Stop comparing the Canucks to the Leafs (they re-built wrong) Lets compare them to Colorado one of the current cup contenders in the league.

[Arrow 1983]

 

Disclaimer I view the Canucks re-build as, on going due to the youth of the core (mainly Pettersson and Hughes due to the positions they play). That said big steps need to happen the next 2 years or this re-build will have to be considered failed as well. Due to the fact that the Canucks would then be wasting prime years of their young core.

 

Tor and Edm are just prime examples of what I have said many times here on this forum It starts with goaltending if you don't have it you can't expect to go to far without it. Both these teams have failed to learn this and therefor, both their re-builds have failed. 

 

Demko is far more important to the Canucks chances of success then Pettersson or Hughes. 

 

The last time I checked Demko is locked up for 5 years at 5 mill per that is one hell of a great contract for the Canucks. Next to be locked up are their #1 center (pettersson) who actually is a #1 center and their #1 defenseman (Hughes) who actually is a #1 dman. What I mean by that is they are top 31 or for next year top 32 centerman and Defenseman in the league (You could try and prove me wrong by naming 32 centers better then Pettersson or 32 Defenseman better than Hughes or even 32 Goalies better than Demko). Furthermore, last time I checked JB drafted them all. 

 

On top of that this team has a legit top 3 goals scoring winger (Boeser).  Whom JB drafted

 

On top of that a top 3 2 way winger who can also fill in at center and would be in his own right a top 2 centreman (JT Miller). Whom JB traded for which was a home run win for the Canucks.

 

Canucks also have a legit 2 way 2nd line center (show me 64 better centreman better than Horvat to prove me wrong). Whom was the only half decent prospect that JB inherited. Whom JB locked up on one of the Best contracts in the league all due in part by the fact that he doesn't hand out 10+mill contracts to players who haven't achieved anything in the playoffs. 

 

Honestly people are hyping Colorado right now for their style of play and Cap structure. I would argue JB has the Cap structure part down for his core players which was set when JB signed one of the best UFAs at the time in his class to a 6 year 6 mill per season contract (Loui Eriksson). Look at the 2 core guys that JB has signed Horvat 5.5 mill and Boeser 5.875 mill. Both are less then the Veteran Eriksson 6 mill. (to me this is the least talked about topic about the Canucks that is actually a very important point when it comes to the Eriksson signing it really has set the cap structure of this team) 

 

I would ask people to look at the age of Mackinnon (25) Landeskog (28) Rattanen (24) and compare that to Boeser (24), Miller (28), Pettersson (22), the biggest difference that you may notice is The top line center for the Canucks is younger than Colorado's and that matters when it comes to centers.

 

Compare Col and Canucks 2nd line center Kadri and Horvat and I would say the Canucks have the Advantage and again the Canucks center is younger 

 

Col has talented wingers, Burakovsky (26 years old) leads the way for them and the Canucks have Hogs and Pods ( both of whom where drafted by JB)

 

Colorado I would also point out didn't become a contender until they finally drafted a top #1 offensive Dman in Cale Maker but wait a second doesn't the Canucks have one of them as well in Hughes.

 

Furthermore, Col has a group of young talented defenseman rounded out by some older vets. So do the Canucks 

 

For my final point I refer back to what I originally said it all starts with the goaltender. This is where The Canucks might have the upper hand on Colorado. I take nothing away from Philipp Grubauer he is in his own right a starting goalie in this league and has played especially well in the playoffs. But he is actually having his best season as a starter this season at the age of 29 . Demko on the other hand has also played especially well in the playoffs last season and I would say even posted better numbers compared to Grubauer's. Moreover, Demko is 25 years old and far more developed than Grubauer was when he was 25. (side note when Grubauer was 25 he was backing-up Holtby in Wash).

 

Colorado's playoff chances could fall at the waist side of Phillipp Grubauer if he where to lose his form at any time.  

 

Conclusion. JB has built a team that could be compared to one of the Cup contenders of today and I would argue for the most part he hasn't just built but drafted a playoff team and future cup contender . The major difference is a couple of years. Colorado's core is just a couple years older than the Canucks core is and this is why as Canuck fans we should stay optimistic and hopeful of the Canucks future successes. The Truth is the Canucks were not going to be contenders this season and in turn JB will have another opportunity to bring in another piece to improve this team.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Arrow 1983

[Bertuzzipunch]

Yet we have some jackass claiming that Dahlin is better than quinn Hughes lmao. Yeah nobody scores on the Sabres pal smh

[McBackup]

The Canucks are constantly compared to the Leafs because their rebuilds unofficially kicked off around the same time, and because the media will inevitably compare everything to Toronto.

 

If we're comparing the Canucks to the Avs, they're doing fine then. People hold up Colorado as an exemplary rebuild, and they've done a great job no doubt. But lets also keep in mind just how bad they were for so long. Aside from having two blips where they made the playoffs (Like us since the Benning era started), they were a trainwreck. They picked in the Top 5 four times. They went 7 years with 1 playoff appearance, had multiple coaches and GM. 

 

My point is that yes Colorado has rebuilt their team to be a powerhouse, but we can't ignore that they did more sucking than we have so far to get there, so if your idea of an ideal rebuild is to do what Colorado did, we have to lose some more. 

 

There is no single model or path to build a cup contender. There are multiple ways to do it and you have to pick the one that works for your organization. The only one I think is a surefire way not to succeed is to deliberately tank, because that creates an environment and culture where losing becomes acceptable, and surprisingly enough thats what happened in Buffalo, Toronto and Edmonton who all deliberately tanked for 1st overall picks. And that culture becomes extremely difficult to get rid of. Look at all the people running for the hills from Buffalo. We were bad during that time as well make no mistakes about it, but Benning for all his warts still tried to keep the team competitive. He just hamstrung us in the long run in order to do so. Meanwhile in Toronto you've got your stars seemingly more concerned with squeezing the organization for every penny and flipping the puck over the glass so as not to get hit. I'm thankful that with our core, guys clearly give a damn and want to compete.

 

You can speculate about JT Miller's attitude, but nobody thinks for a second that guy doesn't want to win. Petey is probably the most talented player to ever lace up for us and he works just as hard at the defensive side of the game as he does at scoring. Boeser made massive leaps in his game despite scoring less because he wanted to be a better all around hockey player rather than just a triggerman, because thats what it takes to win. I don't need to say anything for Bo. Hell, even with Podkolzin they drafted a guy who wants nothing more than to rip the puck from you and shove it down your throat. The rebuild is going fine in that sense. Its the superfluous extra crap tacked onto it, like overpaying over-the-hill guys to be 4th liners thats causing the problems.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by McBackup

[Nuxfanabroad]

 

 

Just read your title

 

Later on got some time to check this out. Good read. Agree, we're a couple(few?) yrs back of the Avs, but JB has something cooking here.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Nuxfanabroad

[Phil_314]

Compare them if you must, just know that Trader Jim Benning has a ways to go before he's ridded his team of all bad contracts like Burnaby Joe has. Til then, he can only hope that the depth guys he acquires chip in so well to the well-oiled machine that is his team and that the stars are so devastatingly potent (this part about comparing the stars I can see but do so at your own risk.  While the goalie and top-9 comparisons are valid, the Avs with Mackinnon and Makar have two guys who can take over and be dynamic in ways that I'm not sure Petey and Quinn will grow to develop, since they can each do things at such high speeds with effectiveness that the Canucks duo [and most other players in the league] haven't shown the ability yet to do without being turnover prone).  I'm sure that Benning can find some guys who would look like the finishing touches to the team's depth but until the stars prove to have that same upside, I'd be careful with this one.   

[khay]

1 hour ago, Arrow 1983 said:

 

 

I would ask people to look at the age of Mackinnon (25) Landeskog (28) Rattanen (24) and compare that to Boeser (24), Miller (28), Pettersson (22), the biggest difference that you may notice is The top line center for the Canucks is younger than Colorado's and that matters when it comes to centers.

 

 

Good post. 

 

Not sure if we are supposed to laugh at the bit about Eriksson. I guess, that's one (positive) way to look at Eriksson's contract. 

 

It's interesting that you compare MacKinnon, Landeskog and Raantanen to Boeser, Miller, Pettersson. 

 

Miller and Landeskog are similar. Boeser and Raantanen play similar roles. And although EP and MacKinnon are wildly different players they are key players on both teams. I think our ascension will come when EP reaches that next level as MacKinnon did.

 

Makar is arguably the best offensive defenceman in the league already. QH is also right there. With right deployment and defensive strategy, QH should do better on the defensive end.

 

 

[Angry Goose]

8 minutes ago, McBackup said:

The Canucks are constantly compared to the Leafs because their rebuilds unofficially kicked off around the same time, and because the media will inevitably compare everything to Toronto.

 

If we're comparing the Canucks to the Avs, they're doing fine then. People hold up Colorado as an exemplary rebuild, and they've done a great job no doubt. But lets also keep in mind just how bad they were for so long. Aside from having two blips where they made the playoffs (Like us since the Benning era started), they were a trainwreck. They picked in the Top 5 four times. They went 7 years with 1 playoff appearance, had multiple coaches and GM. 

 

My point is that yes Colorado has rebuilt their team to be a powerhouse, but we can't ignore that they did more sucking than we have so far to get there, so if your idea of an ideal rebuild is to do what Colorado did, we have to lose some more. 

 

There is no single model or path to build a cup contender. There are multiple ways to do it and you have to pick the one that works for your organization. The only one I think is a surefire way not to succeed is to deliberately tank, because that creates an environment and culture where losing becomes acceptable, and surprisingly enough thats what happened in Buffalo, Toronto and Edmonton who all deliberately tanked for 1st overall picks. And that culture becomes extremely difficult to get rid of. Look at all the people running for the hills from Buffalo. We were bad during that time as well make no mistakes about it, but Benning for all his warts still tried to keep the team competitive. He just hamstrung us in the long run in order to do so. Meanwhile in Toronto you've got your stars seemingly more concerned with squeezing the organization for every penny and flipping the puck over the glass so as not to get hit. I'm thankful that with our core guys clearly give a damn and want to compete.

 

You can speculate about JT Miller's attitude, but nobody thinks for a second that guy doesn't want to win. Petey is probably the most talented player to ever lace up for us and he works just as hard at the defensive side of the game as he does at scoring. Boeser made massive leaps in his game despite scoring less because he wanted to be a better all around hockey player rather than just a triggerman, because thats what it takes to win. I don't need to say anything for Bo. Hell, even with Podkolzin they drafted a guy who wants nothing more than to rip the puck from you and shove it down your throat. The rebuild is going fine in that sense. Its the superfluous extra crap tacked onto it, like overpaying over-the-hill guys to be 4th liners thats causing the problems.

 

Not to sound argumentative, but it often bugs me when people say TOR/VAN were re-building around the same time.  TOR was losing and acquiring assets a lot longer than VAN with guys like Kadri 2009/Reilly 2012 etc.  I guess when Shanahan/Hunters came on board they re-jigged things a bit to where they are at now (Marner at #4 and Matthews at #1 sure helped but that's debatable now too I guess).

 

What I definitely do agree with is that there are different ways to build a competitive team.  People should look at the draft history of this team and compare it with say TOR.  VAN is often getting 2-3+ guys in their drafts who become NHL'rs and thats a REALLY good sign moving forward.  

 

COVID and the Luongo recap IMO threw a major wrench into JB's plans, but now that we are coming out the other side, things are looking up.

[appleboy]

Rebuilds do not fail. 

This idea comes with the concept that Toronto has failed because they lost in the first round or if the Canucks are not in the cup finals in a few years they have also failed.

Toronto has a good young team and will be competitive next year also. Seeing them get their butt kicked was great but they are still a good young team.

The whole point of building an organization is to get them to the point of being able to compete " year after year". Look at the Sedin era . That team was one of the best in the league for many years but never won the cup.

Rebuilds don't fail because they should never stop. Teams should be continually tweaking and adjusting year after year until they get there. Gillis screwed up because he never developed more talent during those years. He rode what was here and stripped the organization down trading away picks. If he had of been able to develop new talent through those years he might still be here. The Canucks are heading to the point of being at the show but let's hope they continue to develop internally.  Let's hope they don't fall into the bad habits  of the past. Trading picks to speed things up.

Moving their minor league team to BC will hopefully keep the emphasis on drafting and developing.  They need to keep that team stocked. If you build a pipeline it will keep the field watered for generations to come.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Laffs are on their third General Manager since Jim Benning was hired.  Changing GM's that frequently isn't likely a good thing.

Edited June 2, 2021 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Arrow 1983]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

Rebuilds do not fail. 

This idea comes with the concept that Toronto has failed because they lost in the first round or if the Canucks are not in the cup finals in a few years they have also failed.

Toronto has a good young team and will be competitive next year also. Seeing them get their butt kicked was great but they are still a good young team.

The whole point of building an organization is to get them to the point of being able to compete " year after year". Look at the Sedin era . That team was one of the best in the league for many years but never won the cup.

Rebuilds don't fail because they should never stop. Teams should be continually tweaking and adjusting year after year until they get there. Gillis screwed up because he never developed more talent during those years. He rode what was here and stripped the organization down trading away picks. If he had of been able to develop new talent through those years he might still be here. The Canucks are heading to the point of being at the show but let's hope they continue to develop internally.  Let's hope they don't fall into the bad habits  of the past. Trading picks to speed things up.

Moving their minor league team to BC will hopefully keep the emphasis on drafting and developing.  They need to keep that team stocked. If you build a pipeline it will keep the field watered for generations to come.

Rebuilds do fail. 

It has nothing to do with Tor losing in the first round. It has everything to do with the fact that they haven't understood the importance of the goalie position.

Look at TBL. Even Flo realized they needed to upgrade in that position. Calgary realized it last year. 

Where the Canucks have the advantage is they drafted and developed our starter and now have him on one of the best goalie contracts for 5 years

 

Tell me this how does Tor acquire a better quality goalie with their current cap sstructure. Who is even out there for them to aquire. At this point they can't draft and develop one or their window will be over by the time the goalie is ready.

Unless they fix that position their re-build is a fail and this goes for Edm as well

[Warhippy]

Until we draft a McKinnon......

[NewbieCanuckFan]

16 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said:

Rebuilds do fail. 

It has nothing to do with Tor losing in the first round. It has everything to do with the fact that they haven't understood the importance of the goalie position.

Look at TBL. Even Flo realized they needed to upgrade in that position. Calgary realized it last year. 

Where the Canucks have the advantage is they drafted and developed our starter and now have him on one of the best goalie contracts for 5 years

 

Tell me this how does Tor acquire a better quality goalie with their current cap sstructure. Who is even out there for them to aquire. At this point they can't draft and develop one or their window will be over by the time the goalie is ready.

Unless they fix that position their re-build is a fail and this goes for Edm as well

Goaltending, while it didn't help, wasn't the Laffs problem this year though.  It was their "star players' (well Wee Willy DID kind of show up) not playing even remotely close to their contract values.

[combover]

Right compare them to Colorado because they are doing good. Lol

did they spend 7 season chasing and failing to get a wild card spot.  losing 5 positions at the draft for some “ feel good” points with 3 games remaining. 

We can’t  compare to anyone because JB/owners the only two people were dumb enough to say 

“ it doesn’t have to take ten years”

” we can stay competitive while we rebuild” 

jbs own words 

I didn’t hear sakic say that. 
I didn’t see them trade away more picks while rebuilding than any gm in there franchise history 

I didn’t see them trade prospects for rentals when they werent even close. 
 

closer to edm and TO than Colorado JB want to get in that’s it. So more like the leafs and edm on that note to. Col build to win a CUP not fingers crossed get a wild card spot. 
 

geeze the sens did better than us aren’t they years two into a blow up rebuild. 

 

 

[EddieVedder]

Avs have the best young D unit in recent memory.  Nucks have one of worst.

 

There isnt a Mackinnon on this club or anything close.

 

Rantanen is a better winger than anything we have.

 

Boeser is a top 3 scoring winger maybe in your fantasy.

 

Hughes will never  be a #1 dman no matter how hard you try convince yourself.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by EddieVedder

[EddieVedder]

6 hours ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

Yet we have some jackass claiming that Dahlin is better than quinn Hughes lmao. Yeah nobody scores on the Sabres pal smh

Dahlin is the better player with more upside whether you want to believe it or not 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

I was never a fan of Pearl Jam.

[Ghostsof1915]

Colorado 1st round draft picks since 2013:

2013 1st overall MacKinnon

2014 23rd

2015 10th overall Rantenan

2016 10th overall Jost

2017 4th overall Makar

2018 16th overall

2019 4th Bowen Byram

2020 25th overall

 

That's one 1st overall, and 4 top 10 picks. Pretty sure if they re-drafted 2017 Makar would have gone 1st overall. 

If you go back to 2011 you have a #2 in Landeskog. 

 

So basically it has taken Colorado 10 years if you go by Landeskog's draft to build the powerhouse that they have now. 

 

 

 

[McBackup]

5 hours ago, Angry Goose said:

Not to sound argumentative, but it often bugs me when people say TOR/VAN were re-building around the same time.  TOR was losing and acquiring assets a lot longer than VAN with guys like Kadri 2009/Reilly 2012 etc.  I guess when Shanahan/Hunters came on board they re-jigged things a bit to where they are at now (Marner at #4 and Matthews at #1 sure helped but that's debatable now too I guess).

Toronto was bad, built a team, made the playoffs once in 2013 choked with it and tore it all down again to start anew. I consider that a separate rebuild. Otherwise we could say they've been rebuilding since 1967, but we don't really consider this team the same continuation as the core from 1968. That's why I say they started their rebuild around the same time.

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, appleboy said:

Rebuilds do not fail. 

This idea comes with the concept that Toronto has failed because they lost in the first round or if the Canucks are not in the cup finals in a few years they have also failed.

Toronto has a good young team and will be competitive next year also. Seeing them get their butt kicked was great but they are still a good young team.

The whole point of building an organization is to get them to the point of being able to compete " year after year". Look at the Sedin era . That team was one of the best in the league for many years but never won the cup.

Rebuilds don't fail because they should never stop. Teams should be continually tweaking and adjusting year after year until they get there. Gillis screwed up because he never developed more talent during those years. He rode what was here and stripped the organization down trading away picks. If he had of been able to develop new talent through those years he might still be here. The Canucks are heading to the point of being at the show but let's hope they continue to develop internally.  Let's hope they don't fall into the bad habits  of the past. Trading picks to speed things up.

Moving their minor league team to BC will hopefully keep the emphasis on drafting and developing.  They need to keep that team stocked. If you build a pipeline it will keep the field watered for generations to come.

Yep.   TO just blew it again and are following the MG strategy of going on in trying to maximize the inevitable fail when AM leaves to ARI or NYR or wherever in a couple more years.    Agree it's about getting as many reps in as possible.   That's key.   Look how long it took St. Louis.   At one point they'd made the playoffs for how many years in a row again?   It's also a business and about money.   The best profits come in during the playoffs.   Look at what a pair of tickets cost in MTL at game six.   1500$-24,000 x 2500 fans.    That's how crazy things get come playoff time in some markets.   

 

It's not just about winning a cup from a business standpoint.  It's about making the playoffs.   Every year if possible.   Rebuilds are inevitable for every team / funny thing is the ones that can rebuild/re-tool and still stay relevant make the money.   TO, MTL and NYR are the exceptions ... they could ice AHLers and pack the place every game, but still need those playoff games to keep the revenue near the top. 

 

Vancouver is a secondary market, one that needs playoffs more then those teams.    But can still pack the place without much effort.   Time will tell how things work out but i like our chances in our own division to start a string of playoffs starting as soon as next year.   The following one is a must for a variety of reasons.   

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, McBackup said:

Toronto was bad, built a team, made the playoffs once in 2013 choked with it and tore it all down again to start anew. I consider that a separate rebuild. Otherwise we could say they've been rebuilding since 1967, but we don't really consider this team the same continuation as the core from 1968. That's why I say they started their rebuild around the same time.

Fair enough.   But why include our re-tool ... which worked one year, 7th overall finish.   Im ok as saying the entire time JB been here we've been rebuilding because that's exactly what's happening with our pool.  But the reality is the rebuild didn't kick in until Bieksa, Hamhuis, Burrows and Hansen were traded or not re-signed.   2017.   We missed the playoffs 4 years in a row.   For sure TO has had the quickest rebuild since the cap came in.   

 

The last rebuild we've been in was the Keenan era.    The Naslund - Sedin team was more of a re-tool around the Sedins then anything.   

 

TO wins the fastest turnaround because they won the lottery with AM, and the lottery signing JT.   That's it. 

 

Id rather take the longer methodical route personally.    That much cap tied up for four players is bad.'n   CAR.   And WNP.   The both did it right.   9 years and two cores later CAR made it work.   WNP rebuilt when they got their franchise from ATL.... 2010...took about the same for them didn't it?    We are factually in about year 5 right now.   A lot of promise but a lot of work yet too.