Hogtown-Implosion Should Assist JB

[lmm]

35 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Drafting doesnt exist in a vacuum though. Where you draft matters too. And the trade off to draft high has been a terrible team resukts wise.

 

To properly judge a GM's drafting record, if your goal is to declare them the difference maker in hitting homeruns, you have to factor in where the players they drafted were projected to go in addition to where they went and how they ultimately turned out.

 

The only crystal clear example of a major drafting coup in the early rounds is drafting Petterssen a few spots above where he was projected to go. He turned out to be a clear homerun.

 

Hughes, Podkolzin, McCann, Boeser, Demko, Hoglander, etc were all taken within the expected range they would be. Juolevi and Virtanen were by position stretch picks at the time and hindsight has not changed that.

 

Some of his later picks have apparently not been as good as we all hoped. If they were, they would not have been let go for little or nothing in return. Others still may be very clear homeruns but the jury is still out.

 

Overall drafting has been a strength of Benning's time as GM. He deserves credit for doing a good job there, particularly in direct comparison to previous Canucks GM's. 

I agree with most of that,

but If we think we shouldn't compare Jim to Bad  GMs, we shouldn't compare his drafting to very many former Cancuk gms either.

 

I still think a clone of Gillis/Benning would make one good GM

[wallstreetamigo]

37 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

"Have to this, & have to that"...I don't know? Personally find such language suggestive of a highly-regimented, somewhat militaristic approach.

 

First, I like to remember this is(mostly) entertainment, for the viewing public's enjoyment. Different markets seem to derive pleasure from watching diff types of players. Of course, everyone wants to win(doesn't need to be stated). Unfortunately, many great teams will not go all the way, especially where there will be 31 competitors.

 

Drafting has been such a thorn(historically) in Van's butt, it's a pleasure for me to finally see a GM who's got a Toyota assembly line consistently turning out quality product.

 

Maybe it's more of an inexact art, as opposed to precise science, after all? Don't know? I don't make/design the widgets.

 

Just simply a (currently) satisfied, end-consumer. I like the current product, & think it'll only improve over the coming yrs.

 

Now, hopefully they'll lock it in affordably!

I wasnt really saying any of this.

 

I was saying that context matters in assessing the impact a GM actually had on drafting. A lot of other factors do play a role.

 

I was responding to someone proclaiming Benning one of the best drafting GM's in history.

 

The fact is that his drafting can only truly be assessed many years down the road based on what impact it actually ends up accomplishing, and its insane to suggest otherwise.

 

I like his drafting overall. Do I think its the greatest of all time? Not even close at this point. His drafting has produced no actual winning results yet. And 2 of his high 1st round picks were clearly bad choices, both at the time and especially in hindsight. He has a ways to go to compare to some of the legendary drafting GM's imo.

Edited June 2, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[lmm]

4 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

No, I was contrasting what I feel is their misguided manoeuvres/strategies(which the lamestream media portrayed as ambrosia), with our GM's gradual, patient approach. Feeling their dramatic implosion further reinforces we oughta' keep sailing our chosen course.

 

It's good their overpaid prima-donnas served bagels, just as 2 of our key young stars must sit down to talk numbers.

 

& next I appreciate you've taken time to highlight B Torrey's fine work. Pls feel free to transfer all that over to(JB in Historical Context) should you feel like contributing over there. A good day! :^)

speaking of Bill Torrey 

I just found this gem

1974 draft Picks Gillies at 4, arguably the best player taken in the top 6 (Maybe W Paiment)

1974 take Trottier in the second round, probably the best player in the draft next to Harold Snepsts

misses his pick in the 3rd, Brad Anderson taken 2 spots after Bob Bourne. 

So Torrey trades 2 plugs(Crashley + Hornung) for Bourne Sept 13, 1974  from KC Scouts (schooled Sid Abel on that one) and Bourne goes on to play 900+ games and win Cups with the Isles

that is pretty shrewed GMing, knowing who you want in the draft and getting them no matter

That is Sam Pollock shrewed

 

But never mind me, you are talking about the Leafs

I guess because you get ticked by watching their sports feed too often

 

i can barely stand Donnie and Dhali, I don't worry much about Cox (Deb's favorite) and the rest of the Toronto fan boys

 

[Nuxfanabroad]

1 minute ago, lmm said:

speaking of Bill Torrey 

I just found this gem

1974 draft Picks Gillies at 4, arguably the best player taken in the top 6 (Maybe W Paiment)

1974 take Trottier in the second round, probably the best player in the draft next to Harold Snepsts

misses his pick in the 3rd, Brad Anderson taken 2 spots after Bob Bourne. 

So Torrey trades 2 plugs(Crashley + Hornung) for Bourne Sept 13, 1974  from KC Scouts (schooled Sid Abel on that one) and Bourne goes on to play 900+ games and win Cups with the Isles

that is pretty shrewed GMing, knowing who you want in the draft and getting them no matter

That is Sam Pollock shrewed

 

But never mind me, you are talking about the Leafs

I guess because you get ticked by watching their sports feed too often

 

i can barely stand Donnie and Dhali, I don't worry much about Cox (Deb's favorite) and the rest of the Toronto fan boys

 

Being in Japan I don't really have opinions on local Van media. Also don't like to contribute too many mins of any day to sport media talking heads; but hockey's a drug I've struggled with since childhood!

 

Personally feel getting wrapped up in this 24/7 sporting existence, can somewhat distort one's perception of reality..but then on Fridays I ride a Unicorn to work.

 

We Van fans need patience, & a healthy sense of apocalyptic humour. Posting here, I've tried(in vain, I'd imagine) to contribute to these necessities. We're all here trying to scale K2 in the worst conceivable conditions. We must eventually accept death, & that we'll likely never see the summit.

[wallstreetamigo]

19 minutes ago, lmm said:

I agree with most of that,

but If we think we shouldn't compare Jim to Bad  GMs, we shouldn't compare his drafting to very many former Cancuk gms either.

 

I still think a clone of Gillis/Benning would make one good GM

My comparisons for any Canucks GM, whether its drafting or any other aspect of their job, is with the top GM's, not the bottom ones.

 

Comparing Benning to Gillis, etc is a useless comparison. In drafting Benning clobbers him. But in many other aspects, Gillis clobbers Benning. In some, both are pretty bad.

 

Benning/Gillis hybrid would be a good GM overall imo.

 

[lmm]

4 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Being in Japan I don't really have opinions on local Van media. Also don't like to contribute too many mins of any day to sport media talking heads; but hockey's a drug I've struggled with since childhood!

 

Personally feel getting wrapped up in this 24/7 sporting existence, can somewhat distort one's perception of reality..but then on Fridays I ride a Unicorn to work.

 

We Van fans need patience, & a healthy sense of apocalyptic humour. Posting here, I've tried(in vain, I'd imagine) to contribute to these necessities. We're all here trying to scale K2 in the worst conceivable conditions. We must eventually accept death, & that we'll likely never see the summit.

yes

yes 

and 

yes

you made  me laugh because its all true

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by lmm

[NewbieCanuckFan]

9 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

My comparisons for any Canucks GM, whether its drafting or any other aspect of their job, is with the top GM's, not the bottom ones.

 

Comparing Benning to Gillis, etc is a useless comparison. In drafting Benning clobbers him. But in many other aspects, Gillis clobbers Benning. In some, both are pretty bad.

 

Benning/Gillis hybrid would be a good GM overall imo.

 

The problem isn't who the GM is but who he's surrounded himself with.  You need proper supporting staff.  Not freaking Weisbrod.  Benning can't be everywhere/do everything.  Nobody can.  Brian Burke had Dave Nonis.  Pat Quinn had Brian Burke.

Edited June 2, 2021 by NewbieCanuckFan

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

The problem isn't who the GM is but who he's surrounded himself with.  You need proper supporting staff.  Not freaking Weisbrod.  Benning can't be everywhere/do everything.  Nobody can.

The gutting of the front office and the centralization of power with 2 guys is one of my biggest criticisms. Good GM's empower their employees and give them autonomy to focus on their job so the GM doesnt have to duplicate their work or micro manage the entire process.

 

Benning and Weisbrod need a President to answer to. 

[Patel Bure]

2 hours ago, Johnny Torts said:

The stars are lining up in Vancouver. 

 

EDM lost

 

TOR lost

 

Draft lottery tomorrow...

On a completely unrelated note, how insanely awesome would a Montreal-Boston cup final be?  Talk about ratings and fan interest.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The gutting of the front office and the centralization of power with 2 guys is one of my biggest criticisms. Good GM's empower their employees and give them autonomy to focus on their job so the GM doesnt have to duplicate their work or micro manage the entire process.

 

Benning and Weisbrod need a President to answer to. 

I liked Brian Burke's comments about Weisbrod "I don't even know what he did" (or something to that effect) 

[erkayloomeh]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Toronto $&!#ting the bed has nothing to do with Vancouver $&!#ting the bed.

 

If Hughes and EP take lower bridge contracts it will not be because of Matthews or Marner being playoff failures. It will be because they choose to for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with Toronto.

 

The fallacy that Benning has not done a lot of the same types of things Dubas has done is interesting to me. Benning has wasted a ton of cap. He has just wasted it on a different focus. Bottom 6 "foundational" guys and sub par UFA players rather than top rfa players. He has made bad choices regarding players he has signed. And he has not been patient at all. Pretty much every year he has tried for a quick fix type solution that simply hasnt worked out.

 

Dubas being a terrible GM doesnt make Benning a great one. 

 

Our expectation should not be that Benning has been better than train wreck GM's snd teams. It should be is he at least keepi g up with quality GM's and teams. And at this point, imo, he isnt.

 

Ide take jb over dubas anyday.

The only signing I'm mad about was Lou Eriksson 

When he signed beagle Sutter rousel , who would you have signed instead.??  There weren't any players in the system who were ready? Now we have players coming in through our system and you won't see those kinds of signings anymore.

I don't see how he had alot of options.  

 

[wallstreetamigo]

Just now, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I liked Brian Burke's comments about Weisbrod "I don't even know what he did" (or something to that effect) 

Weisbrod has made a career out of self promotion that has put him in posirions where he was over his head and made a lot of mistakes that proved very costly.

 

The only real skill he seems to have is getting hired in key roles he isnt really good at.

[Nuxfanabroad]

1 minute ago, Patel Bure said:

On a completely unrelated note, how insanely awesome would a Montreal-Boston cup final be?  Talk about ratings and fan interest.

Perish the thought! That nameless, heartless cast should only be envisioned in the zoo!

 

But a Cdn team?..Cool

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Weisbrod has made a career out of self promotion that has put him in posirions where he was over his head and made a lot of mistakes that proved very costly.

 

The only real skill he seems to have is getting hired in key roles he isnt really good at.

I can't remember just how he got to be the GM of a NBA team.

[Patel Bure]

3 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The gutting of the front office and the centralization of power with 2 guys is one of my biggest criticisms. Good GM's empower their employees and give them autonomy to focus on their job so the GM doesnt have to duplicate their work or micro manage the entire process.

 

Benning and Weisbrod need a President to answer to. 

What are you basing this evidence on?  
 

Disgruntled ex employee Trevor Linden’s petty comments on the radio a few years back?    

Why would Aqua choose to keep the “incompetent” Weisbrod and Benning over Linden and Brackett?

 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, erkayloomeh said:

Ide take jb over dubas anyday.

The only signing I'm mad about was Lou Eriksson 

When he signed beagle Sutter rousel , who would you have signed instead.??  There weren't any players in the system who were ready? Now we have players coming in through our system and you won't see those kinds of signings anymore.

I don't see how he had alot of options.  

 

If I had my choice I wouldnt take JB or Dubas. Neither is a good GM imo.

 

Signing those players isnt the problem. Their cap hit, term, and ntc are the issue I have. Benning is mypoic in the sense that he gets focused on the player he must have and forgets to value them properly in the contract he offers.

 

The Sutter re-signing was bad value. The summer of 2018 was extreme overkill. Sign one of those guys, not 3 or 4.

[lmm]

8 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

My comparisons for any Canucks GM, whether its drafting or any other aspect of their job, is with the top GM's, not the bottom ones.

 

Comparing Benning to Gillis, etc is a useless comparison. In drafting Benning clobbers him. But in many other aspects, Gillis clobbers Benning. In some, both are pretty bad.

 

Benning/Gillis hybrid would be a good GM overall imo.

 

the teams that interest me most are Detroit, Ottawa, Montreal, Tampa, NYI and Boston

Detroit- was good for a very long time then failed- new guy Yzerman- lets see if he can recreate Tampa faster than any other failing team

Ottawa- I like Ottawa, I have friends there, might go to a game some time and I like the team- we'll see if they can go somewhere or implode like we all kind of expect

Montreal- retool Price/Weber and Bergavin's awesome style- again, can they get over the hump before imploding or aging out?

Tampa- built by Yzerman - do they continue to build or fail?

NYI- years of failure like Ottawa but can Lou Lam pull off another build from the ashtray?

Boston - I don't like Boston, but they inftrigue me how they Retool successfully so quickly- they have been retooling since Bobby Orr left

[wallstreetamigo]

Just now, Patel Bure said:

What are you basing this evidence on?  
 

Disgruntled ex employee Trevor Linden’s petty comments on the radio a few years back?    

Why would Aqua choose to keep the “incompetent” Weisbrod and Benning over Linden and Brackett?

 

 

I am basing it on the fact that good people have been pushed out and replaced by Benning and Weisbrod. A GMand Assistant GM should not be micro managing amateur scouting, or pro scouting, or player development. Thats why good orhanizations have strong front office people. To limit how much micro managing a GM has to do so he cannot "run out of time" on important things.

[lmm]

6 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

What are you basing this evidence on?  
 

Disgruntled ex employee Trevor Linden’s petty comments on the radio a few years back?    

Why would Aqua choose to keep the “incompetent” Weisbrod and Benning over Linden and Brackett?

 

 

thats funny, you answered your own question, with a question

[erkayloomeh]

7 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

If I had my choice I wouldnt take JB or Dubas. Neither is a good GM imo.

 

Signing those players isnt the problem. Their cap hit, term, and ntc are the issue I have. Benning is mypoic in the sense that he gets focused on the player he must have and forgets to value them properly in the contract he offers.

 

The Sutter re-signing was bad value. The summer of 2018 was extreme overkill. Sign one of those guys, not 3 or 4.

Like I said who would you have signed instead.  ? 

We don't have the privilege of knowing what the competition for those players was.  But term is pretty important to an aging Ufa so I don't get the criticism.   Sure sign one of them instead of three sure but then you still need to fill out your roster. 

Sign worse players for less money and less term sure....then instead of being bad we could have been reeeeeeeal bad. How good would that have been for guys like Bo?

And we've had some surprises with Pete and Hughes. 

Benning is no superstar gm but hes no slouch either. 

Our progression is slower than we like, but we are slowly building a good team.