count on the playoffs next year.  To me, the 2020 season was a fluke as we just lucked out with our performance in the playoffs.  We didn't deserve to go as far as we did.  We totally relied on spectacular goaltending from Markstrom and Demko (also on Tanev's shot blocking).  

 

I'm hoping management doesn't panic and dump draft picks for a bandaid (unless it's for Seth Jones, Rasmus Dahlin, Shea Theodore or Owen Power - I know, I'm a dreamer).

I dont disagree that our roster is lacking. I agree with almost everything you say.

 

In terms of how the team played though, that comes down to a direct comparison to how other teams play. Its relative. There are all kinds of reasons that my take is they played like garbage. It wasnt only roster related. Coaching and the style they play under these coaches offensively vs defensively is like oil and water. Neither ever seems in sync with the other.

 

I am not a fan of the defensive systems especially. It doesnt fit what, on paper at leastwith Hughes, Schmidt, Myers, Juolevi, Hamonic, Rathbone, etc., should be a much better defensive group than it is.

 

I also feel a huge problem defensively is the play of the forwards just as much as the play of the dmen. The overall puck support especially when trying to get pucks out cleanly to transition is severely lacking.

 

I think while the roster has big holes that need to be filled, they have enough to play much better than they did, especially early on. I watch most teams at least to some degree. The Canucks are among the most boring, improperly structured, and disjointed that I have seen the last several years. 

 

 

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