The Defense of JB and co

[Alflives]

Just now, Fred65 said:

You can't chnage a roster by draft picks, they simply age out before the job is completed. I loved it when Sakic turned a selfish head case, Duchene,  into two great defense men Byram and Girard. Plus of course the drafted Makar not many teams have this strength on their blue line. They're set up for the next decade

Yup, trading out Douchene was an excellent move by Joe.  Benning has created his core through draft, and trade too.  Miller was a steal.  Hughes, Petey, Bess, Pods, Bone, Demko.  These guys are fantastic picks, and excellent young players.  I think he only inherited Bo.  Who, on the Avs did Little Joe inherit?  Mackinnon, Landeskog, Rantinen.  I’d say Benning is doing a great job, considering he started with only Bo.  

[wallstreetamigo]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Lockwood is already an NHLer.  Lind is close.  Woo is a year or two away.  One or two guys stepping in each year is a lot.  We have guys in college still, and in Europe who will continue to develop.  Plus, the picks from this draft, and future drafts.  We are going to see the best ever decade for our club.  2022-2030.  (Okay, 8 years:)

You are assuming one or two guys can actually step in every year though.

 

Little chance imo that a head coach and GM that have defined making the playoffs as their ultimate goal will trust Lockwood with any significant responsibility.

 

It also depends a lot on what Benning does. If he re-signs Edler, what is the chance both Juolevi and Rathbone actually play? If he acquires another LHD, same possibility. 

 

Depending what Benning can do to generate cap space and what he can sign Hughes and EP for, I expect its far more likely he re-signs several guys and/or acquires replacements of similar quality on the UFA market.

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

A 7th rounder who’s probably a top 5 prospect for us right now. This is exactly what this team needs, diamonds in the rough picks.

You raise a really good point Bert.  Every team misses with some of their top picks during their rebuilding phase.  It’s those picks in the later rounds that make up for those misses.  And Benning appears to find those “diamonds in the rough” like you say.  Most would agree that OJ and Jake were misses, right?  But don’t Bone and Hogs cover for those?  And then ther3 are guys like McDonagh who are bonus.  Even a guy like Gaudette, a later round pick, was turned into a useful bottom six player, who is on an excellent contract.  Benning is building a really good team, and mostly by making good draft picks.  

[Gurn]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Most would agree that OJ and Jake were misses, right?

Some would agree, others, like myself would not.

[wallstreetamigo]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yup, trading out Douchene was an excellent move by Joe.  Benning has created his core through draft, and trade too.  Miller was a steal.  Hughes, Petey, Bess, Pods, Bone, Demko.  These guys are fantastic picks, and excellent young players.  I think he only inherited Bo.  Who, on the Avs did Little Joe inherit?  Mackinnon, Landeskog, Rantinen.  I’d say Benning is doing a great job, considering he started with only Bo.  

The only core player Sakic inherited is Landeskog. Mackinnon was the first player Colorado drafted after he was named GM. And he had been with the team in a senior role for the 2 previous years. He drafted Rantanen too. And turned over the entire core of the team.

Edited June 6, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

You are assuming one or two guys can actually step in every year though.

 

Little chance imo that a head coach and GM that have defined making the playoffs as their ultimate goal will trust Lockwood with any significant responsibility.

 

It also depends a lot on what Benning does. If he re-signs Edler, what is the chance both Juolevi and Rathbone actually play? If he acquires another LHD, same possibility. 

 

Depending what Benning can do to generate cap space and what he can sign Hughes and EP for, I expect its far more likely he re-signs several guys and/or acquires replacements of similar quality on the UFA market.

 

Benning has created is a good core, and a couple openings for younger guys to compete for in supporting roles.  Then those guys will push the core guys for minutes.  It’s looking really good for several years to come.  

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, gurn said:

Some would agree, others, like myself would not.

Regardless of whether OJ and Jake were misses, the point is Bone and Hogs are awesome picks, and play the same roles.

[wallstreetamigo]

Just now, Alflives said:

Benning has created is a good core, and a couple openings for younger guys to compete for in supporting roles.  Then those guys will push the core guys for minutes.  It’s looking really good for several years to come.  

I think people overestimate the quality of the guys still in our prospect pool significantly. I hope I am wrong but outside of Podkolzin I just dont see a bunch of sure things there.

[Bertuzzipunch]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You raise a really good point Bert.  Every team misses with some of their top picks during their rebuilding phase.  It’s those picks in the later rounds that make up for those misses.  And Benning appears to find those “diamonds in the rough” like you say.  Most would agree that OJ and Jake were misses, right?  But don’t Bone and Hogs cover for those?  And then ther3 are guys like McDonagh who are bonus.  Even a guy like Gaudette, a later round pick, was turned into a useful bottom six player, who is on an excellent contract.  Benning is building a really good team, and mostly by making good draft picks.  

Yeah even tho we missed on the Virtanen pick i mean we got demko in the 2nd. As far as im concerned thats a winning draft getting a franchise goalie in the draft even if nobody else works out lol 

[Bertuzzipunch]

3 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I think people overestimate the quality of the guys still in our prospect pool significantly. I hope I am wrong but outside of Podkolzin I just dont see a bunch of sure things there.

No you’re right its very weak atm. Trading picks realistically isnt very smart for us to do but im okay with future picks like 2023 or so. We hqve a lot of picks this yeqr so we need to stuff as many players as possible.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Bertuzzipunch

[RU SERIOUS]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Yup, trading out Douchene was an excellent move by Joe.  Benning has created his core through draft, and trade too.  Miller was a steal.  Hughes, Petey, Bess, Pods, Bone, Demko.  These guys are fantastic picks, and excellent young players.  I think he only inherited Bo.  Who, on the Avs did Little Joe inherit?  Mackinnon, Landeskog, Rantinen.  I’d say Benning is doing a great job, considering he started with only Bo.  

Agree, all of those picks he made are looking fine.   Interesting thing I saw on the Donnie & Dhali show from Friday though.   They had some pro scout guy on.  I think his name was Shane Malloy if memory serves me.   He was talking about last year's disastrous draft for the Canucks where we had no 1st, no 2nd and he predicted that the Finnish "Jurmo kid" that JB picked in the 3rd, would never make it to the NHL and likely no one in the 4th Round or beyond, meaning that would leave that entire draft year with zero results.  That's the sort of thing that this team can't afford to do - for the good of the long run because it is so important to leave "something in the cupboards".

 

My fear as previously mentioned,  is that JB may be inclined to do the same this year to get his "NOW" player in the lineup - in the name of "self preservation", as I can guarantee you 100% - that he'll be thrown out if we miss the playoffs again next year because I don't think even Aqua-Line has a stomach to allow JB to lead the team into a 9th year of failure & mediocrity even if we have a half dozen "fun players" to watch in the regular season and I suspect that JB knows this all to well.

[Fred65]

RANTANEN was drafted by Joe ie he was not inherited. Vcr who ended up 8th O/A traded to aquire the 9th O/A pick and chose Horvat, which IMO was an astute trade

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, Fred65 said:

RANTANEN was drafted by Joe ie he was not inherited. Vcr who ended up 8th O/A traded to aquire the 9th O/A pick and chose Horvat, which IMO was an astute trade

Mackinnon was drafted by Sakic too. The only current core player he inherited is Landeskog. He had Barrie, O'Reilly, and Duchene though and turned them into a true cup contending core.

 

The Duchene trade alone was highway robbery for Col from both the other teams.

[Honky Cat]

48 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Here is the moment when he was hired where for the first ( and latst time ) he layed out the Canucks future plan. I know you're going to split hairs but the intent and the plan was clear

 

 

Where does he say there was 'no need to rebuild the team' ?

Thats what you said.

[Fred65]

6 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

Where does he say there was 'no need to rebuild the team' ?

Thats what you said.

 Splitting hairs. His view, intention  and his direction for the club was clear, it flopped, badly

[Honky Cat]

53 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I care little for what terms a team uses for their plan. Its the actions they take that truly define what their actual strategy is. Benning has retooled every year he has been here with the short term goal of making the playoffs. Accidentally getting high draft picks when it failed isnt an actual plan to rebuild through the draft.

 

Linden was fired as soon as he declared he wanted a rebuild. JB wasnt. So that itself explains clearly that Benning was not thinking rebuild in the way you suggest.

 

Benning was hired to get the Canucks to the playoffs. The question is, if the core was such garbage when he took over, why are we now hailing him as a hero for trying to get a garbage team to the playoffs and sacrificing long term success in doing so?

 

 

The team did not make any moves to be a playoff team in 2017-18 or 2018-19 in free agency, or the TDL. They went all in, in the summer of 2019.

 

Linden wanted a 4 year rebuild in 2018. Benning and ownership thought the team was close to contending for a playoff spot. The primary core pieces were there ( Horvat,Hughes, Boeser,Pettersson, Markstrom). Miller was added.

 

Nobody is hailing Benning as a hero for getting the Canucks in the playoffs, all i'm saying is that he turned around a stale core for one last season (adding Vrbata, Bonino helped). My own opinion is that making the playoffs in 2015 was one of the worst things to happen to the team. It gave management a false sense of confidence in that tired squad, and we were faced with two more years of rebuild on the fly.

[Fred65]

19 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Mackinnon was drafted by Sakic too. The only current core player he inherited is Landeskog. He had Barrie, O'Reilly, and Duchene though and turned them into a true cup contending core.

 

The Duchene trade alone was highway robbery for Col from both the other teams.

It should be remembered why Sakic got MacKinnon ... the Avs were a crummy team. MacKinnon was  drafted 1st O/A That was the starting point for a successful rebuild

[Honky Cat]

21 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

 Splitting hairs. His view, intention  and his direction for the club was clear, it flopped, badly

.So he never said 'we dont need to rebuild' then.?

Pretty bad when you actually have to fabricate a lie to prove a point.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Honky Cat

[Honky Cat]

8 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

It should be remembered why Sakic got MacKinnon ... the Avs were a crummy team. MacKinnon was  drafted 1st O/A That was the starting point for a successful rebuild

Wow, Peter Chiarelli must be &^@#ing genius for drafting Connor McDavid then?

[aGENT]

45 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I think people overestimate the quality of the guys still in our prospect pool significantly. I hope I am wrong but outside of Podkolzin I just dont see a bunch of sure things there.

Who does? That's what happens when your better prospects all graduate.

 

The majority of what we (currently) have left in the prospect pool are likely depth/support players, only some of which likely go on to meaningful NHL careers. 

 

That said Podkolzin is blue chip. Rathbone looks pretty much there as well. Woo while not likely as high of a ceiling (2nd pair... maybe?), is a pretty safe bet to be an NHL'er, even if 'only' 3rd pair. MDP looks like he has a good shot at being at least a decent backup in a couple years (with Silovs developing well behind him). Lind, Gadjovich, McDonagh, Jasek, Lockwood, Karlsson, Persson, Costmar, Utunen, Focht etc...all trending well with a solid shot at becoming depth/support players.

 

You don't need those guys to be home runs, they just need a few to work out and play.

 

We'll also be adding another top, blue chip guy (maybe two) with our 1st (and 2nd?) this year and we're likely still a couple years of picking in the 10-20 range after this and likely to add a couple more.

 

It's not like the pool today is static and doomed to stay frozen there. But it will continue to drop out of the top 10 as we continue to graduate players and start drafting later and later. That's what happens.

Edited June 6, 2021 by aGENT