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With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Rick Dhaliwal,Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

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7 minutes ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

I think most fans know the difference between the 2 and what each brings to the table. Quinn will never get credit no matter how much improved he becomes defensively in the future. Mostly from non canuck fans, he will always be hated on. 

who's hating on him? right now it's not even a debate he's poor defensively and he needs to work on i'll be happy if he ends up a great offensive player with a respectable defensive side not the current defensive side

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Just now, wai_lai416 said:

who's hating on him? right now it's not even a debate he's poor defensively and he needs to work on i'll be happy if he ends up a great offensive player with a respectable defensive side not the current defensive side

Not really talking about you. The fact is he will never get credit for his defense even if it does improve. Its a stigma that unfortunately i dont see it ever going away. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I think Dahlin would be a lot better away from the Buffalo tire fire.

You just said it makes no difference if a player plays for a crappy team or not. It makes a ton of difference being surrounded by good players, playing in a good system, with good coaches, and a good culture. 

Edited by Sergei Shirokov
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

because makar plays on a loaded team that's why he does better defensively? what playing on a better team have to do with positioning knocking ppl off the puck and not making bad pinch? Hughes is amazing offensively but defensively he still needs a lot of work. even if u stick hughes on colorado he would still struggle getting beaten stacked team or not.. Makar was a front runner for the norris until injury derailed him.. if he's healthy the entire season he's definitely in the discussion of the finalist or even winning it.. Pettersson is amazing but he's no where close to conversation of best forward in the league.. 

 

Funny you keep saying this player plays for a better team as an arguement.. coz if that's the case Dahlin would still be the best player in the 2018 draft.. he plays on prolly one of the worse team ever defensively and goaltending wise.. buffalo as a whole have no defense... like it's funny you guys say Hughes is miles ahead of Dahlin even though Dahlin have more points than Hughes does at a younger age and playing for one of the worse team in recent memory.. so how do you judge one player is better than the other because he plays on a better team?

I'm not comparing Hughes to Makar. For the record, the Norris trophy is always favored to the highest scoring defensemen. Playing on a better team means your in a position to load up on more points because your team always has the puck, is on the PP more, and is attacking all night vs defending all night. I think it's reasonable to say that if you play on an overall better team, your stats and play will be better. Petterson was able to put up great numbers. 

 

Quinn Hughes almost helped the Canucks to the conference Finals last year. Buffalo hasn't been able to escape the basement. Buffalo has a similar level of talent to Vancouver. Quinn Hughes actually helped his team win.  

Edited by Sergei Shirokov
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11 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Hughes will get it, the whole family bleeds hockey and Quinn has an excessive amount of pure talent.  He just needs a few years in the league to learn the defensive side.  He will never be an Alex Edler but with time I think he could be as good as Makar on the defensive side.  Makar is a superior player at this point as he has a more well rounded game.  But Hughes has the skill and brains to get to Makar's level I think.  We will see.

You realize playing defense and actually defending isnt just about "pure talent" right?

I dont think Ive ever witnessed a defensemen get outmuscled and outbattled more in one season than I saw Hughes this year.  

Anyone who chooses to ignore that he doesnt have the battle level required to be a solid defender is drinking way too much Koolaid.  

  

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4 hours ago, Sergei Shirokov said:

I'm not comparing Hughes to Makar. For the record, the Norris trophy is always favored to the highest scoring defensemen. Playing on a better team means your in a position to load up on more points because your team always has the puck, is on the PP more, and is attacking all night vs defending all night. I think it's reasonable to say that if you play on an overall better team, your stats and play will be better. Petterson was able to put up great numbers. 

 

Quinn Hughes almost helped the Canucks to the conference Finals last year. Buffalo hasn't been able to escape the basement. Buffalo has a similar level of talent to Vancouver. Quinn Hughes actually helped his team win.  

there is no comparison.  Makar is the better player now and in the future.  

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24 minutes ago, EddieVedder said:

there is no comparison.  Makar is the better player now and in the future.  

Goeth back to Seattle thou heinous spewer of grunge...

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

That dont matter quinn still has the potential to be a norris winner in this league.

Not if Makar has any thing to say. These two will be going head to head for years to come

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1 minute ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

Just more determination on Quinns part. He can do it.

Quinn holds the record for most playoff points by a rookie D.  And he’s far more ‘huggable’ :frantic:

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15 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Hughes will get it, the whole family bleeds hockey and Quinn has an excessive amount of pure talent.  He just needs a few years in the league to learn the defensive side.  He will never be an Alex Edler but with time I think he could be as good as Makar on the defensive side.  Makar is a superior player at this point as he has a more well rounded game.  But Hughes has the skill and brains to get to Makar's level I think.  We will see.

 

I'm not worried about that either. 

Okay, I'll admit I'm just pulling this out of my hockey shorts, but could it be that one of the results of him coming from a family that bleeds hockey, and having a bright agent, was that he was counciled to concentrate more on his offensive game than his defensive game in his first seasons. (Despite Baumer's direction) Get those numbers up early, because, for better or worse, D offensive numbers seem to be noticed more and valued more (Norris trophy) in the league than defensive stats.  So good to establish your offensive game first, especially if that is where your main talent lies.  Not saying he hasn't worked at all on his defensive abilities, just that if there's a choice on the ice, he's choosing offence first.  And that decision could have reasons beyond what the coaches want.  I believe he should, and will, now work harder on rounding out his game now that he has upped and established his point producing value.

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13 hours ago, Sergei Shirokov said:

I'm not comparing Hughes to Makar. For the record, the Norris trophy is always favored to the highest scoring defensemen. Playing on a better team means your in a position to load up on more points because your team always has the puck, is on the PP more, and is attacking all night vs defending all night. I think it's reasonable to say that if you play on an overall better team, your stats and play will be better. Petterson was able to put up great numbers. 

 

Quinn Hughes almost helped the Canucks to the conference Finals last year. Buffalo hasn't been able to escape the basement. Buffalo has a similar level of talent to Vancouver. Quinn Hughes actually helped his team win.  

lol so Makar doesn't help his team win? since Makar joined the colorado lineup their goals against per game went down by 0.6 per game as a team. since Hughes joined the Canucks lineup our goals against per game as a team actually gone up. Makar would put up similar points on the canucks playing with Pettersson Boeser and Miller and be far better defensively vs Hughes prolly would put up very similar numbers on Colorado but he would still be a liability on defense..

 

hockey is not just about the pure points.. who cares if u can get 100 points a season if u give up 100 goals against. tyson barrie is not going to win the norris nor nominated for the finalist just coz he tops the league in points.. and Quinn Hughes compared to Dahlin.. Buffalo is a train wreck.. they manage to turn Taylor Hall into looking like Eriksson production wise.. their forwards are lazy and don't play an ounce of defense Vancouver's player on defense looks like all stars compared to what buffalo have outside of dahlin. put him on a more respectable team even say ottawa Dahlin would have a much better career/growth

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On 6/5/2021 at 12:05 AM, wallstreetamigo said:

Svech is pretty decent at both ends of the ice.

 

The sticking point for me with Hughes is his defensive game. Its not just because he plays on a crappy team either. Its definitely imo partly because the style they are coached to play. It really doesn't fit with what he needs to do to be an effective defender with his lack of size and strength. He doesnt get to use his skills that way. 

 

Its also that to generate things offensively he has to be very aggressive which is of course his strength as an offensive player. But his defense suffers for it. 

 

Over time to be an effective defender, he needs to be better at reading when to go and when not to. Thats just time and experience. 

 

I think of Duncan Keith (I know, we all hate him lol). He was effective because he learned to use his offensive minded skills on the defensive side of the puck. Aggressive stick, skating the puck out of trouble, effective transition passing, etc. And he had a few different partners who were very solid defensively and could give him a bit more leeway to take calculated risks.

 

Hughes is smart. I think he will eventually get it. The team could help him and the whole defense accelerate that with a new defense coach and an effective partner for Quinn.

Excellent post

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On 6/5/2021 at 12:29 AM, Elias Pettersson said:

I agree with all of that.  I will add that to accelerate the defensive play of Hughes Benning will need to find him a long term partner he can grow with.  Someone like Erik Cernak.  Makar doesn't need a Cernak because he already is good defensively, but Hughes would be helped tremendously with a guy like Cernak who he can play with for the next decade.

 

I'd go all in to get a partner for Hughes.  That should be Benning's #1 priority this summer so he can speed up the development of Hughes and hopefully turn him into a Norris Trophy winner at some point in his career.  Makar I think will get there in the next year or two.  I'm hoping by age 25 Quinn will be there too.

I completely agree that one of the main priorities should be a younger, long term partner for Hughes. Cernak would be a fantastic fit I think.

 

Can the Canucks afford to pair up two younger guys and allow them to grow together? Some may say no as its a risk but I think they can and should. They have Schmidt and Myers or potentially Hamonic who could take on some of those harder minutes while Hughes and Cernak find their groove and grow into a true top pairing.

 

This is theyear that any such move for Cernak could happen. I hope Benning goes for it.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I completely agree that one of the main priorities should be a younger, long term partner for Hughes. Cernak would be a fantastic fit I think.

 

Can the Canucks afford to pair up two younger guys and allow them to grow together? Some may say no as its a risk but I think they can and should. They have Schmidt and Myers or potentially Hamonic who could take on some of those harder minutes while Hughes and Cernak find their groove and grow into a true top pairing.

 

This is theyear that any such move for Cernak could happen. I hope Benning goes for it.

Yes this is the one year the Canucks would have at least a shot at Cernak. Tampa has to figure out their cap situation. They are literally playing in the playoffs with a $100 million payroll.  
 

I think in order to get Cernak we’d have to take on Johnson’s contract. That way they take $8 million off the books right there. We would need to give them a 2nd round pick so they can get that pick back that they traded away. And a young prospect has to go the other way. They will probably ask for Woo so they get a RHD prospect back who doesn’t need ED protection. 
 

I would do that deal. I like Woo but Cernak would be a huge upgrade and would allow us to fill our biggest hole on the team, a young RHD who can play with Hughes for the next decade. 
 

If Tampa can’t figure out their cap problem they may go for it. The only issue that remains for Vancouver is how to fit Johnson under the cap for next year. Beagle on LTIR, buying out Holtby and Virtanen. Not re-signing Edler or Hamonic. Sending Eriksson and Roussel to Abbotsford. It would still be tight. 
 

With Cernak on board we’d have to expose either Schmidt or Myers. So I think the best way to fit Johnson under the cap is to give Seattle a pick or prospect to either take Schmidt or Myers. We could then potentially re-sign both Edler and Hamonic to fill the gap. 
 

That would be a lot of maneuvering for Benning but at the end of the day it would be worth it if we end up with Cernak and are still able to keep our 9OA pick. 

Edited by Elias Pettersson
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On 6/6/2021 at 8:56 AM, wallstreetamigo said:

I completely agree that one of the main priorities should be a younger, long term partner for Hughes. Cernak would be a fantastic fit I think.

 

Can the Canucks afford to pair up two younger guys and allow them to grow together? Some may say no as its a risk but I think they can and should. They have Schmidt and Myers or potentially Hamonic who could take on some of those harder minutes while Hughes and Cernak find their groove and grow into a true top pairing.

 

This is theyear that any such move for Cernak could happen. I hope Benning goes for it.

Instead of Cernak, why not go after Chicago’s Nikita Zadorov?  He’s youngish, big, and physical.    He had an off year in Chicago and so maybe we can pick him up?

 

I would also go After Ryan Graves:

 

Graves-Schmidt 

Hughes-Zadorov

Rathbone-Myers

 

THAT is a good young defense.

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2 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Instead of Cernak, why not go after Chicago’s Nikita Zadorov?  He’s youngish, big, and physical.    He had an off year in Chicago and so maybe we can pick him up?

 

I would also go After Ryan Graves:

 

Graves-Schmidt 

Hughes-Zadorov

Rathbone-Myers

 

THAT is a good young defense.

Zadorov and Graves are pretty good targets as well.

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On 6/5/2021 at 8:24 AM, Sergei Shirokov said:

You just said it makes no difference if a player plays for a crappy team or not. It makes a ton of difference being surrounded by good players, playing in a good system, with good coaches, and a good culture. 

When did I say it makes no difference at all? It just doesnt make as much difference as you pretend it does.

 

Buffalo is a train wreck, mostly because of ownership and management. Dahlin would be better off out of Buffalo like pretty much every player on their roster.

 

You claimed EP was a better player than Makar because of the teams they play on. Both get top offensive opportunity on their teams. And both play different positions too. Most GM's would take Makar over EP in a redraft just on position alone. 

 

Either could turn out to be the best player from that draft. The quality of the team they play for might impact how many points they get but points arent how actual hockey people evaluate players.

 

Makar is great offensively. He is also pretty good defensively and is being trusted with more and more on the defensive side. EP is great offensively. And he is ok defensively. But still is used mostly in an offensive role. 

 

Thats why I would give the (slight) edge to Makar. Position and well rounded game.

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  • Patel Bure changed the title to With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Rick Dhaliwal,Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

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