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With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Rick Dhaliwal,Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

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15 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

When did I say it was?

 

My point is I dont compare the Canucks to teams like Buffalo, Toronto, etc to try to suggest they are doing great. They arent.

 

I compare them to actual top teams as my standards for a GM and team is not simply to be (arguably) better than train wreck franchises.

 

I am the last person who is trying to praise the leafs. I just dont see their train wreck as proof that the Canucks hasnt been a train wreck too.

You said that they have a decent core, even though you basically acknowledge that they've been largely rolling their tires in the mud. They are a mediocre team, overall, when taking into account playoff successes.


Also, if their core was so 'decent', why have they perennially failed to make a splash in the playoffs, DESPITE having BETTER players than what Vancouver has? Meanwhile, you put so much emphasis on our wasteful bottom 6 players, who happen to outproduce their highest paid players (Matthew and Marner).
 

From what I understand from the other posters, they are pointing out your bias, specifically the one where you think Vancouver is poor, by comparing the so-called successes with the Leafs. And I feel they are right to point that out. No one here has been talking about the bottom teams like Sabres, so I don't know why you brought them up.

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42 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Nice memes.   Funny thing is at least we won a playoff round.   And beat the cup champs in six.   So how does that fit into your meme game?    Sure your might be right and maybe JB team won't ever amount to anything.    But why the hate?  One thing i've never wrapped my head around with supposed "fans" on this site.   At least the TO/MTL series outed a few posters.   

Right! It's crazy! The same old usual suspects are at it again today in this thread...doing the exact thing myself, yourself and many others are pointing out, yet yesterday, their hero phillipblunt came to the rescue and went at me for calling this group of people out and made out like i was full of it / i was the only one that had an issue with it. I'm not getting into it with them again today, but it's frustrating coming on here and they're doing the same old beating their negative agenda to death. It's too bad! 

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Just now, IRR said:

Right! It's crazy! The same old usual suspects are at it again today in this thread...doing the exact thing myself, yourself and many others are pointing out, yet yesterday, their hero phillipblunt came to the rescue and went at me for calling this group of people out and made out like i was full of it / i was the only one that had an issue with it. I'm not getting into it with them again today, but it's frustrating coming on here and they're doing the same old beating their negative agenda to death. It's too bad! 

Well, you are full of it.

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1 minute ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Well, you are full of it.

I generally like your posts, but I think this is not a very useful one.

As many of the posters have raised, the series loss of the Leafs have exposed the bias of posters on here, particularly those who are blindly critical of Benning. By blindly, I am referring to people who criticize without actually listening to the others' counterpoints.

Some posters claim to be objective, but it's funny. Those people have shown so far to be pretty biased. They don't realize it, or they don't want to acknowledge it.

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59 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

The bottom line for me is that since 2015 the celebrated "Shanaplan" has only produced 2 more playoff wins than the maligned "No-Plan Benning" with 11 to 9 and only 1 more if you want to include the play in round last year, which I don't, 13 to 12. And Vancouver has won 1 more playoff round in that time, granted it's only a ratio of 1 to 0, again 2 to 0 if you count the play in round.

 

I'm not saying one rebuild is better than the other, and yes I'm saying rebuild because even if management never said it and the anti Benning people love to cling on to that retool word, we have been rebuilding since the end of 2015. All I'm saying is that there is more than one way to successfully rebuild a team and you can't definitively say one is better than the other. 

 

We have been rebuilding basically as long as Shanahan has been and in the last 3 years we have more playoff wins. We may not have as many regular season wins or awards but just ask the players how much that Rocket Richard Trophy or Division Title means compared to the Stanley Cup.

 

Last season our team began our upward climb and we would of continued trending in that direction this season if not for us having to play 56 games in 100 days, I can't even imagine the level of exhaustion and fatigue the players felt by the end of the season. Our upward trajectory will continue next season and we will all see more of the benefit of the "No-Plan" rebuild.

Good post.

 

IMO, Shanaplan started to go sideways when they signed Tavares to 11 mil, triggering a chain of events resulting in Matthews at 11, Marner at 10, and Nylander at 7.

 

You can't possibly pay that much money to young players that haven't learned how to win in the playoffs yet. They have literally no grit and are not clutch and just flat out have no idea how to play in the pressure moments because no veteran leadership was around to show them the way when they joined the team. They just had it their way, relying on their skill to score in the regular season and are hitting the brick walls now realizing what worked in the regular season isn't working for them in the playoffs. 

 

On the contrary, we all saw the fire in EP, QH, Horvat, Boeser, and Demko in the playoffs. Each of those guys can and have taken over games to carry the team to wins in the bubble last year. What I liked the most was that our guys were literally enjoying playing under pressure. EP taking over the game. Bo going on a bull rush. Demko's clutch saves. 

 

I think JB did the right thing by surrounding them with the veterans have who have shown the way. Marky and his competitiveness and guys like Miller, Beagle, Edler, Tanev, and Sutter have also shown the kids the right way to play and supported them by sharing some of the hardest minutes shutting down the opposing players. Under proper veteran leadership, our guys grew together and learned to play for each other.

 

Although JB gets a lot of crap for having no plan, the plan has always been to draft well so that we can inject youth every season and get players in certain age group to fill certain roles. Horvat in 2014-15, Virtanen/McCann in 2015-16, Boeser in 2017-18, EP in 2018-19, QH in 2019-20, Hoglander in 2020-21, and Podkolzin in 2021-22. The only exception was 2016-17 season, where OJ didn't develop as expected due to injuries but he and Rathbone will arrive in 2021-22 along with Podkolzin.

 

Because we never intentionally tanked like Toronto, we never got a 1st overall or even a top 3 pick. So, we don't know how soon some of our players will be ready to join the team and what kind of player they will become. So the plan has to be flexible and adaptable to what we are given year in and year out and that's why you go out and get veteran players to share the load and to earn time for the young guys to develop. Unfortunately, we were handed $hit hand last off-season and there was literally zero flexibility, resulting in taking a step back. 

 

Now, we sort of know what we have in the core. We need to re-sign key RFAs to team friendly deals and tinker around with the bottom 6 and improve RD to build a roster that can consistently succeed both in the regular season and the playoffs.

 

Admittedly, losing Tanev (perfect RD partner for Hughes) and Toffoli (two-way top 6 winger with knack for scoring goals) was a mistake on JB's part and so he needs to fix it this off season. He's got a lot of work cut out for him -- but maybe less so than Dubas, who should seriously considering trading one of Marner and Matthews. You can't go 5 straight years of failing in the playoffs, tinkering around the bottom of the roster and deny that the problem is with your core.

 

If Dubas can make the right moves, he may just be able to solve the Leafs playoff woes. If I were Dubas, I'd keep the hometown kid Marner and trade Matthews for a massive haul. Much of Matthews games is based on that wrist shot, which against a playoff goalie in top form and defensive structure designed to limit those shots, it's not as effective as in the regular season. Marner does more, including killing penalties and making plays. 

 

Regarding Seth Jones rumours, I'd consider Matthews for Jones+. CBJ has plenty of players that can make the Leafs harder to play against than Matthews.

 

Or even Matthews for OEL++. Could get Hayton level prospect included in a trade who could step in shortly and take over 2C spot behind Tavares.

 

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2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

I generally like your posts, but I think this is not a very useful one.

To each their own. When someone labels me incorrectly without any real proof, they tend to prove that they're full of it. 

2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

As many of the posters have raised, the series loss of the Leafs have exposed the bias of posters on here, particularly those who are blindly critical of Benning. By blindly, I am referring to people who criticize without actually listening to the others' counterpoints.

That criticizing without listening to other counterpoints is evident on both sides of this particular debate, yet most only see it as indicative of one side. 

 

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I didn't watch the playoffs and when I saw the headlines the other day about the Leafs' loss to Canadiens in Game 7, I laughed at them of my first reaction.  I knew that lack of depth will be their undoing. 

 

An expensive free agents is not he way to go.  A reasonable free agent signings at this point forward for the Canucks will be cheaper depth to shore up any holes in the line-up when veterans' contract coming off the book  The Canucks forward group is set  for years to come and their only glaring weakness is the defensemen depth.  The playoffs is a different beast as it's proven time again and again, the intensity of the series tend to be three-fold ramped up and if star players are not bringing it, the team is more likely to lose.  Benning did a good job rebuilding the team and this team will be better off slowing building their team patently.  No need for a rash decision. 

 

The Leafs lacked foundation and hurried to tank in order to get their man and there's too many holes in other aspect of the game.  Habits still creeps in their games because of losing culture that lasted a decade and by the time they started to get better, the next obstacle is the playoffs.  

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

It's entirely possible, that the next Canadian teams to give hope to all Canadians will be Vancouver and Ottawa.   Right not WNP, EDM, MTL and TO hold the mantle.   But every single one of them is flawed too.   Flawed in time.   TO knows their window is closing.  And that all-in year after to year just to win a series is going to bite them in the ass.  WNP has some staying power but their window is now and the next couple of years.    Maybe they can extend it time will tell.   MTL is a mish mash.  Like NYR and partially because of their avid market (like NYR) they just won't make it.    This might be their best chance right now, same as WNP.    EDM is cap flawed.    Too easy to shut one of the two down ... all it takes.   For me at least, Van and OTT have the best chances of emerging into the next great white North hopes. 

There's no such thing. The next CDN team to win the cup wins it just for that city/province. We know this from 2011, 95% of the CDNs cheered for Foston.

 

I used to like the Habs and Sens but for me, that was over in 2011. I don't cheer for any CDN team, well unless it's against the Leafs because it's fun to see the Leafs lose.

 

I'd cheer for the Avs before any CDN team and I hate the Avs since Sakic days when they pounded us + Bertuzzi incident.

 

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2 hours ago, aGENT said:

tenor.gif

 

Move Nylander for a D back when/before he sat out, that trickles down to Matthews and Marner taking less and having a better D and likely being able to keep a Kapanen and/or other support pieces.

 

I'm also not convinced Matthews is a 'championship' player, as good as he is. So there's that too. I half wonder if they should just bite the bullet on that... He'd return a HELL of a hall if management came to the same conclusion...

 

And then there's the hubris of thinking they could break the curse of Thorton.

OK now everything makes sense as to why they played the worst game of the season in GM 7 in the playoffs.

 

Matthews kind of reminds me of Thornton. They both ain't going to get things done in the playoffs.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, khay said:

There's no such thing. The next CDN team to win the cup wins it just for that city/province. We know this from 2011, 95% of the CDNs cheered for Foston.

 

I used to like the Habs and Sens but for me, that was over in 2011. I don't cheer for any CDN team, well unless it's against the Leafs because it's fun to see the Leafs lose.

 

I'd cheer for the Avs before any CDN team and I hate the Avs since Sakic days when they pounded us + Bertuzzi incident.

 

I feel like Winnipeg was one place we had support during 2011 since a lot of the people there were fans of the players who graduated from the Moose. Whereas I agree with your sentiment especially coming from Montreal since a lot seemed to cheer for their own rivals over us, I feel Winnipeg is one Canadian team I would cheer for to win. 

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I am happy the Leafs lost.

 

At the same time, I think it is a huge logical mistake to somehow suggest that because they lost, we are somehow better?  That seems to be the idea here.  Those things aren’t connected at all.

 

Our team is worse than the Leafs right now.

 

I would rather have our team going forward than theirs.  Folks defend Benning by saying the pandemic and flat cap completely destroyed all his plans.

 

There probably isn’t a team worse off due to an ongoing flat cap for an expected several more years than Toronto is.  They signed their big players to huge contracts assuming that cap inflation would make them better deals down the road.  That isn’t just a Toronto thing, all teams do it... but Toronto just happened to do it more and at the wrong time.  Those contracts instead of getting better over time are going to stay overpaid and badly effect how they can build out the rest of their roster.  They aren’t always going to have a bunch of veterans come in and rescue them by playing for low dollars.

 

In our situation, our top guys are coming up for contracts during the worst economic conditions the NHL is likely to be in.  Everyone expects there will be an effectively flat cap for the next 3-5 years.  Presumably we will be able to negotiate extensions under those new realities.  Instead of paying $10 million and $8 million respectively for Petterson and Hughes, we are probably going to be more like $7-7.5 and $6-6.5 (hopefully for longer than a 3 year bridge term). The flexibility that will give us moving forward will be immense IF those two players continue to develop.

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Just now, gurn said:

If you would rather have our team than theirs, does that not mean we are better?:unsure:

The Canucks seem like more of an actual team that plays together. 

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They scaring the fans with the flat cap for 5 years but i dont see how the NHL cant produce more income in different ways to avoid it tho. Get more involved in the gambling side, generate more income in different ways. They have to have someone with a brain around there to improve the selling of the game. Damn NFL gonna raise their cap by 25 mill next year for gods sake, figure something out bettman.

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As much as I hate the leafs they can still be a dangerous playoff contender.  Their Matthew’s and Marners need to be willing to adapt to playoff hockey and score goals in the greasy areas of the ice.  Mainly just need a change on mentality.   Make no mistake though this was their easiest run to the conference finals. The remaining contract years for Marner and Matthew’s they will be going against strong Tampa and Florida panthers teams.  Boston has 1-2 more years of relevance and Montreal will be in the mix just to get out of their own division.  

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38 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

You said that they have a decent core, even though you basically acknowledge that they've been largely rolling their tires in the mud. They are a mediocre team, overall, when taking into account playoff successes.


Also, if their core was so 'decent', why have they perennially failed to make a splash in the playoffs, DESPITE having BETTER players than what Vancouver has? Meanwhile, you put so much emphasis on our wasteful bottom 6 players, who happen to outproduce their highest paid players (Matthew and Marner).
 

From what I understand from the other posters, they are pointing out your bias, specifically the one where you think Vancouver is poor, by comparing the so-called successes with the Leafs. And I feel they are right to point that out. No one here has been talking about the bottom teams like Sabres, so I don't know why you brought them up.

People tend to attribute their own bias to anything I post. Like you are doing here. 

 

I am not a fan of the Leafs or preaching about successes they have had. I am thefurthest thing from a Leaf supporter. 

 

The Leafs do have a decent core. So do the Canucks. I am not comparing the two teams to justify anything like many here are. Thats my point. Its possible that the Leafs plan can suck and the Canucks plan can suck too. One has literally no bearing on the other.

 

The Leafs are mediocre. Never said they arent. But the Leafs being mediocre doesnt mean the Canucks are better. The Canucks haven't even been mediocre for many years.

 

Its a false equivalency to suggest that other teams failures make the Canucks failures any less significant. 

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2 minutes ago, flat land fish said:

As much as I hate the leafs they can still be a dangerous playoff contender.  Their Matthew’s and Marners need to be willing to adapt to playoff hockey and score goals in the greasy areas of the ice.  Mainly just need a change on mentality.   Make no mistake though this was their easiest run to the conference finals. The remaining contract years for Marner and Matthew’s they will be going against strong Tampa and Florida panthers teams.  Boston has 1-2 more years of relevance and Montreal will be in the mix just to get out of their own division.  

I fail to see how Toronto can still be a dangerous playoff contender. They've had numerous chances to prove this and have come up short every time. They need to trade one of their big ticket players for a legit number one defenseman to have any chance of advancing. Matthews and Marner have to actually have the cajones to show up and lead by example instead of clearing the puck over the glass every time. I think of how Bo took it to the Blues last during that playoff series. If either Matthews or Marner showed half that fire, they might very well be in a different position. If Marner stood up to hits the way Pettersson has (especially those sweet reverse hits), they'd be better off. 

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1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

People tend to attribute their own bias to anything I post. Like you are doing here. 

 

I am not a fan of the Leafs or preaching about successes they have had. I am thefurthest thing from a Leaf supporter. 

 

The Leafs do have a decent core. So do the Canucks. I am not comparing the two teams to justify anything like many here are. Thats my point. Its possible that the Leafs plan can suck and the Canucks plan can suck too. One has literally no bearing on the other.

 

The Leafs are mediocre. Never said they arent. But the Leafs being mediocre doesnt mean the Canucks are better. The Canucks haven't even been mediocre for many years.

 

Its a false equivalency to suggest that other teams failures make the Canucks failures any less significant. 

You're STILL missing the point.


The underlying message has been that the Leafs' retool plan has been said to be THE EXAMPLE of how to build a perennial winner. Many of the posters, including yourself, have commented a lot about the two teams, but you specifically have stopped short of acknowledging the media bias in comparing the two teams. To unpack this further, media pundits have praised the Leafs for building a contender, all the while crapping on Vancouver's efforts.

 

So if they're both mediocre, why are you putting so much emphasis on the Canucks wasting money on the bottom 6, while emphasizing the successes of Toronto as you have done earlier in the thread?

These are direct questions, and not insinuations.

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1 hour ago, 204CanucksFan said:

I think WPG is much more sustainable than TOR, EDM and maybe MTL simply because they have a lot of guys like Scheifele, Ehlers, Connor, Hellebuyck and Morrissey locked up to long term and team friendly contracts, the only one current contract that is going to look bad very soon is paying Wheeler $8.25 mil until he's 38. Then it will all boil down to what kind of contract Dubios demands and how well their top D prospects pan out.

 

MTL I'm not sure about again it'll come down to the next contracts for Kotkaniemi and Suzuki as well as what they end up doing with Danault and how Caufield turns out, he looks pretty good so far.

 

OTT is another crap shoot as they seem to be in a perpetual rebuild because they have an owner that never wants to spend to the cap and won't shell out any big money for his young players when they develop in to bona fide stars so he just trades them for more picks and prospects instead, because they are cheap. He seems to want to win with an entire team on ELCs or bridge deals.

 

EDM has no depth and tried to speed things up too much after getting McDavid and having Draisaitl turn in to a home run. Then add in the contracts they have with Neal and Kassian and the fact that Nuge, Barrie, Nurse, Puljujarvi and Klefbom (if he fully recovers) will all be looking for new contracts and probably raises on those contracts before Kass and Neal's Co tracts are up.

 

TOR is obviously all in right now. They have to win and do it as quickly as possible. They have 3 more years before Matthews walks as a 26 year old UFA. Campbell seems like he could allow them to let Anderson walk which would give them a little more financial flexibility but the biggest issue is going to be the big raise Reilly is going to want. He definitely going to want to be paid more than Brodie $5m and Muzzin $5.625m 

 

VAN is going to really depend on what happens this off season. Will our RFAs be willing to take team friendly deals, preferably long term a la WPG and can we find some cheap and effective contracts in the bottom of the line up while simply being patient enough to just let our current overpaid contracts expire instead of buying them out and prolonging the cap hit for a short term gain and nailing it on our 1st and 2nd round picks this summer wouldn't hurt either. If our core are willing to take less money as a whole to allow management to keep them all together we could be set up very well for a very long time. Especially with Friedmann reporting in his latest 31 Thoughts that it's sounding like the cap will remain flat through 2024-25.

WNP was supposed to be the next great Canadian team.  Losing their old core all at once was a massive blow, and it's a testament to what a new great core can sustain.   THN had them pegged back in 2017-2018 as the next great contender in the entire league.   Poink coming out of nowhere helped ... but at the time their R side was considered the best in the entire league.   And Laine was looking like one heck of a future scoring winger.   Plus Schieffle, one of the most underrated C's in the league, Wheeler more of the same (underrated big, playoff material etc)...Conner..Ehlers at the time Stastny was still close to around etc.   Well balanced to a tee and better cone playoff time.    The fact they can survive that hit is pretty incredible.   Think the trade for PLD was a good one. 

 

And yes agree they just won't lie down but time isn't on their side anymore as much as time is on our side and OTT side.  Which i guess was my point.   Still feel Van and OTT have the best chances in the 2020's of doing something and becoming something special.   EP is close to breaking out.   Fourth year is usually when it happens, BB was our first half MVP really and shows why you don't let these guys go.   Demko proved he's legit.   Still needs more time but not worried about him.   Horvat like Linden so far, has shown post season is plus plus plus.    

 

Podz is the secret weapon.   Not worried about support players too much, we have those coming.   Our D is where things start unravelling.   QHs and OJ and or Rathone and or Woo need to work  out or the extra funds have to be spent there.    We are better then the results of this season.    And we are only going to get better.  

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2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

You're STILL missing the point.


The underlying message has been that the Leafs' retool plan has been said to be THE EXAMPLE of how to build a perennial winner. Many of the posters, including yourself, have commented a lot about the two teams, but you specifically have stopped short of acknowledging the media bias in comparing the two teams. To unpack this further, media pundits have praised the Leafs for building a contender, all the while crapping on Vancouver's efforts.

 

So if they're both mediocre, why are you putting so much emphasis on the Canucks wasting money on the bottom 6, while emphasizing the successes of Toronto as you have done earlier in the thread?

These are direct questions, and not insinuations.

The plan is fine, it's the execution that has not been good.

 

As I already identified, many other teams like Tampa Bay, Colorado, Carolina employ an analytics-based approach like Toronto does.  Seems to be working thus far for them.

Hope this helps.

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  • Patel Bure changed the title to With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Rick Dhaliwal,Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

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