Stop comparing the Canucks to the Leafs (they re-built wrong) Lets compare them to Colorado one of the current cup contenders in the league.

[ShawnAntoski]

11 minutes ago, awalk said:

Well keep in mind those early years were with expansion draft Predators

I get it, mostly just pointing out that it takes time and opportunities to get to where he is at and looking at his yearly records after those initial years has been above 500 (for the most part) - gradual yearly improvements was perhaps why he was given those chances ?

Edited June 9, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[awalk]

6 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

I get it, mostly just pointing out that it takes time and opportunities to get to where he is at and looking at his yearly records after those initial years has been above 500 (for the most part - gradual yearly improvements.

As a side note, pretty interesting to go back and look at that 1998 expansion draft and the rag tag collection of players they were able to draft. So different from expansion drafts now.

[ShawnAntoski]

3 minutes ago, awalk said:

As a side note, pretty interesting to go back and look at that 1998 expansion draft and the rag tag collection of players they were able to draft. So different from expansion drafts now.

I was looking at the difference awhile back as well - I guess, with the high cost to join the rules were changed; and they probably learned from the past/other leagues that it doesn’t benefit the league as whole when an expansion team is struggling from the start. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[SilentSam]

8 hours ago, tas said:

 

 

if the avs lose to vegas in the second round, are they still the model rebuild? because I feel like the canucks have already climbed that mountain ...

 

no matter how good a rebuild looks, it's a failure until the team wins a cup, right?

Hockey,    .. genius from others failures.

Luck looking like a God sent plan.

 

[Dr. Crossbar]

20 hours ago, IBatch said:

AVs had a big hole on 2C which they filled by trading Barrie for Kadri, and Sakic traded Duchene who should have ended up as a first for them, but instead 4th overall (Bryam) - very lucky in that regard.   In other words they started to pawn off their previous core or eldest core members.    In two years (maybe one) we will be facing a similar situation. Should we trade two of Miller/BB/Horvat to build around EP/QHs (they rebuilt around McKinnon and Rantanen)?   If we do it's not a failure if those end up the results.    It's just the way the league is now.   Rebuilds take time.   NYR rebuilt with Panarin and Zinbanejad....taking the short cut, same way TO did with Tavares.    I'm fine waiting another year, but do think a trade is needed as in a big name core player trade to help fill some holes and build for later.    

Agree with what you say here. This may be the last year that we pick in the top ten. So, come two years from now, I don't see how we're going to fill the voids unless we start trading up.

 

I'm open to big moves to get even better. Two years from now, though, I think we need to start our rise to contending to appease the market. By that time, it'll be nine years into this. And two years from now Boeser will be 26, Horvat will be 28, and Miller will be 30. Whatever it takes to start that rise to contending and meet that goal. 

 

 

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Agree with what you say here. This may be the last year that we pick in the top ten. So, come two years from now, I don't see how we're going to fill the voids unless we start trading up.

 

I'm open to big moves to get even better. Two years from now, though, I think we need to start our rise to contending to appease the market. By that time, it'll be nine years into this. And two years from now Boeser will be 26, Horvat will be 28, and Miller will be 30. Whatever it takes to start that rise to contending and meet that goal. 

 

 

Yes it will be our time.   Might need a re-set like Sakic did (and BTW he was given a sh!t ton of flak from both his fanbase and the Eastern media at least for waiting so long to trade Duchene after he wanting out ... now he's in the cat-bird seat - again patience folks)  or even better somehow it all just comes together.   Hope one of the two works out.   Rebuilding in two years for sure will change to either a re-set or retooling either way.   We can't end up like Buffalo or EDM can we?!!   Good grief.   I'm just going to wait and see what happens next year.  Alf maybe your crystal ball is required here. 

[Dr. Crossbar]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes it will be our time.   Might need a re-set like Sakic did (and BTW he was given a sh!t ton of flak from both his fanbase and the Eastern media at least for waiting so long to trade Duchene after he wanting out ... now he's in the cat-bird seat - again patience folks)  or even better somehow it all just comes together.   Hope one of the two works out.   Rebuilding in two years for sure will change to either a re-set or retooling either way.   We can't end up like Buffalo or EDM can we?!!   Good grief.   I'm just going to wait and see what happens next year.  Alf maybe your crystal ball is required here. 

Agree with you on all of this. We may be forced to reset, which won't be a bad thing - more natural progression of a longer rebuild - but I'm a bit leary of going down the reset rabbit hole right now. I'm looking forward to this offseason to see what "aggressive" looks like.

[appleboy]

I think the big mistake that Buffalo made was trying to rush things . The best way is to sign low cost short term UFA's and continue to draft. 

If you trade away picks for older players you create a short window to win.  A drafted player takes a bit to develop but gives 10 to 15 years. When you use draft picks to acquire older players you create a gap in your development system and put a short time line on the success of your core group.

If it doesn't work you end up with no one coming through your system for a few years and in many cases salary issues because of high paid older players.

 

Stay the coarse and draft.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

I think the big mistake that Buffalo made was trying to rush things . The best way is to sign low cost short term UFA's and continue to draft. 

If you trade away picks for older players you create a short window to win.  A drafted player takes a bit to develop but gives 10 to 15 years. When you use draft picks to acquire older players you create a gap in your development system and put a short time line on the success of your core group.

If it doesn't work you end up with no one coming through your system for a few years and in many cases salary issues because of high paid older players.

 

Stay the coarse and draft.

Sometimes the drafting itself creates its own gap if it's not good as well.   And at some point a team needs to go for it.    Drafting for sure is king, both for rebuilding and re-tooling teams.   I'm worried we haven't done enough of that, and that this teams going to need a re-set.   Which is ok.   The only thing i haven't seen JB do yet is make a big trade that can fix several holes at once.   Quin did that by acquiring McLean, Courtnall, Ronning,  Momesso etc... and of course his wonder trade Stajanov (think 7th overall bust) for Naslund.    Miller and Schmidt were good adds at a fair cost.   Especially given they are both tradable/recyclable assets.   JB needs to be on his toes this off season.    We are close to becoming relevant again,  but aways yet from becoming a contender.   

[appleboy]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Sometimes the drafting itself creates its own gap if it's not good as well.   And at some point a team needs to go for it.    Drafting for sure is king, both for rebuilding and re-tooling teams.   I'm worried we haven't done enough of that, and that this teams going to need a re-set.   Which is ok.   The only thing i haven't seen JB do yet is make a big trade that can fix several holes at once.   Quin did that by acquiring McLean, Courtnall, Ronning,  Momesso etc... and of course his wonder trade Stajanov (think 7th overall bust) for Naslund.    Miller and Schmidt were good adds at a fair cost.   Especially given they are both tradable/recyclable assets.   JB needs to be on his toes this off season.    We are close to becoming relevant again,  but aways yet from becoming a contender.   

To me , trading draft picks should be a last resort and only if it is a piece that you think will allow a deep cup run.

Drafting is the key and they would be wise to spend in that area. If you are not having success developing your own players then make changes until you are.

I am always fine with good hockey trades . Just keep our picks out of it. I am fine with them acquiring more. LOL

[oldnews]

It's irrelevent who you 'compare' a team to.  You can 'compare' your team to any team.

 

What's relevent is how you build your team.  Chasing other builds is not a substiution for knowing what you, yourself, are doing.

[aGENT]

23 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Agree with what you say here. This may be the last year that we pick in the top ten. So, come two years from now, I don't see how we're going to fill the voids unless we start trading up.

 

I'm open to big moves to get even better. Two years from now, though, I think we need to start our rise to contending to appease the market. By that time, it'll be nine years into this. And two years from now Boeser will be 26, Horvat will be 28, and Miller will be 30. Whatever it takes to start that rise to contending and meet that goal. 

 

 

I think that's the plan honestly. We're still likely picking in the 10-20 range the next couple years where you can still find good players to continue to cycle in from below.

 

But yes, in the next 2-3 years, we'll continue to recycle some (not all) of our expiring, 30+ players in to youth and picks, and youth will continue to take their spots.

 

4 hours ago, appleboy said:

To me , trading draft picks should be a last resort and only if it is a piece that you think will allow a deep cup run.

Drafting is the key and they would be wise to spend in that area. If you are not having success developing your own players then make changes until you are.

I am always fine with good hockey trades . Just keep our picks out of it. I am fine with them acquiring more. LOL

I mean if we can grab a similar to our core, +/- 22 YO RD or 3C, it wouldn't be the end of the world but no, I'm not a fan of moving our 9OA for a guy nearing UFA.

 

Rather just see if some of Parayko/Risto/Lindholm/Jenner/Paul etc make it to UFA next year in that case. I agree, we need to continue stockpiling kids.

Edited June 10, 2021 by aGENT

[stawns]

On 6/8/2021 at 7:13 PM, SilentSam said:

Every player on the Avalanche can carry the puck, and find the offensive or defensive position to go to.…. And they are tough.

 

Did not age well.  Though I do agree

[DeNiro]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

Did not age well.  Though I do agree

Just like when Tampa faced the Bruins in 2011 they got screwed by the refs.

 

Colorado gets the calls that series is much different and the refs knew it.

[Convincing John]

@Arrow 1983the avalanche patiently collected assets and drafted well. Over more than a decade. There is absolutely nothing patient about what we did here. I don’t know how on earth you came up with a blog explaining the similarities when there are absolutely no similarities in the method. They did not build a team from the basement at a max salary cap. They still, rarely give up futures for instant gratification. This is like comparing an Bag of beef jerky to a cow. 

[Convincing John]

On 6/2/2021 at 11:00 AM, ShawnAntoski said:

This context matters and only because of JBs’ drafting - does both teams seems to have similar pieces but the methodology is very different l.

Imo, Colorado is one of the teams that tanks all the way in a losing season: plays & showcases the future; whearas, the Canucks are constantly retooling cause there is no appetite for a tanking team in this market - just look at the discussions in this forum about the importance of the loser points agains Calgary: winning culture !

I seriously can’t wrap my head around how Sakic and Benning can be compared. Mind you, Benning has the potential to do what Sakic did if he utilized his strength in drafting. If JB showed up, tanked, and collected as many draft picks as possible, we could very easily be lurking in the avalanche shadow right now. People are far too optimistic about our organizational depth. We have some horrendous holes where the avs have mountains. 

[ShawnAntoski]

21 hours ago, Convincing John said:

I seriously can’t wrap my head around how Sakic and Benning can be compared. Mind you, Benning has the potential to do what Sakic did if he utilized his strength in drafting. If JB showed up, tanked, and collected as many draft picks as possible, we could very easily be lurking in the avalanche shadow right now. People are far too optimistic about our organizational depth. We have some horrendous holes where the avs have mountains. 

Yeah, the yearly results don’t have any biases but the lecturing from the winning culture crowd will tell you that tanking are for losers and will spout out numerous failed top 3 picks with out mentioning the Hedman’s, Kane’s, Crosby’s and so on - that has won the cup or is competing for a cup (MacKinnon).  Ofcourse, there are the disasters that are Buffalo or Deadmonton and there are also the other side.  Imo, when it comes to the draft the overall talent of the draft will have to considered and when it comes to the reasons why some teams fail & others not - then leadership (including the coach) will have to be considered as well when discussing these topics.

Edited June 12, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[Arrow 1983]

18 hours ago, Convincing John said:

@Arrow 1983the avalanche patiently collected assets and drafted well. Over more than a decade. There is absolutely nothing patient about what we did here. I don’t know how on earth you came up with a blog explaining the similarities when there are absolutely no similarities in the method. They did not build a team from the basement at a max salary cap. They still, rarely give up futures for instant gratification. This is like comparing an Bag of beef jerky to a cow. 

simple I wasn't comparing re-builds I was comparing types of players

 

to me the re-build re-tool doesn't mater what words one uses. It is the type of players that one acquires that matters more. Does the player care about winning or making money. 

 

Is the offseason about improving ones game or having fun getting drunk on the lake in their boat.

 

I remember when Boeser came into the league he was shot was one of the best the next year he struggled to score and then this season the story's came out that he worked on his shot all season long. 

 

Horvat improves year after year. 

 

Miller wears his heart on his shoulder like Kes and Bur did for this team before

 

Hughes and Pettersson both come of as guys who want to improve and get better each year and you can say the same about Demko. All this said does it matter how you got the players or how long it took? I think not.