Stop comparing the Canucks to the Leafs (they re-built wrong) Lets compare them to Colorado one of the current cup contenders in the league.

[204CanucksFan]

15 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Colorado 1st round draft picks since 2013:

2013 1st overall MacKinnon

2014 23rd

2015 10th overall Rantenan

2016 10th overall Jost

2017 4th overall Makar

2018 16th overall

2019 4th Bowen Byram

2020 25th overall

 

That's one 1st overall, and 4 top 10 picks. Pretty sure if they re-drafted 2017 Makar would have gone 1st overall. 

If you go back to 2011 you have a #2 in Landeskog. 

 

So basically it has taken Colorado 10 years if you go by Landeskog's draft to build the powerhouse that they have now. 

 

 

 

You'd actually have to go back to the 2009 draft when they drafted Duchene with the 3rd overall pick to get back to the start of the Colorado rebuild.

[Bertuzzipunch]

40 minutes ago, EddieVedder said:

Dahlin is the better player with more upside whether you want to believe it or not 

Bull*hit i will take the guy that will get our team 80 points. Upside lol 

[Ghostsof1915]

Just now, 204CanucksFan said:

You'd actually have to go back to the 2009 draft when they drafted Duchene with the 3rd overall pick to get back to the start of the Colorado rebuild.

And they've hit some speed bumps on the way. Some years in the playoffs, some years they missed the playoffs. But there's not a team in the league that wouldn't kill for 

Colorado's depth on defence. And forwards. 

[Dekey Pete]

58 minutes ago, EddieVedder said:

Avs have the best young D unit in recent memory.  Nucks have one of worst.

 

There isnt a Mackinnon on this club or anything close.

 

Rantanen is a better winger than anything we have.

 

Boeser is a top 3 scoring winger maybe in your fantasy.

 

Hughes will never  be a #1 dman no matter how hard you try convince yourself.

 

Someone is having a bad morning.  Sheesh

[ShawnAntoski]

On 6/2/2021 at 8:13 AM, Ghostsof1915 said:

Colorado 1st round draft picks since 2013:

2013 1st overall MacKinnon

2014 23rd

2015 10th overall Rantenan

2016 10th overall Jost

2017 4th overall Makar

2018 16th overall

2019 4th Bowen Byram

2020 25th overall

 

That's one 1st overall, and 4 top 10 picks. Pretty sure if they re-drafted 2017 Makar would have gone 1st overall. 

If you go back to 2011 you have a #2 in Landeskog. 

 

So basically it has taken Colorado 10 years if you go by Landeskog's draft to build the powerhouse that they have now. 

 

 

 

This context matters and only because of JBs’ drafting - does both teams, seems to have similar pieces but the methodology is very different.

Imo, Colorado is one of the teams that tanks all the way in a losing season: plays & showcases the future; whearas, the Canucks are constantly retooling cause there is no appetite for a tanking team in this market - just look at the discussions in this forum about the importance of the loser points against Calgary: winning culture !

Edited June 12, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[GB5]

I really have no idea why Edmonton and Toronto bowed out early in the playoffs but I do acknowledge that that both teams made the playoffs and had very good season otherwise.

 

I think the problem here is more with the NHL and how it allows a different rule book in the playoffs. Stars like McDavid, Tavaras and Matthews (Or if you like, Sedin/Sedin) are allowed to be bullied, intimated hooked, speared and abused and this is acceptable playoff hockey. This is not allowed in the regular season so why is it ok in the playoffs?

 

I am not about to suggest that the rebuilds were flawed for the Oil and Leafs but certainly both teams to need to score 5-6 goals per game to win. They allow far too many soft goals but play an exciting up tempo game that the NHL should try and embrace rather than discourage. I enjoy watching a true superstar like McDavid play but this year in the playoffs he had tp haul one or two checkers on his back, despite his speed he was constantly being held back by hooks and interference. 

 

My conclusion? Maybe it is detrimental to have a single superstar on your team to win in the playoffs the way the game is called. Pittsburg has won with Malkin and Crosby but they often only play together on the power play. Scoring depth is the key as is goaltending and a combination of puck movers and truculent d-men. 

 

The Canucks are getting there, the scoring depth is rounding out well and is looking deeper than Edmonton and Toronto. The Canucks are lacking the star power but that may be a good thing if this team can be better rounded and spread the scoring out. Goaltending is better. Defense is still a question. We can win with Hughes, there is no doubt, I like Rathbone but am concerned at how other teams were taking runs at him and he was trying to absorb the hits which is not a long term solution. I think Woo will be great in a couple years. Myers is a warrior, Schmidt in my opinion may be redundant as we need a rugged RHD, Edler I would pass on this year, he has gotten too slow, Hamonic is a keeper as a 3-6 d-man. Joulevi projects to be good, I thought he looked better than Edler did in his rookie season.

 

So what next - round out the forward group with a dedicated 3C who can check the best players in the league. Replace Edler and trade Schmidt if possible with at least one solid defensive defenseman and allow Woo and Joulevi to be worked into the system.

[Dekey Pete]

1 minute ago, GarthButcher5 said:

I really have no idea why Edmonton and Toronto bowed out early in the playoffs but I do acknowledge that that both teams made the playoffs and had very good season otherwise.

 

I think the problem here is more with the NHL and how it allows a different rule book in the playoffs. Stars like McDavid, Tavaras and Matthews (Or if you like, Sedin/Sedin) are allowed to be bullied, intimated hooked, speared and abused and this is acceptable playoff hockey. This is not allowed in the regular season so why is it ok in the playoffs?

 

I am not about to suggest that the rebuilds were flawed for the Oil and Leafs but certainly both teams to need to score 5-6 goals per game to win. They allow far too many soft goals but play an exciting up tempo game that the NHL should try and embrace rather than discourage. I enjoy watching a true superstar like McDavid play but this year in the playoffs he had tp haul one or two checkers on his back, despite his speed he was constantly being held back by hooks and interference. 

 

My conclusion? Maybe it is detrimental to have a single superstar on your team to win in the playoffs the way the game is called. Pittsburg has won with Malkin and Crosby but they often only play together on the power play. Scoring depth is the key as is goaltending and a combination of puck movers and truculent d-men. 

 

The Canucks are getting there, the scoring depth is rounding out well and is looking deeper than Edmonton and Toronto. The Canucks are lacking the star power but that may be a good thing if this team can be better rounded and spread the scoring out. Goaltending is better. Defense is still a question. We can win with Hughes, there is no doubt, I like Rathbone but am concerned at how other teams were taking runs at him and he was trying to absorb the hits which is not a long term solution. I think Woo will be great in a couple years. Myers is a warrior, Schmidt in my opinion may be redundant as we need a rugged RHD, Edler I would pass on this year, he has gotten too slow, Hamonic is a keeper as a 3-6 d-man. Joulevi projects to be good, I thought he looked better than Edler did in his rookie season.

 

So what next - round out the forward group with a dedicated 3C who can check the best players in the league. Replace Edler and trade Schmidt if possible with at least one solid defensive defenseman and allow Woo and Joulevi to be worked into the system.

Thankfully Petey showed that he isn't going to be fazed by a little big of rough stuff in the playoffs.  In fact, it only made him compete even harder.  He really is a special player.

 

Quinn struggled more with the playoff style hockey, but to be fair it was also only his first year on the team.  He's got plenty of time to learn from other guys on the team how to battle through that kind of stuff.  

 

I don't think by any means the Canucks are lacking star power, what they need are reliable supporting players that can stay healthy for the majority of the season.  We've still got a lot of promising young prospects coming up the pipeline too, which is something to look forward to.

[Patel Bure]

7 hours ago, McBackup said:

The Canucks are constantly compared to the Leafs because their rebuilds unofficially kicked off around the same time, and because the media will inevitably compare everything to Toronto.

 

If we're comparing the Canucks to the Avs, they're doing fine then. People hold up Colorado as an exemplary rebuild, and they've done a great job no doubt. But lets also keep in mind just how bad they were for so long. Aside from having two blips where they made the playoffs (Like us since the Benning era started), they were a trainwreck. They picked in the Top 5 four times. They went 7 years with 1 playoff appearance, had multiple coaches and GM. 

 

My point is that yes Colorado has rebuilt their team to be a powerhouse, but we can't ignore that they did more sucking than we have so far to get there, so if your idea of an ideal rebuild is to do what Colorado did, we have to lose some more. 

 

There is no single model or path to build a cup contender. There are multiple ways to do it and you have to pick the one that works for your organization. The only one I think is a surefire way not to succeed is to deliberately tank, because that creates an environment and culture where losing becomes acceptable, and surprisingly enough thats what happened in Buffalo, Toronto and Edmonton who all deliberately tanked for 1st overall picks. And that culture becomes extremely difficult to get rid of. Look at all the people running for the hills from Buffalo. We were bad during that time as well make no mistakes about it, but Benning for all his warts still tried to keep the team competitive. He just hamstrung us in the long run in order to do so. Meanwhile in Toronto you've got your stars seemingly more concerned with squeezing the organization for every penny and flipping the puck over the glass so as not to get hit. I'm thankful that with our core, guys clearly give a damn and want to compete.

 

You can speculate about JT Miller's attitude, but nobody thinks for a second that guy doesn't want to win. Petey is probably the most talented player to ever lace up for us and he works just as hard at the defensive side of the game as he does at scoring. Boeser made massive leaps in his game despite scoring less because he wanted to be a better all around hockey player rather than just a triggerman, because thats what it takes to win. I don't need to say anything for Bo. Hell, even with Podkolzin they drafted a guy who wants nothing more than to rip the puck from you and shove it down your throat. The rebuild is going fine in that sense. Its the superfluous extra crap tacked onto it, like overpaying over-the-hill guys to be 4th liners thats causing the problems.

 

The Canucks and Leafs rebuild didn’t kick off at the same time.  
 

The Leafs started around the time when Sundin left, and then started to rebuild once again after they crapped the bed against Boston in 2013.

 

The Canucks on the other hand, started to place a stronger emphasis on developing prospects when they moved Luongo in 2014, and deepened this emphasis once the Canucks lost to the Flames in 2015.

 

We also have to bear in mind that the Leafs hadn’t been a playoff team since 200? (until 2013?) and so they had a lot more young pieces under their belts.   

[Patel Bure]

37 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

You'd actually have to go back to the 2009 draft when they drafted Duchene with the 3rd overall pick to get back to the start of the Colorado rebuild.

This x 1000%

[wallstreetamigo]

The Canucks "rebuild" is not really comparable to the Avs. They went about it in pretty different ways. Like I have said many times, how long a rebuild should take is an arbitrary number. There is no set time frame for it. Its about becoming a consistent and competitive playoff team. Winning a cup is the goal but cannot be used as the ultimate determining factor of a successful rebuild. Too many non controllable factors go into winning a cup. You cant judge a team for things they cant moderately control.

 

The bottom line for me is that while I like our core group, I would trade Colorado's roster for ours 100 times out of 100. Anyone who wouldn't is crazy imo.

 

Quinn Hughes has a long way to go to be a true #1 dman. He is great offensively, but his defensive game suffers a lot to generate that offense. True #1 dmen can put up points and are not defensive liabilities as a result. I think the Canucks need a long term partner for him who is actually a true #1 to get the most out of him. He will get better with time on the defensive side but his struggles defensively are real and they are a huge deal.

 

Teams dont win cups only with a good core. And to look at a rebuild you cannot only look at drafting. Trades, free agency, accumulation of assets all play a role too. How you surround the core is a critical piece.

 

I agree that goaltending is critical and Demko could be a huge advantage for the Canucks in that regard. 

 

Horvat and Boeser are on good contracts but also not for much longer. Several of those reasonable cap years have already been wasted. Their next contracts will have a big impact on the cap structure too. As will JT Miller's if the plan is to keep him.

 

Depending what happens with the Petey and Hughes contracts, the Canucks could be setting themselves up for 3-4 years of a reasonable contract structure followed by a very difficult time keeping all those pieces. That makes this offseason and the next one very important in terms of what the Canucks do with contracts further down the roster and in supporting the core group with quality players at quality cap hits.

 

In terms of cap management, Colorado has been stellar imo. Very little wasted cap and have used their cap space effectively. They have also done a very good job identifying and bringing in great support players.

 

The difference between the Canucks and Avalanche has been patience. Yes they sucked for years but they also extracted maximum value out of it, had a steady strategy, and every move Sakic made was based on that clear plan.

 

The Avs are not set up to have a 2-3 year window then back to the rebuild. If things dont improve significantly over the next two offseasons both on the ice and in terms of how Benning fills out the team, the Canucks could very well fall into that trap.

[CanucksJay]

1 hour ago, combover said:

Right compare them to Colorado because they are doing good. Lol

did they spend 7 season chasing and failing to get a wild card spot.  losing 5 positions at the draft for some “ feel good” points with 3 games remaining. 

We can’t  compare to anyone because JB/owners the only two people were dumb enough to say 

“ it doesn’t have to take ten years”

” we can stay competitive while we rebuild” 

jbs own words 

I didn’t hear sakic say that. 
I didn’t see them trade away more picks while rebuilding than any gm in there franchise history 

I didn’t see them trade prospects for rentals when they werent even close. 
 

closer to edm and TO than Colorado JB want to get in that’s it. So more like the leafs and edm on that note to. Col build to win a CUP not fingers crossed get a wild card spot. 
 

geeze the sens did better than us aren’t they years two into a blow up rebuild. 

 

 

While I give the edge to the AVs (we dont have a game breaker of McKinnon calibre), what the OP is doing is comparing the young cores and its undeniable that our cores ar very similar while we have tight cap structures in place.

You are talking about what GM Sakic said vs what Benning said during the course of the rebuild.  That is not what this post is about. It is simply looking at the players and build up of the core and we do have a lot of similar pieces.

[13231]

I'm still waiting for the day people realize there's more than one way to rebuild. Each team goes through their own unique circumstances in undergoing and reaching the conclusion of their rebuild. With that said, the OP is not wrong imo, the Canucks and Avs have similar caliber of young players they've constructed their teams around. Only difference I see is that the Avs started much earlier. 2009 to be exact. They drafted Duchene that year, a piece that led them to the a chunk of their young talent. Keeping aside the few awfully bad and negative takes on these boards and the media, and especially after the early exits of Edmonton & Toronto, I think most people are right to assume we are building our team the right way and are on course to become contenders in the near future. 

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, 204CanucksFan said:

You'd actually have to go back to the 2009 draft when they drafted Duchene with the 3rd overall pick to get back to the start of the Colorado rebuild.

COL hasn't been relevant since the WCE era when Vancouver and COL fought for divisional supremacy.   I agree.   Their rebuild is a great example of how it takes parts of two cores to make things work.   It's rare that only one is enough.   PIT first cup had just about as much to do their vets as it did Crosby and Malkin.  Same with CHI first cup.   

 

Look at WSH.   They couldn't win a cup until the Greens (he almost won a Norris), the Semins etc were gone and an entirely different crew came in around Holtby, Backstrom, Ostrich boy etc.

 

St. Louis was good all the way back to Hull and Oats, the Mac and Pronger... 

 

A little blip and right back to it.   

 

Drafting is king in this league.   Trading matters too.    Need to see a fleecing or at least a very favourable trade from JB soon or maybe it's time to move on.   If the drafting staff can be as good as it is plus we get some actual trades in to help us we can contend.   Will take both at some point.    But at least keep up the drafting please. 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The Canucks "rebuild" is not really comparable to the Avs. They went about it in pretty different ways. Like I have said many times, how long a rebuild should take is an arbitrary number. There is no set time frame for it. Its about becoming a consistent and competitive playoff team. Winning a cup is the goal but cannot be used as the ultimate determining factor of a successful rebuild. Too many non controllable factors go into winning a cup. You cant judge a team for things they cant moderately control.

 

The bottom line for me is that while I like our core group, I would trade Colorado's roster for ours 100 times out of 100. Anyone who wouldn't is crazy imo.

 

Quinn Hughes has a long way to go to be a true #1 dman. He is great offensively, but his defensive game suffers a lot to generate that offense. True #1 dmen can put up points and are not defensive liabilities as a result. I think the Canucks need a long term partner for him who is actually a true #1 to get the most out of him. He will get better with time on the defensive side but his struggles defensively are real and they are a huge deal.

 

Teams dont win cups only with a good core. And to look at a rebuild you cannot only look at drafting. Trades, free agency, accumulation of assets all play a role too. How you surround the core is a critical piece.

 

I agree that goaltending is critical and Demko could be a huge advantage for the Canucks in that regard. 

 

Horvat and Boeser are on good contracts but also not for much longer. Several of those reasonable cap years have already been wasted. Their next contracts will have a big impact on the cap structure too. As will JT Miller's if the plan is to keep him.

 

Depending what happens with the Petey and Hughes contracts, the Canucks could be setting themselves up for 3-4 years of a reasonable contract structure followed by a very difficult time keeping all those pieces. That makes this offseason and the next one very important in terms of what the Canucks do with contracts further down the roster and in supporting the core group with quality players at quality cap hits.

 

In terms of cap management, Colorado has been stellar imo. Very little wasted cap and have used their cap space effectively. They have also done a very good job identifying and bringing in great support players.

 

The difference between the Canucks and Avalanche has been patience. Yes they sucked for years but they also extracted maximum value out of it, had a steady strategy, and every move Sakic made was based on that clear plan.

 

The Avs are not set up to have a 2-3 year window then back to the rebuild. If things dont improve significantly over the next two offseasons both on the ice and in terms of how Benning fills out the team, the Canucks could very well fall into that trap.

Man your pretty much nailed it until the comments about not being patient.    Pretty sure JB did that last off season and made a statement to that affect.   Also as an aside Sakic was getting murdered by the media sitting on Duchene for an entire year... go check it out it got ugly.   And McKinnon was Skinner level before he broke out (both Calder winners both 60ish point guys up and down) .... that contract saved them 5 million for sure - but they also spent at least half of that on Rantanen, like to see how they manage Makars raise and eventually Byrams.   Their window is right now and they know it.   

 

JB hasn't the chance since his first season to bargain from a position of strength with UFAs, but has done a good job with his RFAs overall so far.    The ones that matter anyways.   Not sure your giving enough credit to JB for not going the easy "impatient" route last off season.   Could have moved Hogs and Podz some picks or whatever to jam in more of the same but didn't.   That shows patience to me.   And just like Sakic - who was getting torn to shreds early on by the media for not doing enough, we could see a few trades coming, Miller maybe Schmidt, maybe both that will give us the turbo that COL got. 

 

We are closer to the in comps then your might think.  Except we don't have a Duchene and a Barrie to trade.    Four more years we could because there how much longer they've been doing this game.    And we kind of do anyways in Miller, Horvat and Schmidt.   Wonder if the fan base has the stomach for that?

 

Also like the idea of signing EP long term right now.   He could become our Mckinnon.   He's capable of it.   Pretty sure that won't happen without some juggling though.    Don't believe a word Nathan says about taking less money ... he got at the time, exactly what he was worth - Rantanen ... how much does he make again ?   9.25.... ouch.  What do you think Makar and eventually Byram will ask for?  Nathan's money is spent already that team has two years to win a cup the way it is right now at that is it.

[wallstreetamigo]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Man your pretty much nailed it until the comments about not being patient.    Pretty sure JB did that last off season and made a statement to that affect.   Also as an aside Sakic was getting murdered by the media sitting on Duchene for an entire year... go check it out it got ugly.   And McKinnon was Skinner level before he broke out (both Calder winners both 60ish point guys up and down) .... that contract saved them 5 million for sure - but they also spent at least half of that on Rantanen, like to see how they manage Makars raise and eventually Byrams.   Their window is right now and they know it.   

 

JB hasn't the chance since his first season to bargain from a position of strength with UFAs, but has done a good job with his RFAs overall so far.    The ones that matter anyways.   Not sure your giving enough credit to JB for not going the easy "impatient" route last off season.   Could have moved Hogs and Podz some picks or whatever to jam in more of the same but didn't.   That shows patience to me.   And just like Sakic - who was getting torn to shreds early on by the media for not doing enough, we could see a few trades coming, Miller maybe Schmidt, maybe both that will give us the turbo that COL got. 

 

We are closer to the in comps then your might think.  Except we don't have a Duchene and a Barrie to trade.    Four more years we could because there how much longer they've been doing this game.    And we kind of do anyways in Miller, Horvat and Schmidt.   Wonder if the fan base has the stomach for that?

 

Also like the idea of signing EP long term right now.   He could become our Mckinnon.   He's capable of it.   Pretty sure that won't happen without some juggling though.    Don't believe a word Nathan says about taking less money ... he got at the time, exactly what he was worth - Rantanen ... how much does he make again ?   9.25.... ouch.  What do you think Makar and eventually Byram will ask for?  Nathan's money is spent already that team has two years to win a cup the way it is right now at that is it.

Benning didnt really choose to be "patient" last offseason. He tried to go the impatient route actually. He went hard after OEL which thankfully didn't end up happening. He did not have the cap space to keep his own 30 year old UFA guys but focused on two other 30 year olds to use up over 10 mil in cap space instead, one with a lot of term left.

 

You are confusing parience with handcuffing himself.

 

Mackinnon broke out after he signed his contract but anyone who watched him play could tell he was on the cusp of being a franchise quality player. That contract was and is a steal.

 

The Avs are not anywhere near a spot where they have to blow up their team if they dont win a cup in two years. If history shows Sakic's approach, he will identify players that he doesnt see as necessary core guys and trade them while they still have a lot of value to restock the shelves.

 

The criticism of him was short sighted. He had a plan and deserves credit for not deviating wildly from it with reactionary moves to speed things up. Thats why they are where they are now. He didnt chase the playoffs every year as his singular goal. He showed true patience. 

 

Nothing in Benning's appeoach has screamed patience yet.

 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, 13231 said:

I'm still waiting for the day people realize there's more than one way to rebuild. Each team goes through their own unique circumstances in undergoing and reaching the conclusion of their rebuild. With that said, the OP is not wrong imo, the Canucks and Avs have similar caliber of young players they've constructed their teams around. Only difference I see is that the Avs started much earlier. 2009 to be exact. They drafted Duchene that year, a piece that led them to the a chunk of their young talent. Keeping aside the few awfully bad and negative takes on these boards and the media, and especially after the early exits of Edmonton & Toronto, I think most people are right to assume we are building our team the right way and are on course to become contenders in the near future. 

At least we haven't cut many corners.   The only thing that bugs me a little about the fan base - i do think for the most part the vast majority know there is context and that rebuilds take more then drafting high to get to the finish line.   Otherwise EDM and TO and Buff would have multiple cups by now.    

 

What does get me a little is understanding when our rebuild actually started.   For me at least it was 2017.   Before that we were rebuilding because we had more picks and used them wisely.  But we didn't hear the dreaded "R" until that Spring.   Also understand fans (me included) who didn't like Linden being used which i do feel he was.    

 

Overall.   There is for me at least, more to like then not like.   Not all drafting either.   Felt we were in for a very long ride.   And maybe we are only half way there.   Likely more as far as another final appearance without some minor miracle such as Podz coming in like Kovi or Ovi.    Not happening.  

 

JB is above average.   Not great.  Not bad.  Just above average overall and i can live with that because that includes his drafting.   People also need to understand the draft better.   A second is a 50% chance at 100 games on AVERAGE.    The entire rounds after basically the exact same thing.   First rounders....well let's just say he's punching well above his weight class there as far as quality goes.   JV is only 1.5 seasons away from not being a bust and OJ could still play his 400 games too (bust line for 4-6ths).   QHs and EP will both play 1000 plus games if they are healthy.   BB maybe too.   Makes up for a lot. 

 

Podz at ten so far is another coupe.   We've waited, he hasn't slipped in fact he's moved up considering the draft class before him and the one after him are included 10-18th depending on where you go best prospect in the world is dynamite in the bottle.   BB managed 22 after his Hobey Baker season.  AG 50.  Hogs 29th at the start of the year. 

 

Unless this stops - guys stop coming in and doing well, OR JB messes the cap up OR he doesn't make a trade again that's a little obscure but a rabbit out of his hat i'm also done with him.  Until then i've got the patience to see it through.   And do look forward to either him or his successor, negotiating from a position of strength as far as UFAs go.   Did all the right things to make sure that is still intact.   (didn't force guys to waive). 

[Fred65]

Quote

 JV is only 1.5 seasons away from not being a bust and OJ could still play his 400 games too

I venture to guess you may be the only poster here that believes JV and OJ are top of the order draft selections, McCann wasn't a brilliant pick either ( what made it worse was we traded McCann for another winner.... Gudbranson ) As for trades and FA's signings we all know that story by heart. The question for me is how come ownership can now sanction buy outs for poor signing without firing JB. He's going to take multiple  millions out of their pockets

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Benning didnt really choose to be "patient" last offseason. He tried to go the impatient route actually. He went hard after OEL which thankfully didn't end up happening. He did not have the cap space to keep his own 30 year old UFA guys but focused on two other 30 year olds to use up over 10 mil in cap space instead, one with a lot of term left.

 

You are confusing parience with handcuffing himself.

 

Mackinnon broke out after he signed his contract but anyone who watched him play could tell he was on the cusp of being a franchise quality player. That contract was and is a steal.

 

The Avs are not anywhere near a spot where they have to blow up their team if they dont win a cup in two years. If history shows Sakic's approach, he will identify players that he doesnt see as necessary core guys and trade them while they still have a lot of value to restock the shelves.

 

The criticism of him was short sighted. He had a plan and deserves credit for not deviating wildly from it with reactionary moves to speed things up. Thats why they are where they are now. He didnt chase the playoffs every year as his singular goal. He showed true patience. 

 

Nothing in Benning's appeoach has screamed patience yet.

 

They don't have to blow anything up, but like CHI did for many years, and like TB the past few years to keep where they are and extend their cycle window, they will be forced to trade players even with McKinnon.   To be clear - what i was trying to communicate, with the team they have right now they have this year and next year, after that the team is going to adapt and change.   Kadri and Borokosky or what not they won't be able to ice as much.   Cap era it's the way it is.  

[IBatch]

57 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

I venture to guess you may be the only poster here that believes JV and OJ are top of the order draft selections, McCann wasn't a brilliant pick either ( what made it worse was we traded McCann for another winner.... Gudbranson ) As for trades and FA's signings we all know that story by heart. The question for me is how come ownership can now sanction buy outs for poor signing without firing JB. He's going to take multiple  millions out of their pockets

Lol.  That is not what i said.  One bit.  What i said was as far as scouts go when drafting 4-6 their bust or break or make mark is 500 games.   JV and OJ are often called busts on this site and maybe they are.   But they haven't got there yet which is the point.   It's also to provide some realism.  1-3 is 700.   7-10 400.   Past that all they hope to get is 200 games.   Why?  That's the averages.  That is the actual math.   And that doesn't even consider quality.   Whats better, 1000 plus games of first overall pick Chris Phillips, or 750ish  games of Bure?  Every single pick is a lottery ticket.  Even first overalls.  How many times is it someone else that becomes the best pick?  Often.    Point is a guy like Torres (who JV could have been) isn't a bust.   A bust is Stefan, Yakupov blah blah blah.   Daigle almost wasn't so bad even though he was hyped like Lindros, Mario, Tavares and Crosby... but still didn't quite make it.   Scouts are looking for meaningful games played first and foremost.   After that quality comes into play for sure. 

 

If OJ plays 500 meaningful games - said it earlier for 490ish yet, heck maybe next year he's a calder finalist wouldn't that give some haters shame.    He's not a bust until he is a bust.   

Edited June 2, 2021 by IBatch

[Fred65]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Lol.  That is not what i said.  One bit.  What i said was as far as scouts go when drafting 4-6 their bust or break or make mark is 500 games.   JV and OJ are often called busts on this site and maybe they are.   But they haven't got there yet which is the point.   It's also to provide some realism.  1-3 is 700.   7-10 400.   Past that all they hope to get is 200 games.   Why?  That's the averages.  That is the actual math.   And that doesn't even consider quality.   Whats better, 1000 plus games of first overall pick Chris Phillips, or 750ish  games of Bure?  Every single pick is a lottery ticket.  Even first overalls.  How many times is it someone else that becomes the best pick?  Often.    Point is a guy like Torres (who JV could have been) isn't a bust.   A bust is Stefan, Yakupov blah blah blah.   Daigle almost wasn't so bad even though he was hyped like Lindros, Mario, Tavares and Crosby... but still didn't quite make it.   Scouts are looking for meaningful games played first and foremost.   After that quality comes into play for sure. 

I think that was my point few if any believe JV needs more time, some just cant handle it. OJ has been passed by Rathbone, he might make it on the third pairing but I have my reservation. I wouldn't be shocked if they cut and run, maybe a trade for a comparable RHD ?