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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, stawns said:

There has been a steady progression of wins over every season in the last 4 years, save this asterisk of a year

I will take random ways to parse up things to hide failure for $1000 Alex!

 

We are worse than when he took over.  As the players he was left with started leaving the roster, the team just kept getting worse and worse.

 

We got a couple extra wins a year as our division went from the strongest to the weakest in the league and we got to play terrible teams more often.

 

How about 1 season in the last 6 that the team managed to squeak above .500

 

It is really pretty hard to be below .500

so consistently when you factor in the loser point from OT means that even losing teams can be above .500 and that mark doesn’t get you close to the playoffs.

 

We have had one of the very worst records in the league during that stretch... and the teams worse than us were often taking on dead cap hits just to hit the cap floor while we were capped out the entire time.  That means Benning managed to get the worst value per dollar spent of any of his peers.

 

He isn’t good at his job.  We have a way to measure that... they are called wins.

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1 hour ago, Provost said:

I will take random ways to parse up things to hide failure for $1000 Alex!

 

We are worse than when he took over.  As the players he was left with started leaving the roster, the team just kept getting worse and worse.

 

We got a couple extra wins a year as our division went from the strongest to the weakest in the league and we got to play terrible teams more often.

 

How about 1 season in the last 6 that the team managed to squeak above .500

 

It is really pretty hard to be below .500

so consistently when you factor in the loser point from OT means that even losing teams can be above .500 and that mark doesn’t get you close to the playoffs.

 

We have had one of the very worst records in the league during that stretch... and the teams worse than us were often taking on dead cap hits just to hit the cap floor while we were capped out the entire time.  That means Benning managed to get the worst value per dollar spent of any of his peers.

 

He isn’t good at his job.  We have a way to measure that... they are called wins.

You said you wanted to see a steady progression.  Other than this season, which is obviously an outlier, they showed you a steady progression for 4 seasons.........but somehow you try and spin that into "they didnt earn that, it fell into their lap"? 

 

That's honestly sad

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Posted (edited)
On 5/29/2021 at 7:51 AM, Provost said:

If there was a consistent direction that had been building over the years towards an identity I would be fine to see it continue.

 

Unfortunately it has largely been reactionary moves since day 1.

 

We want to compete quickly... so let’s sign some veterans... wait we want to get younger... wait we need some veterans to insulate the kids... we will be good in a couple of years... we need some size and toughness... no wait, we need more speed and skill... players need to earn their ice time.... well not these particular guys they get gifted spots... We want to play a fast, relentless style... hey look at all these guys I just signed that have none of those attributes but are good character guys... I know every couple of years I said we would be good in a couple of years, this time I really mean it... wait somehow we have too many veterans so let’s let these good character guys go who are well respected in the room... we need to get younger and faster... so watch me trade a bunch of good draft picks and prospects for instant gratification... wait now we need more veterans again... we will be good in a couple of years... fans need to be patient because these things take time, when I kept saying we could do it in a couple of years, “a couple” really meant 9 years or so... we just need more speed skill, depth, and prospects and then a bunch of new cheaper veterans and all will be good!

Are you making fun of Uncle Jim the wind cock - pointing in whatever direction the wind blows today ???? 

 

GOOD !

(You'll get his homeys upset speaking so truthfully, you know....)

 

image.jpeg.ae374a0298a3ebb3de464a9d3a1ec9a8.jpegWind cock Stock Photo Images. 1,041 Wind cock royalty free pictures and  photos available to download from thousands of stock photographers.

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7 hours ago, stawns said:

You said you wanted to see a steady progression.  Other than this season, which is obviously an outlier, they showed you a steady progression for 4 seasons.........but somehow you try and spin that into "they didnt earn that, it fell into their lap"? 

 

That's honestly sad

I clearly said a consistent direction and building towards an identity.

 

There is none of that.  Each year Benning does a 180 on what the team needs are... and then he signs players that don’t even fit what he says he wants.

 

The team has no identity.  I like the style Green says he wants, but he doesn’t have the horses to do it.

 

Also no steady progression... you have to remove years and make excuses to even get a hint of that.

 

Here are their league finishes since Benning took over;

 

8th, 28th, 29th, 26th, 23rd, 17th, 24th

 

.616  .457  .421 .445  .494  .565  .446

 

No one can take any meaningful linear progression out of that unless they are just inventing things and trying to parse things out to tell a false narrative.  That is just tiny minor variation and randomness.  Out of 7 data points... 4 of them were year over year improvements and 3 of them were year over year declines... including the most recent year.

 

If you want to remove an outlier, it is clearly the truncated bubble year.... not this year when they got the same results that they have gotten for  the other 4 previous years.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Provost said:

I clearly said a consistent direction and building towards an identity.

 

There is none of that.  Each year Benning does a 180 on what the team needs are... and then he signs players that don’t even fit what he says he wants.

 

The team has no identity.  I like the style Green says he wants, but he doesn’t have the horses to do it.

 

Also no steady progression... you have to remove years and make excuses to even get a hint of that.

 

Here are their league finishes since Benning took over;

 

8th, 28th, 29th, 26th, 23rd, 17th, 24th

 

.616  .457  .421 .445  .494  .565  .446

 

No one can take any meaningful linear progression out of that unless they are just inventing things and trying to parse things out to tell a false narrative.  That is just tiny minor variation and randomness.  Out of 7 data points... 4 of them were year over year improvements and 3 of them were year over year declines... including the most recent year.

 

If you want to remove an outlier, it is clearly the truncated bubble year.... not this year when they got the same results that they have gotten for  the other 4 previous years.

 

 

Seriously, why do you even follow this team?   Benning will likely be gone in 5 years or so, you should come back then

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36 minutes ago, Provost said:

I clearly said a consistent direction and building towards an identity.

 

There is none of that.  Each year Benning does a 180 on what the team needs are... and then he signs players that don’t even fit what he says he wants.

 

The team has no identity.  I like the style Green says he wants, but he doesn’t have the horses to do it.

 

Also no steady progression... you have to remove years and make excuses to even get a hint of that.

 

Here are their league finishes since Benning took over;

 

8th, 28th, 29th, 26th, 23rd, 17th, 24th

 

.616  .457  .421 .445  .494  .565  .446

 

No one can take any meaningful linear progression out of that unless they are just inventing things and trying to parse things out to tell a false narrative.  That is just tiny minor variation and randomness.  Out of 7 data points... 4 of them were year over year improvements and 3 of them were year over year declines... including the most recent year.

 

If you want to remove an outlier, it is clearly the truncated bubble year.... not this year when they got the same results that they have gotten for  the other 4 previous years.

 

 

See where the numbers go from 29th to 26th to 23rd to 17th?  That's called progression.  

 

This  year, if you DON"T factor in COVID and the schedule then you're not doing it right.  It matters.   

 

If you don't understand that this team, with younger/skilled players now in place, is an improvement over where we were at, that's your issue.  

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30 minutes ago, stawns said:

Seriously, why do you even follow this team?   Benning will likely be gone in 5 years or so, you should come back then

I have been following the team long before Benning and will be long after (probably a lot less than 5 years).  Don’t conflate one GM with the team... that is just objectively wrong.

 

That also doesn’t change the fact you were just making stuff up to invent a false narrative.

 

I guess I just like the team more than you do because I actually want it to be better.

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50 minutes ago, Provost said:

 

No one can take any meaningful linear progression out of that unless they are just inventing things and trying to parse things out to tell a false narrative.

or unless you watch the games, follow the team, and understand what rebuilding an organization looks like. 

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3 minutes ago, tas said:

or unless you watch the games, follow the team, and understand what rebuilding an organization looks like. 

We finished last in the weakest division, if that’s what rebuilding looks like, we’ve nailed it.

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6 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

See where the numbers go from 29th to 26th to 23rd to 17th?  That's called progression.  

 

This  year, if you DON"T factor in COVID and the schedule then you're not doing it right.  It matters.   

 

If you don't understand that this team, with younger/skilled players now in place, is an improvement over where we were at, that's your issue.  

Wait so you throw away this year... but the last year that was also truncated by Covid right when the team was in free fall (with a losing record in Feb/March before the season was canceled) is evidence of progression and shouldn’t be thrown away?

 

If you have to massage the data to make up a narrative, that is your issue.

 

We have better young players, and worse veteran players than when Benning took over the reins.  That is a pretty logical outcome of consistent put picking near the top of the draft... and having to bribe UFAs to come to a bad team by offering them more money and term than anyone else is.

 

None of that changes that we have been one of the worst teams in the league for years.  That once you factor in the other basement dwellers only spending to the cap floor, Benning uses cap space more inefficiently than any of his peers.... even with two of our best players having been on cheap ELCs during a big chunk of that time.  

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1 minute ago, Dumb Nuck said:

We finished last in the weakest division, if that’s what rebuilding looks like, we’ve nailed it.

in a meaningless year. pretend this season didn't happen, which it almost didn't. 

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2 minutes ago, Provost said:

 

having to bribe UFAs

 

 

Quote

If you have to massage the data to make up a narrative, that is your issue.

 

There's that old double standard that I see so often.

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1 minute ago, tas said:

in a meaningless year. pretend this season didn't happen, which it almost didn't. 

1.  Covid variant ("doesn't matter")

2.  Schedule from hell that NO other team contended with out of the gates ("doesn't matter")

3.  Star player injured/out ("doesn't matter")

 

Facts "don't matter" to some.

 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, tas said:

or unless you watch the games, follow the team, and understand what rebuilding an organization looks like. 

Wow... trading way a bunch of high draft picks is what a rebuilding organization looks like?

 

You should tell that to basically everyone else in hockey that think differently.

 

There is a reason why everyone outside the market thinks we lack direction 

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On 5/30/2021 at 10:16 AM, Alflives said:

Excellent post.

Rebuilds are also moulded by the draft, and which players a team selects with their first round picks.  And there will be misses in those first round picks, so how well (and at what cost) does the GM make up for those misses is an important factor into determining just how good the rebuilt team will be.  This is where Benning shines bright.  We have core players coming from outside our first round picks.  Players like Demko, Hoglander, and Rathbone make up for any earlier misses.  

Imo we are through the drafting high stage of our rebuild, and have moved into the supporting the core stage.  So I expect to see (more of) those supporting players coming in various ways.  Another good thing Benning has been doing is adding those supporting players during the drafting stage.  Miller and Schmidt were key adds via trade.  Myers was a key add via UFA.  

We are looking at a fresh young core, who are supported by good players, and I for one am excited!

I'm excited too.   The only thing that worries me is we don't have enough yet ... and that patience will run out and a new GM will come in and rip it all apart at the seems....and that maybe that's what we actually need at this point.   JB made some mistakes, and made some average moved and made some good moves.   Miller, Schmidt and Myers were good moves - all something we needed, and hope for more of the same.    Podz ability to come in strong will matter a lot for the team and JB future.    I 100% get the frustration with the cap - aside from Luongo it's all on JB.  

 

I'm not sure how things will go Alf.   Feel we are a strong candidate for a bubble playoff team next year with things exactly they are now.    Also feel we are at a cross roads.   Good trades and signings going forward, plus continued top ten drafting league wide for sure will push us over the top.    The margin of error at this point can go several ways. 

 

Know he works tirelessly, as does TG for the club.   It was reported last off season JB was on the phone more then anyone else trying to help the club.   And didn't do anything stupid - did exactly what i hoped for.    That is - gave the team a chance to improve and compete with the Vegas's of the league.   Another off-season like that - maybe a serious trade for Seth Jones, maybe just another top three pick at 9 .... we need something that's for sure to move the needle.   I really would rather stay pat and let the cap shed naturally.   Unless we can afford and get a player like Seth Jones, it makes little sense to trade our first. 

 

Two years ... that's a big gap in the pipe coming up.   Wouldn't do another Miller trade with it can say that.    Teams going to continue to require cheap talent to come in for some time if we are going to make it to a contender.    

 

Agree the future is bright because it truly is.   How bright is going to 100% depend on what JB does this year including if it's nothing major.   He set himself up for this off-season with his last off-season.   That's exactly what i want him to do again for the following one - with a caveat - Jones or Hamilton, that's the level of players we need now if we are going to be using up futures and selling our cap to make it work.   

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2 minutes ago, Provost said:

 That once you factor in the other basement dwellers only spending to the cap floor, Benning uses cap space more inefficiently than any of his peers.... even with two of our best players having been on cheap ELCs during a big chunk of that time.  

you say benning uses cap space more inefficiently than yadda yadda yadda when earlier in the same post you already posted the reason why that is. who cares about cap space during rebuilding years? if the owner of the team gives benning the green light to use cash to bring in veterans to support the youth and help them turn into good pros, isn't that better than just throwing the kids to the wolves and permanently crippling their confidence when they inevitably fail?

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11 minutes ago, Provost said:

Wow... trading way a bunch of high draft picks is what a rebuilding organization looks like?

 

You should tell that to basically everyone else in hockey that think differently.

 

There is a reason why everyone outside the market thinks we lack direction 

go ahead and quote everyone else in hockey and everyone outside the market for me. 

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16 minutes ago, Provost said:

Wow... trading way a bunch of high draft picks is what a rebuilding organization looks like?

 

You should tell that to basically everyone else in hockey that think differently.

 

There is a reason why everyone outside the market thinks we lack direction 

When did he trade a bunch of high draft picks, outside of the pick for Miller?

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