Hogtown-Implosion Should Assist JB

[204CanucksFan]

23 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Gillis drafting was horrible anyhow.  Though crying over a 3rd & 4th round pick is a bit much imho.

That's a fair opinion, the 3rd we gave up to get Lapierre who played les than 2 seasons with the team and put up 30 points in that time turned in to a goalie that since 2014-15 is 2nd among all goalies in wins, 19th in save percentage and 31st in GAA. The 4th round pick that turned in to Josh Anderson was the pick we got for trading Christian Ehrhoff to NYI right after our Cup run ended in 2011, that Ehrhoff was a core piece of, we then flipped to Columbus for Sami Pahlsson, pure genius by GMMG.

 

Again I'm not a big Benning fan but he's way better than Gillis. And I know the whole hindsight is 20/20 is a bad way of evaluating a GM at drafting but it sure doesn't bother the anti Benning crowd to play that same card over and over ad nauseam

[Aladeen]

3 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Been saying this for awhile. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. 

 

Being better than train wreck GM's and teams is the comparison many are comfortable with because the other comparison does not allow them to consider Benning a great GM.

 

I know for me, I expect more than we are better than Toronto or Buffalo. Being the best of the worst is still pretty damn bad overall.

Do you not get that the separation between top tier teams and bottom feeders is not as much as you think it is? Barry Trotz was quoted saying the difference between a presidents trophy team and missing the playoff is like 1 extra loss a month. 
 

Benning is not a train wreck, Benning has made mistakes as all GMs do. Is he the best GM? No but he is far from the worst and firing him and getting a new GM by no means guarantees that his successor is going to do things better. Infact often we see new GMs make rash moves to put “their stamp” on the team. 
 

Let him draft well like he has been and see where next year goes. Was the playoff success last year an anomaly or was it this year’s Frankenseason that was the abberation?

 

I think his ability to restock this team with NHL players from the draft buys him a least one more year to see where this team truly stands.

 

No one is deluded to think everything JB has done is perfect but after the mess leftover from the Gillis/Nonis drafting years to where we are now at least gives hope for the future. 
 

If he ultimately is not the GM able to bring us to the promised land and his successor does it will still be on a foundation that he built. 

[Drakrami]

You are probably way too optimistic... Pettersson changed his agent in January and now have the same agency as Hughes. Won't be easy at all to negotiate 2 team friendly contracts in this scenario. There's also the possibility of offer sheets. 

 

Boeser took a very good team friendly contract. Horvat/Demko(shouldn't be paying a goalie who has not started even 1 full year in the NHL more than 5mil AAV)  pretty much took market value at the time. 

[CaptKirk888]

58 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

Manny - Great character player, great coach, great at faceoffs in the 2011 playoffs played 6 games and produced 0 points. Injuries suck but not that great for us.

 

Raffi - 7 points in the playoffs plus 29 in season, huge liability at all times on the ice, game 80 against EDM was the first in a long list of garbage hits that started a parade of suspensions.

 

Higgins - Decent depth for the cup run but resigned by Gillis to a bad contract that had to be bought by Vancouver.

 

Lappy - Alright 4th liner that was never anything more than that. Alright when he was here, on a cheap contract but players like him are a penny a dozen.

 

Glass - 10 points in the regular season, as well as being the only regular season regular with a negative +/- and no points in the playoffs, mighty replaceable.

 

Hamhuis - I already stated he was a core piece and one of the very few good moves by Gillis.

 

Tambellini - Just OK in the regular season with 17 points but only played 6 playoff games with no points and was -3, hardly important.

 

Ballard - I knew someone would bring him up. Put up a mighty 10 points while being the worst +/- of all of our regular dmen of the regular season as well as contributing 0 points in 10 games with a -4 in the playoffs, again, injuries suck.

 

Alberts - Put up 7 points while only playing half the regular season and put up 0 points in the playoffs, getting into 9 games instead of only 5 because of the Rome suspension in game 3 of the Finals.

 

Rome - 5 points in the regular season and only 1 in the playoffs and yet somehow this 6/7 dman is possibly most responsible for us losing in the SCF, at least if the accounts of the Bruin players are to be trusted.

 

Bolduc - 4 points in the regular season and 0 points in 3 playoff games, absolutely critical to our teams success 

 

Tanev - I absolutely missed him as a Gillis signing, great pick up, only produced 1 point in the regular season and playoffs but it was definitely the start of a beautiful relationship. But only played 5 playoff games and wasn't very important for the Cup run but still a great player for us in the years after.

 

Oreskovich - 3 points in 16 regular season games and 0 points in 19 playoff games.

 

Again, most of these players are OK depth, 4th line and bottom pairing type players that you need to compete but almost none of them were significant pieces that were critical to our succes that year and almost all were easily replaceable with any one of 50 or 60 other players from that year.

Thank you for this, I would not have patience 

[CaptKirk888]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Like I have said, what he does this offseason will give a very good indication of just how much he has learned and whether he can see his past mistakes as actually being mistakes.

 

Thats kind of my point. You dont overpay for stop gap players.

 

Hecoukd have accomplished the same thing saving his cap he spent on those guys and trading for a similar player plus additional picks/prospects from a csp strapped team.

Enough already just go back under your bridge 

[lmm]

1 hour ago, 204CanucksFan said:

Manny - Great character player, great coach, great at faceoffs in the 2011 playoffs played 6 games and produced 0 points. Injuries suck but not that great for us.

 

Raffi - 7 points in the playoffs plus 29 in season, huge liability at all times on the ice, game 80 against EDM was the first in a long list of garbage hits that started a parade of suspensions.

 

Higgins - Decent depth for the cup run but resigned by Gillis to a bad contract that had to be bought by Vancouver.

 

Lappy - Alright 4th liner that was never anything more than that. Alright when he was here, on a cheap contract but players like him are a penny a dozen.

 

Glass - 10 points in the regular season, as well as being the only regular season regular with a negative +/- and no points in the playoffs, mighty replaceable.

 

Hamhuis - I already stated he was a core piece and one of the very few good moves by Gillis.

 

Tambellini - Just OK in the regular season with 17 points but only played 6 playoff games with no points and was -3, hardly important.

 

Ballard - I knew someone would bring him up. Put up a mighty 10 points while being the worst +/- of all of our regular dmen of the regular season as well as contributing 0 points in 10 games with a -4 in the playoffs, again, injuries suck.

 

Alberts - Put up 7 points while only playing half the regular season and put up 0 points in the playoffs, getting into 9 games instead of only 5 because of the Rome suspension in game 3 of the Finals.

 

Rome - 5 points in the regular season and only 1 in the playoffs and yet somehow this 6/7 dman is possibly most responsible for us losing in the SCF, at least if the accounts of the Bruin players are to be trusted.

 

Bolduc - 4 points in the regular season and 0 points in 3 playoff games, absolutely critical to our teams success 

 

Tanev - I absolutely missed him as a Gillis signing, great pick up, only produced 1 point in the regular season and playoffs but it was definitely the start of a beautiful relationship. But only played 5 playoff games and wasn't very important for the Cup run but still a great player for us in the years after.

 

Oreskovich - 3 points in 16 regular season games and 0 points in 19 playoff games.

 

Again, most of these players are OK depth, 4th line and bottom pairing type players that you need to compete but almost none of them were significant pieces that were critical to our succes that year and almost all were easily replaceable with any one of 50 or 60 other players from that year.

well I am glad you recognise those players as depth. I thought it would be redundant to say so.

how do those players compare to Jim's 3rd and 4th lines this season

were the better or worse than Haweryk, Vesey, Boyd, Grao, MacEwen, Michaelis, Motte, Sutter, Beagle, Chatfield, Rafferty Lind,Gadjovich, Roussell, Virtanen Brisbois, Ericksson, Ferland, Benn?

[Ballisticsports.]

14 minutes ago, lmm said:

well I am glad you recognise those players as depth. I thought it would be redundant to say so.

how do those players compare to Jim's 3rd and 4th lines this season

were the better or worse than Haweryk, Vesey, Boyd, Grao, MacEwen, Michaelis, Motte, Sutter, Beagle, Chatfield, Rafferty Lind,Gadjovich, Roussell, Virtanen Brisbois, Ericksson, Ferland, Benn?

I think Malholtra was a good pick up

[knucklehead91]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Bizzare.   Don't care about Tavares, he earned his pay day the correct way, was underpaid during his second deal.    But Mathews for only five years is a sticky point, especially at that price (right to free agency).   Collectively they've missed out on a very good 3C or a nice bump on D or something.   A lot of lessons to be learned from his mistakes league wide - brings back memories of the late 90's when salaries were spinning out of control. 

In all honesty, what has Tavares ever accomplished to make him worthy of that kind of money? Despite maybe being underpaid in his second deal. Does that really mean he should have taken a 11m deal to make up for lost wages... He got greedy and took an absurd amount of money for a guy who has never won anything in the NHL.

He’s making more than almost every single one of the leagues biggest stars not named McDavid or Matthews. Guys who have actually accomplished individual awards and won a cup or 3. He has had a few “good years” but nothing to warrant top of the league money.

37g 47a the year he inked one of the biggest deals in the league. Took him 10 years to break 40 goals. Honestly f*** Tavares, he turned his back on NYI and screwed them and lied to the fans, cashed in and went for $ not glory.

 

Mackinnon is arguably one of the best players in the NHL and he aint goin for money like McDollars. He’s all about Mackwinnin

 

Sorry for the rant... I really dislike greedy people.

 

Theres a lot of guys in the NHL that are going to regret their contracts despite the big $$ they will be alone trying to win a cup versus a team

[lmm]

17 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

I think Malholtra was a good pick up

yes 

too bad Jim let him go

[lmm]

1 hour ago, CaptKirk888 said:

Enough already just go back under your bridge 

conversation too difficult for you ?

shall we all sing Kumbaya now?

[knucklehead91]

3 hours ago, lmm said:

Manny

Raffi

Higgy

Lappy

Glass

Hamhius

Tambellini

Ballard

Alberts 

Rome

Bulduc

Tanev

Oreskovich

You can argue that Gillis clobbers Benning at signing UFAs. But without Burke’s drafting... None of those signings would have made an impact. Its easy to find the key signings when the team is 3/4 built. Gillis took the glory for something that was started and in place

8-9years before he showed up.
Wait until Bennings drafting has cemented the core and when he gets his opportunity (if he gets to stay that long) to sign or acquire the final piece or 2. We need time to develop and gain NHL experience, just like Burke’s drafting took 8 years to solidify the core and turn us into a competitive team, it was a few moves for Gillis to turn us into a contending team.

If Gillis could actually produce a handful of draft picks that developed into top 6 NHLers that would have been able to contribute the the club,  we would have been easily able to retool much quicker. Problem is Benning walked into a complete disaster.. funny enough it wont be nearly as much of a disaster as Dubas is going to leave behind. No prospects, old aged out team, nothing to work with.

[Nuxfanabroad]

8 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

You can argue that Gillis clobbers Benning at signing UFAs. But without Burke’s drafting... None of those signings would have made an impact. Its easy to find the key signings when the team is 3/4 built. Gillis took the glory for something that was started and in place

8-9years before he showed up.
Wait until Bennings drafting has cemented the core and when he gets his opportunity (if he gets to stay that long) to sign or acquire the final piece or 2. We need time to develop and gain NHL experience, just like Burke’s drafting took 8 years to solidify the core and turn us into a competitive team, it was a few moves for Gillis to turn us into a contending team.

If Gillis could actually produce a handful of draft picks that developed into top 6 NHLers that would have been able to contribute the the club,  we would have been easily able to retool much quicker. Problem is Benning walked into a complete disaster.. funny enough it wont be nearly as much of a disaster as Dubas is going to leave behind. No prospects, old aged out team, nothing to work with.

Well stated.

[204CanucksFan]

53 minutes ago, lmm said:

well I am glad you recognise those players as depth. I thought it would be redundant to say so.

how do those players compare to Jim's 3rd and 4th lines this season

were the better or worse than Haweryk, Vesey, Boyd, Grao, MacEwen, Michaelis, Motte, Sutter, Beagle, Chatfield, Rafferty Lind,Gadjovich, Roussell, Virtanen Brisbois, Ericksson, Ferland, Benn?

The aged depth probably lacks compared to Gillis but the youth depth is definitely superior compared to Gillis.

[the grinder]

3 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Like I have said, what he does this offseason will give a very good indication of just how much he has learned and whether he can see his past mistakes as actually being mistakes.

 

Thats kind of my point. You dont overpay for stop gap players.

 

Hecoukd have accomplished the same thing saving his cap he spent on those guys and trading for a similar player plus additional picks/prospects from a csp strapped team.

you mean kinda like schimdt for a 3rd rounder ,because vegas needed cap space??    seems like benning has learned 

[wallstreetamigo]

35 minutes ago, the grinder said:

you mean kinda like schimdt for a 3rd rounder ,because vegas needed cap space??    seems like benning has learned 

Not entirely the same thing though. I am talking about filling the bottom 6 roles for a few years at the time ratger than wastibg cap signing those overpriced guys for 4 year terms. And accumulating picks and prospects for cap dumps, not paying picks outright for cap relief players.

 

He took on a 6 mil cap player with multiple years left on it and yes only paid a 3rd but didnt accumulate assets. He got a good player but thats a long term contract that may end up pretty ugly. Thats a move a contender makes to add to their team, not a team that is rebuilding.

 

Had he not also signed Myers the Schmidt deal would have made more sense.

 

I liked the trade though as I like Schmidt 

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Drafting doesnt exist in a vacuum though. Where you draft matters too. And the trade off to draft high has been a terrible team resukts wise.

 

To properly judge a GM's drafting record, if your goal is to declare them the difference maker in hitting homeruns, you have to factor in where the players they drafted were projected to go in addition to where they went and how they ultimately turned out.

 

The only crystal clear example of a major drafting coup in the early rounds is drafting Petterssen a few spots above where he was projected to go. He turned out to be a clear homerun.

 

Hughes, Podkolzin, McCann, Boeser, Demko, Hoglander, etc were all taken within the expected range they would be. Juolevi and Virtanen were by position stretch picks at the time and hindsight has not changed that.

 

Some of his later picks have apparently not been as good as we all hoped. If they were, they would not have been let go for little or nothing in return. Others still may be very clear homeruns but the jury is still out.

 

Overall drafting has been a strength of Benning's time as GM. He deserves credit for doing a good job there, particularly in direct comparison to previous Canucks GM's. 

It's why i keep using ADP in my referencing to JBs drafting.    JB didn't need to pick any of these guys, there were others at or around that looked better or just as good...and it takes draft position into direct context compared to every GM in the league - average draft position is a system THN uses annually in their future watch stuff.    Also recently have mentioned that Horvat (MG), BB, EP were all picked as the best 2010-2019 picks based on their slots for the entire decade, QHs second best with the caveat that eventually he might overtake Schieffle who was the best 7th.   JB has both drafted well, he's also drafted above his draft position overall so far. 

 

If not instead of having a run of three or four years with a top 3 pool, we'd have had a run of 8-10, the average of where we drafted.    To me he's average or slightly above average as far as quantity goes (number of hits, AG, McAan, Forsling get included here), his quality of his "home runs"  so far very good.      

 

Milford is still the best drafter ever, and JB won't surpass that until you can take four years of drafting and get 10,000 NHL games outs of it.   In context that period of drafting was exceptionally 78-81...for most teams.  

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

In all honesty, what has Tavares ever accomplished to make him worthy of that kind of money? Despite maybe being underpaid in his second deal. Does that really mean he should have taken a 11m deal to make up for lost wages... He got greedy and took an absurd amount of money for a guy who has never won anything in the NHL.

He’s making more than almost every single one of the leagues biggest stars not named McDavid or Matthews. Guys who have actually accomplished individual awards and won a cup or 3. He has had a few “good years” but nothing to warrant top of the league money.

37g 47a the year he inked one of the biggest deals in the league. Took him 10 years to break 40 goals. Honestly f*** Tavares, he turned his back on NYI and screwed them and lied to the fans, cashed in and went for $ not glory.

 

Mackinnon is arguably one of the best players in the NHL and he aint goin for money like McDollars. He’s all about Mackwinnin

 

Sorry for the rant... I really dislike greedy people.

 

Theres a lot of guys in the NHL that are going to regret their contracts despite the big $$ they will be alone trying to win a cup versus a team

He was offered 13 in SJ.  Widely considered the best free agent ever that went to market given his age.   I still don't have a problem with it.   EK and Doughty also got paid, as did the rest of the guys in his generation.   Stamkos reportedly turned down 12.   Markets are what they are.     My issue is with Mathews, Marner and Nylander, not Tavares deal.   Covid screwed TO about as much as any other team, Dubas almost ruined it for every other GM with second contracts.   Wonder what Mathews will get his next deal?  

 

McKinnon signed a deal before he took it to another level.   One year before.   Before that his stats were decent but not great like since.    You can bet it would a lot different if he signed a two-three year bridge, if Rantanen gets 9.5ish what would he take?    And yes i know he says he won't take much more, guess we will find out eventually.    Skinner, Duchene .... compared to Tavares don't look bad do they?   Stone at 9 is close to the same take home as Tavares at 11 in TO.   Just because they won the JT sweepstakes, didn't make it an automatic that Mathews and Marner needed deal like the ones they got. 

[lmm]

9 hours ago, 204CanucksFan said:

The aged depth probably lacks compared to Gillis but the youth depth is definitely superior compared to Gillis.

When Gillis left, he left behind Horvat, Markstrom, Tanev, Kassian, Hutton, Weber,. 

Those are guys still playing in the league

 

When talking about changing GMs I often here, " the new guy might want to put his stamp on the team and undervalue what was left"

I also here, from you, that Gillis had all the parts needed left for him.

 

This  is what I find ironic, Gillis did not toss out everyone left to him by Nonis/Burke but added pieces neccisary to take the team to the finals

You seem to undervalue Gillis for doing so.

 

Look at the list above and ask your  self what value Benning got from those players that were all 25 or under at the time

I see one still in Vancouver, and he is our Captain

 

when comparing Gillis to Benning, it seem Benning undervalued what Gillis left more than Gillis did his predecessors

 

[wallstreetamigo]

11 hours ago, CaptKirk888 said:

Enough already just go back under your bridge 

Or you could realize that there are different ways to accomplish the same things and some are more effective than others.

[204CanucksFan]

26 minutes ago, lmm said:

When Gillis left, he left behind Horvat, Markstrom, Tanev, Kassian, Hutton, Weber,. 

Those are guys still playing in the league

 

When talking about changing GMs I often here, " the new guy might want to put his stamp on the team and undervalue what was left"

I also here, from you, that Gillis had all the parts needed left for him.

 

This  is what I find ironic, Gillis did not toss out everyone left to him by Nonis/Burke but added pieces neccisary to take the team to the finals

You seem to undervalue Gillis for doing so.

 

Look at the list above and ask your  self what value Benning got from those players that were all 25 or under at the time

I see one still in Vancouver, and he is our Captain

 

when comparing Gillis to Benning, it seem Benning undervalued what Gillis left more than Gillis did his predecessors

 

By 'undervalued what Gillis left' do you mean what the out going coach that season referred to as an old, stale core that need revitalizing? I'm not trying to knock the Sedins or any other of the core players at that time, time catches up to all people and teams eventually.

 

Sure Gillis did an OK job of surrounding the high end players he inherited with depth players on decent value contracts and he absolutely did make 1 good draft pick in his 7 years as GM in Bo Horvat, who singlehandedly accounts for over 25% of all NHL games played by all Gillis draft picks. But trying to say Gillis left good pieces by using names like Yannick Weber, Ben Hutton and Zack Kassian is ludacris, Tanev was a great player for our team that I loved to watch but he was allowed to go because 4×$4.5m is a ridiculous contract for him to be signed to. I'm just speculating on this but I don't think there was any chance of him getting that kind of contract offer from us and good for him for taking that contract all the way to the bank and handicapping a division rival for us. The exact same thing can said about Markstrom.

 

Trying to say Gillis is a good GM because he didn't 'put his stamp on the team' and trade away the talented, developing players he was gifted is a farcical argument. He left this franchise in a Bingham Canyon Mine sized hole due to his ineptitude and short sightedness. Benning isn't a great GM either but at least he is actually building a franchise that is capable of sustainable success, whether or not that happens remains to be seen