With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Rick Dhaliwal,Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

[Bertuzzipunch]

23 minutes ago, AV. said:

The first statement is true.

The second statement could use some work [remove the "i"]

 

[4petesake]

5 minutes ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

 

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

6 hours ago, EddieVedder said:

This makes no sense.  Makar is one of the biggest reasons why they can play "all out offense."  The Avs control the flow of the game because they have the horses to do so.  Vancouver isnt even close.  The opposing teams see Hughes on the ice and lick their chops because they know gaining entry and cycling in our end will be a piece of cake.   

The argument is Petterson vs Makar...who was the better player in the 2017 draft? I'm saying that Petterson is a better player because he's played on crappy Vancouver teams (that plays a slightly defensive style), and he put up great numbers, whereas Makar plays on a stacked Colorado team that plays an all out offensive style, and his stats are over inflated....like a Tyson Barrie.

 

 

[Johnny Torts]

On 5/31/2021 at 7:47 PM, Patel Bure said:

With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Sat Shah, Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

 

It wasn’t supposed to be this way.  
 

“We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs, under “Shanaplan” were rebuilding the correct way and that the Canucks way was absurd.

 

”We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs model was a model of excellence and that it would only be a matter of time before the Leafs took the torch from the Pens, Hawks, and Kings.

 

”We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs signing Tavares was a move that would place them closer to the cup, and that signing Tavares to an 11 million dollar cap hit wouldn’t have unforeseen negative circumstances......because the cap always goes up!  Just like real estate and the stock market!  “How is signing an elite franchise center a bad move, lol, omg” was the response.  Although a small portion of Canuck fans tried to warn “the pundits” that signing high ticket superstar  UFA’s to premium contracts BEFORE re-upping your RFA core to cap friendly bridge deals would discourage long term “buy in” (ie taking less money to serve the greater good), and instead, would foster a “he got paid and so I want to get paid too!” mindset, “the pundits” laughed and instead, pointed to the fact that the Canucks had terrible contracts of their own (Sutter, Eriksson, Baertschi, Ferland, Roussel, Beagle, etc.).   Were the pundits right?........yes, but only half right.   The other half of the equation, is that

 

1) Despite the “horridity” of these contracts, the highest paid player on our team is still 6 million dollars.....meaning that an internal cap and/or “buy in” (ie taking less money and term short term to “serve the greater good”) was still a possibility.

 

2) Almost all of our bad/transitional contracts that aided us through the rebuild, would be off the books before the start of the 22-23 season......which would be the exact time when our window of elitehood would begin, with our core players and supporting players at very good cap hits (Boeser still a cost controlled asset + Horvat/Miller/Schmidt/Demko all making less than 6 million + Podz/Hog on ELC’s, etc.).

 

“We” were laughed at by ”The pundits when they claimed that burning a year off of Hughes and Boeser’s ELC’s for such a small amount of games made absolutely no sense, because according to them, “all cup winning teams have their best players on ELC’s” (in actuality, Pittsburgh 2009 was really the last team to do this......all other cups winning teams since then had their top players on relatively cap friendly deals and/or low AAV% relative to the teams’ salary cap + a stronger investment in depth players).

 

”We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs actually had built their team correctly and that the only reason why they didn’t have Better results, was because they were playing in the toughest division in the league.   Safe to say that this wasn’t the case this year eh?
 

“We” were told by “the pundits” that the Canucks haven’t had a plan since 2014, and that we are now into year 7 of our rebuild.  “The pundits” neglected to mention that the Canucks made the playoffs during Benning’s first year (thanks to bringing in Ryan Miller, Vrbata, and Bonino), missed the playoffs for 4 seasons after that, and then made the 2nd round in 2020, and have now positioned themselves for a very BIG 2022-2023.    
 

It really does make you wonder though eh?  If the Canucks are supposedly into year 7 of their rebuild “without a plan,” then what does that make Toronto?  Year 17?   Because the aforementioned “pundits” can brag all they want about Toronto’s deep team, but they still haven’t won a round since 2004!   Meanwhile, teams like Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver have all made the 2nd round Atleast once.  
 

While Edmonton and Calgary have yet to build on their 2nd round appearances, the jury is still out on Vancouver.  Despite this however, the important point I want to illuminate here is that “the pundits” shouldn’t be celebrating the fact that the Canucks missed the playoffs this year, but rather, recognize the simple truth that progression is almost never  a linear thing.   How did Philadelphia and Dallas do this year by the way?    
 

Remember a few years back when Jason Botchford (RIP) and Trevor Linden praised “The Winnipeg model?”  Winnipeg also serves as proof that progression isn’t linear.  After making the 3rd round in 2018, they lost in the first round a year later and then technically missed the playoffs last season.  
 

So the main points I’m making is this:

 

1) Anyone who praised “Shanaplan” should take this time to apologize for the error of their ways (We forgive you).

 

2) Given all of the other elite teams in the league, and how their progression hasn’t always been linear, fans and pundits should realize that Benning’s rebuild since 2014 is on par with most of the other teams that had to rebuild.  While progression hasn’t always been linear, the moving average has trended upwards.  All rebuilding teams have to eat turds for approximately 6-9 years and the Canucks are of no exception.

 

Sincerely.

 

Patel Bure.

U champion

[wai_lai416]

9 hours ago, Sergei Shirokov said:

Cale Makar plays on a fully loaded Colorado Avalanche team, that plays all out offensive. Makar is going to get points no matter what. Petterson plays on a pretty weak canucks team, that plays more conservative.

 

Quinn Hughes was the best player in 2018. Again Svechnikov plays for a great Carolina team where he's surrounded by high quality talent and depth. one of the best teams in the league. 

 

We'll see on Podkolzin, but to me, he looks like a Horavt.

because makar plays on a loaded team that's why he does better defensively? what playing on a better team have to do with positioning knocking ppl off the puck and not making bad pinch? Hughes is amazing offensively but defensively he still needs a lot of work. even if u stick hughes on colorado he would still struggle getting beaten stacked team or not.. Makar was a front runner for the norris until injury derailed him.. if he's healthy the entire season he's definitely in the discussion of the finalist or even winning it.. Pettersson is amazing but he's no where close to conversation of best forward in the league.. 

 

Funny you keep saying this player plays for a better team as an arguement.. coz if that's the case Dahlin would still be the best player in the 2018 draft.. he plays on prolly one of the worse team ever defensively and goaltending wise.. buffalo as a whole have no defense... like it's funny you guys say Hughes is miles ahead of Dahlin even though Dahlin have more points than Hughes does at a younger age and playing for one of the worse team in recent memory.. so how do you judge one player is better than the other because he plays on a better team?

[Bertuzzipunch]

9 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

because makar plays on a loaded team that's why he does better defensively? what playing on a better team have to do with positioning knocking ppl off the puck and not making bad pinch? Hughes is amazing offensively but defensively he still needs a lot of work. even if u stick hughes on colorado he would still struggle getting beaten stacked team or not.. Makar was a front runner for the norris until injury derailed him.. if he's healthy the entire season he's definitely in the discussion of the finalist or even winning it.. Pettersson is amazing but he's no where close to conversation of best forward in the league.. 

 

Funny you keep saying this player plays for a better team as an arguement.. coz if that's the case Dahlin would still be the best player in the 2018 draft.. he plays on prolly one of the worse team ever defensively and goaltending wise.. buffalo as a whole have no defense... like it's funny you guys say Hughes is miles ahead of Dahlin even though Dahlin have more points than Hughes does at a younger age and playing for one of the worse team in recent memory.. so how do you judge one player is better than the other because he plays on a better team?

When did dahlin have more points than hughes?

[wallstreetamigo]

1 hour ago, Sergei Shirokov said:

The argument is Petterson vs Makar...who was the better player in the 2017 draft? I'm saying that Petterson is a better player because he's played on crappy Vancouver teams (that plays a slightly defensive style), and he put up great numbers, whereas Makar plays on a stacked Colorado team that plays an all out offensive style, and his stats are over inflated....like a Tyson Barrie.

 

 

The argument that Petterssen is better because he plays for a crappier team is not really a valid argument.

 

EP still gets the majority of his deployment on the offensive side of things and plays with the better offensive players. Other players pick up the slack defensively and matching up to allow him that role. 

 

Makar would be a dynamic player on any team in the NHL. Minimizing his skill and ability doesnt pump EP up.

 

Both guys are great young players that play different positions. If I could pick one for my team it would be Makar just because dmen like him are harder to find.

 

I dont agree at all that Hughes is the best player from his draft class. He has no chance to be until he improves significantly defensively.

[spur1]

6 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The argument that Petterssen is better because he plays for a crappier team is not really a valid argument.

 

EP still gets the majority of his deployment on the offensive side of things and plays with the better offensive players. Other players pick up the slack defensively and matching up to allow him that role. 

 

Makar would be a dynamic player on any team in the NHL. Minimizing his skill and ability doesnt pump EP up.

 

Both guys are great young players that play different positions. If I could pick one for my team it would be Makar just because dmen like him are harder to find.

 

I dont agree at all that Hughes is the best player from his draft class. He has no chance to be until he improves significantly defensively.

Okay...Hughes isn’t the best player of his draft class because Makar is better..,two different years there bud. 

[Elias Pettersson]

19 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The argument that Petterssen is better because he plays for a crappier team is not really a valid argument.

 

EP still gets the majority of his deployment on the offensive side of things and plays with the better offensive players. Other players pick up the slack defensively and matching up to allow him that role. 

 

Makar would be a dynamic player on any team in the NHL. Minimizing his skill and ability doesnt pump EP up.

 

Both guys are great young players that play different positions. If I could pick one for my team it would be Makar just because dmen like him are harder to find.

 

I dont agree at all that Hughes is the best player from his draft class. He has no chance to be until he improves significantly defensively.

Dahlin, Tkachuk and Hughes.  Those are the top 3 players from the 2018 draft class, not necessarily in that order.  We got at the very least a top 3 pick in that draft picking 7th overall.  

 

Makar and Pettersson.  Those are the top 2 players from the 2017 draft class, not necessarily in that order.  We got at the very least a top 2 pick in that draft picking 5th overall.

 

I would say we did very well in those 2 drafts without even a top 4 pick.  I would say both of our picks were home runs in the slots that they were taken.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Elias Pettersson

[Elias Pettersson]

.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Elias Pettersson

[tas]

7 minutes ago, spur1 said:

Okay...Hughes isn’t the best player of his draft class because Makar is better..,two different years there bud. 

that's not even close to what @wallstreetamigosuggested.

[wallstreetamigo]

7 minutes ago, spur1 said:

Okay...Hughes isn’t the best player of his draft class because Makar is better..,two different years there bud. 

I realize they are different draft years bud. Thats why I compared Makar and EP who were drafted the same year. An argument could be made for either to be the best from that draft.

 

The poster I was responding to said EP was the best from his draft class AND also said Hughes was the best from his a year later. Sorry, but Hughes is not close to the best player from his draft at this point. 

[wallstreetamigo]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Dahlin, Tkachuk and Hughes.  Those are the top 3 players from the 2018 draft class, not necessarily in that order.  We got at the very least a top 3 pick in that draft picking 7th overall.  

 

Makar and Pettersson.  Those are the top 2 players from the 2017 draft class, not necessarily in that order.  We got at the very least a top 2 pick in that draft picking 5th overall.

 

I would say we did very well in those 2 drafts without even a top 4 pick.  I would say both of our picks were home runs in the slots that they were taken.

Never said we didnt do well.

 

I said its not clear cut that EP is better than Makar and no way is Hughes the best from his draft.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Never said we didnt do well.

 

I said its not clear cut that EP is better than Makar and no way is Hughes the best from his draft.

I agree with that...

[wallstreetamigo]

7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Dahlin, Tkachuk and Hughes.  Those are the top 3 players from the 2018 draft class, not necessarily in that order.  We got at the very least a top 3 pick in that draft picking 7th overall.  

 

Makar and Pettersson.  Those are the top 2 players from the 2017 draft class, not necessarily in that order.  We got at the very least a top 2 pick in that draft picking 5th overall.

 

I would say we did very well in those 2 drafts without even a top 4 pick.  I would say both of our picks were home runs in the slots that they were taken.

Svechnikov is pretty damn good too. I would put him in that conversation. And even the Montreal kid whose name I cant spell is not too bad.

[wai_lai416]

34 minutes ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

When did dahlin have more points than hughes?

at the same age of their career 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Svechnikov is pretty damn good too. I would put him in that conversation. And even the Montreal kid whose name I cant spell is not too bad.

Svechnikov I would put 4th on that list behind the other 3, but still a great player.  Kotkaniemi I would put a distant 5th.

[Elias Pettersson]

3 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

at the same age of their career 

Dahlin is only 20 years old right now.  Hughes never played a full year in the league until he turned 20.  Unless you are counting the 5 games he played when he was 19.

[wai_lai416]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Dahlin is only 20 years old right now.  Hughes never played a full year in the league until he turned 20.  Unless you are counting the 5 games he played when he was 19.

i'm counting their current real age not their current how many games they played in the NHL like Dahlin hit 100 points at a younger age than Hughes did

[wallstreetamigo]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

Svechnikov I would put 4th on that list behind the other 3, but still a great player.  Kotkaniemi I would put a distant 5th.

Svech is pretty decent at both ends of the ice.

 

The sticking point for me with Hughes is his defensive game. Its not just because he plays on a crappy team either. Its definitely imo partly because the style they are coached to play. It really doesn't fit with what he needs to do to be an effective defender with his lack of size and strength. He doesnt get to use his skills that way. 

 

Its also that to generate things offensively he has to be very aggressive which is of course his strength as an offensive player. But his defense suffers for it. 

 

Over time to be an effective defender, he needs to be better at reading when to go and when not to. Thats just time and experience. 

 

I think of Duncan Keith (I know, we all hate him lol). He was effective because he learned to use his offensive minded skills on the defensive side of the puck. Aggressive stick, skating the puck out of trouble, effective transition passing, etc. And he had a few different partners who were very solid defensively and could give him a bit more leeway to take calculated risks.

 

Hughes is smart. I think he will eventually get it. The team could help him and the whole defense accelerate that with a new defense coach and an effective partner for Quinn.