With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Rick Dhaliwal,Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

[Nuxfanabroad]

40 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Its possible that the Leafs rebuild plan failed and so did the Canucks. One has no impact on the other.

 

They have lost in the first round a lot, which gives me great joy, but the Canucks havent even made the playoffs more than once on a play in. Hard to slag the Leafs for winning nothing yet and at the same time praising the Canucks for winning nothing yet.

 

What the Canucks do this offseason will be a huge determining factor in how their plan will ultimately judged. If they make the same moves as previously, it will likely continue to flounder. If they do things differently and effectively, maybe they csn turn it around and start being successful.

That's a red herring. Two different paths were taken here, & only one involved wise patience.

[canuckster19]

1 hour ago, Tom Sestito said:

A plan can be good in theory but poor in execution. 

 

Matthews contract is poor in term because he can bolt early in his eligibility & Marner is overpaid.

 

They made a lot of poor pro scouting decisions on the back end and in the bottom six (Zaitsev and Barrie among the most notable ones defensively). 

 

They rode out babcock for too long and the players hated him. Keefe OTOH was a rookie coach coming into a win-now situation which was a poor hire to make. I don't have an issue with a rookie coach growing with a group of players, but you can't bring one into a win-now situation.

 

So yes, lots of poor decisions. 

 

One thing to be careful with is that the Leafs failed because they've set a higher bar. Make no mistake, they've absolutely failed. The first two years, they weren't expected to win. The 3rd year was a 50/50 series and the last two should have been sweeps considering the roster differences. Underperforming stars - it happens. 

 

But, it's also a mistake to just simply look at a failing organization and be like "yeah we're better than them." For me, I want to be at the level of a team like Colorado, Tampa, Carolina etc.. Not the LOL Leafs. That doesn't take away that I think their plan in theory was better than the retool on the fly plan from this management group.

Wow, you must be tired from the mental gymnastics that took.

[Patel Bure]

25 minutes ago, c00kies said:

Oh 100% the injuries killed us in 2011, but people overlooked the injuries because it didn't fit the narrative they wanted. 

If you ask most people about Game 7 from 2011, people will spin the narrative that the Bruins battered us around and completely dominated us......except they didn’t.   We outshot them like 37-21, and outhit them by like 49-26.  Boston simply capitalized on their opportunities better than we did in that game.  
 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/201106150VAN.html

Edited June 1, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Cromeslab]

After the media smear this season I question all reports even members of the so called PHWA

[Tom Sestito]

8 minutes ago, canuckster19 said:

Wow, you must be tired from the mental gymnastics that took.

Which mental gymnastics? I said the leafs failed to meet the expectations they set and pointed out numerous flaws that no one here would disagree with. 

 

They failed in execution. 

 

So uh, what's the mental gymnastics here?

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

2 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I notice Dumb Nuck is not on here talking how great Toronto is, and how it's an example of a "proper" rebuild. 

Sympathy sex

[fanfor42]

22 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

If you ask most people about Game 7 from 2011, people will spin the narrative that the Bruins battered us around and completely dominated us......except they didn’t.   We outshot them like 37-21, and outhit them by like 49-26.  Boston simply capitalized on their opportunities better than we did in that game.  
 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/201106150VAN.html

Lol. Every Canuck fan remembers that game well.  Perimeter shots. No real chances.  Not really in it.

 

Boston was full value for the win that day. 

 

You are misremembering partner. But big balls for the attempt to rewrite history. Lol.

 

 

[Patel Bure]

17 minutes ago, fanfor42 said:

Lol. Every Canuck fan remembers that game well.  Perimeter shots. No real chances.  Not really in it.

 

Boston was full value for the win that day. 

 

You are misremembering partner. But big balls for the attempt to rewrite history. Lol.

 

 

I don't remember it that way at all but I'm open to analyzing the advanced stats.   

 

Do you happen to have a link to them by any chance?   (more specifically, the overall high danger chances?).    

 

This is all I have so far:

 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/matchup/_/gameId/310615022

 

p.s._________I'm not saying that Boston wasn't full value for the win that day.  They definitely were.  My argument is that they didn't "dominate" the Canucks in that game 7 in the manner that many people seem to think.  The shots, overall puck possession time, and hits, seems to imply otherwise.    @fanfor42

Edited June 1, 2021 by Patel Bure

[CptCanuck16]

Wait, whos blowing who again? 

[AV.]

Anyways, the Leafs have it right.   The execution is off but their philosophy is bang on.  Much like Carolina, Tampa Bay, Colorado - all similar teams - the Leafs believe in the same principles.

 

We should follow suit.

[Bertuzzipunch]

1 minute ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Anyways, the Leafs have it right.   The execution is off but their philosophy is bang on.  Much like Carolina, Tampa Bay, Colorado - all similar teams - the Leafs believe in the same principles.

 

We should follow suit.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Its possible that the Leafs rebuild plan failed and so did the Canucks. One has no impact on the other.

 

They have lost in the first round a lot, which gives me great joy, but the Canucks havent even made the playoffs more than once on a play in. Hard to slag the Leafs for winning nothing yet and at the same time praising the Canucks for winning nothing yet.

 

What the Canucks do this offseason will be a huge determining factor in how their plan will ultimately judged. If they make the same moves as previously, it will likely continue to flounder. If they do things differently and effectively, maybe they csn turn it around and start being successful.

The Leafs haven’t won a playoff round since 2003. The Canucks have won 8 during that same period and went to the finals. The two teams are trending in completely different directions. 
 

The Leafs have been rebuilding for the better part of 17 years. Waiting an extra year or two for Benning to do his thing after 7 years doesn’t seem so bad after all. 
 

At the very least Benning can shed cap next year and retool for 2022. Dubas meanwhile will be stuck with albatross contracts for several more years and most likely will lose his best player for nothing to Arizona in 3 years. 
 

The Leafs are an unmitigated disaster. That’s what happens when your owner is a Pension Plan. 
 

 

[Dazzle]

3 minutes ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

I do find it hilarious that certain posters are just making hilarious excuses.

Their "philosophy" is spot on, huh? Have two players making 10M+ and they only have 1 goal between the two of them? Riiiiiiiiiight.

 

Their team isn't any better built than Vancouver's. They had a good season, that's for sure. But they also didn't have COVID running through our team. They also didn't have a poor practice schedule. My point with this is that their 'success' for their rebuild has been vastly overstated.

[buddhahoodlum]

2 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

If you want to feel bad for the Leafs, that’s perfectly within your right, but you may want to be alerted to the following:

 

When the Bruins defeated the Canucks ten years ago in the cup finals, 95% of Leaf fans were cheering the Bruins at the bars (source:  650 Sportsnet).  Oilers and Flames fans behaved in the same manner.  Alberta’s “960 The Fan” even took very personal shots at guys like Alex Burrows that extended beyond hockey.
 

When the riots took place that night, the entire city was painted in a terrible light by the Albertan and Torontonian media.   The fact that thousands upon thousands of good Vancouverites cleaned up the vandalism a few days later was largely ignored by these three cities for the most part, and the vast majority of good law abiding Vancouverites were lumped in with the hooligans.  The city of Toronto had the choice and opportunity to make this rather crucial distinction and stick up for its fellow Canadians, but chose not to.

 

Still want to feel sorry for the Leafs?  

Yup, and for that reason and that reason alone I will never cheer for the Oilers or Flames. My hatred for Toronto however started long before 2011. I will say I have softened slightly towards the Oilers for the respect they showed the Sedins in their last game.

[Patel Bure]

2 hours ago, Viper007 said:

Toronto 2021 Playoffs

 

Austin Matthews - 1 Goal - 11.64 M Cap Hit

Mitch Marner - 0 Goals - 10.903 M Cap Hit

 

Total - 1 Goal - 22.543 M Cap Hit (Still with TO till 2024)

 

 

Vancouver 2020 Playoffs

 

Jay Beagle - 1 Goal - 3 M Cap Hit

Antoine Roussel - 2 Goals - 3 M Cap Hit

Brandon Sutter - 1 Goal - 4.375 M Cap Hit

Loui Eriksson - 0 Goals - 6 M Cap Hit

 

Total - 4 Goals - 16.375 M Cap Hit  (All Gone by 2022)

 

For all those that complain about our bad cap hits, you get these Toronto players who perform so well when it is the most important time of the year. LOL!

 

And the think to bear in mind is that our “bad cap hits” will come off the books *before* we enter our window (as was originally designed), while Toronto’s over-allocated cap towards its top players will ensure that they likely never make it past the conference finals.  
 

[Patel Bure]

3 minutes ago, buddhahoodlum said:

Yup, and for that reason and that reason alone I will never cheer for the Oilers or Flames. My hatred for Toronto however started long before 2011. I will say I have softened slightly towards the Oilers for the respect they showed the Sedins in their last game.

To your last sentence, that I must admit as well and I had completely forgotten about that. 
 

With regards to Toronto, I lived there from 2013-2015.   I can pretty much guarantee you that If Toronto and Vancouver’s “MLB situation” was reversed (ie instead of Toronto and Seattle having MLB teams, Vancouver and Buffalo had MLB teams instead), that the mass majority of fans in Toronto would support Buffalo over Vancouver, with TSN and Sportsnet showing far more Buffalo games over Vancouver.  
 

I was a bit too young during the 90’s but the lack of Montreal Expos coverage at the time was truly disgusting.  Ditto for the Vancouver Grizzlies relative to the Raptors coverage.  As residents of the beautiful Pacific Northwest, do we even get much access to Seattle Mariners games these days?

Edited June 1, 2021 by Patel Bure

[buddhahoodlum]

2 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

I see what you’re saying to an extent, but I’m not sure if I agree with completely about Matthew’s and Marner.

 

Both players are wonderful hockey players, as is Tavares.   Toronto’s biggest problem however is that they paid everyone premium money before having won anything!   
 

If you look at all of the cup winners since 2010, all of these teams had their core players on relatively low AAV% post RFA deals.  
 

Toronto’s biggest problem is that they paid HUGE for Tavares (an outsider) BEFORE signing Matthews, Marner, Nylander, etc., and so of course none of those guys would have been willing to adhere to an internal cap structure to encourage “buy in” (to serve the greater good).  Why would they?  Lol.  
 

As the last eleven years have proven, teams with cost controlled elite talent + bigger investment in depth will always annihilate a top heavy team with a gross over-alloted cap toward its star players.

 

Its one of the reasons why Pittsburgh played second fiddle to LA, Chicago, and Boston from 2010-2015.  It’s one of the reasons why Mackinnon’s Avalanche is far superior to McDavid’s Oilers.  Who would you rather have?  Mackinnon at 6 million, or McDavid at 12?   
 

Cap hits and AAV’s are king.  Everyone has to get paid eventually (as Chicago and La’s players did), but teams need to create that window in which everyone has a really effing good cap hit!    

This is where the Canucks will be on October 1st 2022.  All by design.

Or to put it differently would you rather have 2 MacKinnon's or 1 McJesus?

[MrCanuck94]

Pretty unfair way to look at it. I dislike the Leafs as much as the next person, but Dubas has done a fine job since taking over. He like every GM has made some mistakes, I didn't agree with the 3 11 mill contracts, but he's done a good job surrounding the team and being able to adapt in the off seasons. The first line underperformed and on top the injuries to Tavares and Muzzin didn't help. As the saying goes, anything can happen in the playoffs. Some players get hot and some get cold.

 

Just because a different team had a shortfall doesn't mean it discounts our short falls. As I've mentioned before, I'm not a Benning hater or lover, but we have to acknowledge the good and bad moves. He's been below average in free agency, average in trades and really good at drafting. I don't have full trust in him this upcoming off season but I'm hoping for the best as this is a crucial moment for our franchise moving forward.

 

The 650 and Athletic teams are good guys. They have reasons and information behind their suggestions. I don't always agree with them but they always make fair points.

 

Best teams in the league can lose, 8th place teams can get hot and win. Sports are unpredictable. As long as the GM is doing a good job at putting their team in the best position to succeed and continually adapting and being creative, that's what should be acknowledged.

 

Here's to a good off season for the Canucks and us to be cheering the team on a year from now! 

[Patel Bure]

20 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Anyways, the Leafs have it right.   The execution is off but their philosophy is bang on.  Much like Carolina, Tampa Bay, Colorado - all similar teams - the Leafs believe in the same principles.

 

We should follow suit.

You are ‘Exquisite’ from HF.  

[Bertuzzipunch]

19 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

I do find it hilarious that certain posters are just making hilarious excuses.

Their "philosophy" is spot on, huh? Have two players making 10M+ and they only have 1 goal between the two of them? Riiiiiiiiiight.

 

Their team isn't any better built than Vancouver's. They had a good season, that's for sure. But they also didn't have COVID running through our team. They also didn't have a poor practice schedule. My point with this is that their 'success' for their rebuild has been vastly overstated.

The leafs have the best philosophy LOSE IN THE FIRST ROUND ITS THE BEST PHILOSOPHY IN THE HISTORY OF PHILOSOPHY!!!! 
 

we all need to copy that philosophy

 

Hope this Helps-AV

Edited June 1, 2021 by Bertuzzipunch