The Defense of JB and co

[Warhippy]

42 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Benning's team has also been terrible almost that entire time and had a much bigger need to rush their young players. The Avs are much deeper and have several great prospects they have not rushed.

Since you seem to want to completely ignore me, I will once again pick apart your logic.

 

Sakic, GM since 2013 walked in to a team with a 1st overall lottery win, with Duchene, Barrie, Landeskog.  He then managed to successfully draft Rantanen at 10th which was a coup, Makar at 4th who was a consensus and Byram at 4 who was a consensus pick as well.  Under Sakic the Avs finished 1st in the newly formed central in his first year, then 7th, 6th, 7th, 4th, 5th before FINALLY finishing 2nd and first in his division.  

 

Benning walked in to a team at 2014 with Hansen, A dying Burrows and aged Sedins, Edler, Tanev and Horvat.  His first draft in 2014 was Virtanen, Boeser, Juolevi, Petterson, Hughes.  Under Benning the Canucks finished 2nd, 6th, 7th, 5th 5th 3rd in their division with this year being a 7th overall finish in the north.

 

This is keeping in mind that this year was an utter aberration.

 

To suggest that somehow someway the Avs were, are deeper and didn't have to rush their young players when the ONLY player they sat on was essentially Byram and were not also terrible is a massive fallacy and an untruth.  You are actually looking at incredibly comparable teams in terms of finishes and much of the "depth" the Avs had was in place before Sakic took over unless it was brought in via trade or UFA signing.

42 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Benning and Sakic are both good drafters. Benning isnt significantly better. You make it sound like Benning is twice as good. He isn't.

Sakic has managed to draft highly 5 times in his tenure.  With a 1st overall lottery win, he then managed to successfully draft Rantanen at 10th which was a coup, Makar at 4th who was a consensus and Byram at 4 who was a consensus pick as well. He has as of yet managed to draft nobody outside of the 1st round who has played any meaningful NHL games.  At all.  None.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005307.html  

 

Benning has drafted highly 4 times, but has in fact produced the following players in the NHL 

2014:  Virtanen, McCaan, Demko, Forsling.

2015:  Boeser, Gaudette

2016: Juolevi, Lockwood

2017:  Pettersson, Lind, Gadjovich, DiPietro Rathbone

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008756.html

 

 

While some of those names on the Canucks squad are not yet playing meaningful seasons in the NHL are all to a person either playing full AHL minutes or have and will be playing in the NHL consistently next season.

 

Benning is not just significantly better it is staggering how poorly the Avs have actually drafted outside of that vaunted 1st round and top 10

42 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

We will truly see how much of the credit is actually owed to Benning in the next few years. Remember, Brackett was there for EP, Hughes, and Podkolzin. The drafts Benning ran before and since have been a bit sketchy, especially in the 1st round. The only exception is Boeser. But he was a consensus BPA pick at that spot too. Same as Hughes was actually. It will be interesting to see going forward.

 

Considering I would trade our core for theirs 100 times out of 100, at least one person would disagree with you.

See above.

 

The core you would trade 100 x out of 100 was LITERALLY based on draft luck and little more.  At any point in time that Avs core prior to Sakic taking over and since could easily look like this

 

2009:  Duchene/O'Reilly vs Kane/Klingberg

2011:  Landeskog/Siemens vs Larsson/Baertschi

2013:  Mackinnon vs Barkov

2015:  Rantanen vs Crouse

2016:  Jost vs Mcleod

2017:  Makar vs Glass

 

How one can say Benning is not a significantly better drafter than Sakic in the face of this evidence, then go on to say or suggest that the drafts benning ran have been sketchy shows how little actual knowledge or credibility is being shown in the post.

 

Sorry WS, there's a perceived slant and bias that does not jive with the actual truth here in your statements

Edited June 7, 2021 by Warhippy

[ShawnAntoski]

4 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Since you seem to want to completely ignore me, I will once again pick apart your logic.

 

Sakic, GM since 2013 walked in to a team with a 1st overall lottery win, with Duchene, Barrie, Landeskog.  He then managed to successfully draft Rantanen at 10th which was a coup, Makar at 4th who was a consensus and Byram at 4 who was a consensus pick as well.  Under Sakic the Avs finished 1st in the newly formed central in his first year, then 7th, 6th, 7th, 4th, 5th before FINALLY finishing 2nd and first in his division.  

 

Benning walked in to a team at 2014 with Hansen, A dying Burrows and aged Sedins, Edler, Tanev and Horvat.  His first draft in 2014 was Virtanen, Boeser, Juolevi, Petterson, Hughes.  Under Benning the Canucks finished 2nd, 6th, 7th, 5th 5th 3rd in their division with this year being a 7th overall finish in the north.

 

This is keeping in mind that this year was an utter aberration.

 

To suggest that somehow someway the Avs were, are deeper and didn't have to rush their young players when the ONLY player they sat on was essentially Byram and were not also terrible is a massive fallacy and an untruth.  You are actually looking at incredibly comparable teams in terms of finishes and much of the "depth" the Avs had was in place before Sakic took over unless it was brought in via trade or UFA signing.

Sakic has managed to draft highly 5 times in his tenure.  With a 1st overall lottery win, he then managed to successfully draft Rantanen at 10th which was a coup, Makar at 4th who was a consensus and Byram at 4 who was a consensus pick as well. He has as of yet managed to draft nobody outside of the 1st round who has played any meaningful NHL games.  At all.  None.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005307.html  

 

Benning has drafted highly 4 times, but has in fact produced the following players in the NHL 

2014:  Virtanen, McCaan, Demko, Forsling.

2015:  Boeser, Gaudette

2016: Juolevi, Lockwood

2017:  Pettersson, Lind, Gadjovich, DiPietro Rathbone

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008756.html

 

 

While some of those names on the Canucks squad are not yet playing meaningful seasons in the NHL are all to a person either playing full AHL minutes or have and will be playing in the NHL consistently next season.

 

Benning is not just significantly better it is staggering how poorly the Avs have actually drafted outside of that vaunted 1st round and top 10

See above.

 

The core you would trade 100 x out of 100 was LITERALLY based on draft luck and little more.  At any point in time that Avs core prior to Sakic taking over and since could easily look like this

 

2009:  Duchene/O'Reilly vs Kane/Klingberg

2011:  Landeskog/Siemens vs Larsson/Baertschi

2013:  Mackinnon vs Barkov

2015:  Rantanen vs Crouse

2016:  Jost vs Mcleod

2017:  Makar vs Glass

 

How one can say Benning is not a significantly better drafter than Sakic in the face of this evidence, then go on to say or suggest that the drafts benning ran have been sketchy shows how little actual knowledge or credibility is being shown in the post.

 

Sorry WS, there's a perceived slant and bias that does not jive with the actual truth here in your statements

Reading the back and forth (not the whole thing) - can you your point ?

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Reading the back and forth (not the whole thing) - can you your point ?

can i what my what?

 

Essentially I just shredded his statement about Benning not being a better drafted, about the Avs having a deeper core and prospects they didn't rush and pretty much his entire argument by pointing out the actual proof and suggesting he has an obvious bias which is why he is unable to post any supporting fact to support his statement 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Warhippy

[ShawnAntoski]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

can i what my what

Sorry, auto type - meant surmise your point 

[Warhippy]

Just now, ShawnAntoski said:

Sorry, auto type - meant surmise your point 

done and done

[ShawnAntoski]

8 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

can i what my what?

 

Essentially I just shredded his statement about Benning not being a better drafted, about the Avs having a deeper core and prospects they didn't rush and pretty much his entire argument by pointing out the actual proof and suggesting he has an obvious bias which is why he is unable to post any supporting fact to support his statement 

Thanks - it seems with the constant tweaking of the draft rules and the secret draft lottery, tanking only guarantees a higher percentage of drafting in the top 3 since the lottery is only for the top 3.  With more rule changes coming hopefully this will be the last time we see the usual suspects of: Buf, NJ, and OTT drafting top 3 (?).

 

With JB's drafting record it would make sense to increase the percentage of being able to draft a top 3 player but the biggest thing to consider when tanking (imo) comes down to the talent in the draft - especially on the top end but this market (imo) will not accept a tanking team due to the stigma of a losing culture or perhaps our close proximity to Deadmonton has something to do with this stigma (?).   Also, the biggest x factor is the staff cause it is there job to put it all together on the ice.

[Warhippy]

16 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

can i what my what?

 

Essentially I just shredded his statement about Benning not being a better drafted, about the Avs having a deeper core and prospects they didn't rush and pretty much his entire argument by pointing out the actual proof and suggesting he has an obvious bias which is why he is unable to post any supporting fact to support his statement 

I should add, I am and have been entirely critical of Benning in the past and continue to be.  His stop gaps and some of his trades have left serious questions I cannot answer or address.  Last season and this are years I would give any GM in the league regarding cap management as well as signing and trades but to suggest that somehow the Avs have drafted better or that Benning has not been a better drafting GM than Sakic and the Avs is utterly false.  To suggest the Avs have not rushed their prospects when much of the assets in question were there prior to Sakic taking over, as their drafting since has produced nobody outside of the 1st round is again false.  Them to suggest that the Avs have had much better success than Benning over the same amount of time without factoring assets in place before hand, draft lottery luck and draft positioning is to ignore the entire meat of the argument as it stands because you refuse to accept any evidence that flies in the face of your obvious bias.

 

Your would be the person I was responding to, not the your as in yours or you.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

I think the record speaks for itself.  He has put together I guess a pretty solid core via the draft., however we are still the worst team in our division.  We've been handicapped by bad contracts which was handed by him and it prevented from making meaningful signings when we needed the most.  The bad contracts include Louis Ericsson, Beagle, Rouselle Ferland to some extent Myers, Nate S who is 5.9 million dollar.  We didn't have enough cap room to make key signings such as Tyler Toffoli, because of other bad contracts.   

 

so lets look at why we are struggling.

 

We are struggling with bad players, why is this?  It looks like he's got at least 24 million dollars locked up towards bottom 6 players, which is something fundamentally wrong. 

Again Beagle at 3 million Rouselle 3 million Ferland at 3.5 Louis Ericsson at 6 million and Brandon Sutter at 4.3 these players didn't even dress for us down the stretch.   

 

I can't see why people can still defend this person.

 

Players he's brought in in the past includes guys like Dereck Pouliot, Eric Gudbranson, outright low IQ players that hurted the team more.  Jim Benning also made it obvious he is willing to over pay players like Sam Gagner, Michael Del Zotto.  None of these players worked out for us.

 

Jim Benning is also a short sited gm who seems to be relying on quick fix via free agency to address the problem when he should really be building from ground up.

 

He is not the right man for the job, based on team record, previous transaction and the amount of players that didn't work out at all.  I love this team more than Jim Benning.  If we succeed next year than it's great, but I am as anti Benning as they come.  He needs to go. It's unfortunate he's still our gm. 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

16 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

can i what my what?

 

Essentially I just shredded his statement about Benning not being a better drafted, about the Avs having a deeper core and prospects they didn't rush and pretty much his entire argument by pointing out the actual proof and suggesting he has an obvious bias which is why he is unable to post any supporting fact to support his statement 

Just for perspective, Benning has gotten more NHL games played from players from just his 2014 draft class alone than Sakic has gotten in his last 7 drafts COMBINED (2014-2020).  It’s not even close.

 

Without a gifted MacKinnon from a draft lottery win and Landeskog who was already on the team Sakic’s core isn’t as great as people think.  Byram was also received from a trade for Duchene who was drafted by the previous GM.  So Sakic had the luxury of trading a 3rd overall pick to get another core piece.  Benning has never had that luxury in his 7 years. 

 

Another thing to consider is Sakic took over in 2013.  3 1/2 years later his team finished dead last which allowed him to draft another core piece in Makar.  Even Benning’s Canucks were able to finish higher than Colorado that year and it was one of their worst years in franchise history.  The biggest difference after 2016 was the play of MacKinnon.  He turned into a franchise player in his 5th year.  That’s why I keep saying the Canucks are 2 years away from Colorado.  Because Petey will be in year 5 and Hughes year 4.  That will give us a better determination of where this team is headed. 

[Warhippy]

Just now, ShawnAntoski said:

Thanks - it seems with the constant tweaking of the draft rules and the secret draft lottery, tanking only guarantees a higher percentage of drafting in the top 3 since the lottery is only for the top 3.  With more rule changes coming hopefully this will be the last time we see the usual suspects of: Buf, NJ, and OTT drafting top 3 (?).

 

With JB's drafting record it would make sense to increase the percentage of being able to draft a top 3 player but the biggest thing to consider when tanking (imo) comes down to the talent in the draft - especially on the top end but this market (imo) will not accept a tanking team due to the stigma of a losing culture or perhaps our close proximity to Deadmonton has something to do with this stigma (?).   Also, the biggest x factor is the staff cause it is there job to put it all together on the ice.

You're not wrong at all.  Benning with more picks would be interesting, but he cannot trade to a league unwilling to take on his assets or players.  Nor could he manage to make anyone waive an NTC to try to garner said pieces.

 

The Avs had some serious pieces in place and managed some significant draft and trade luck.  Barrie gave them centre depth in the Kadri return the Nucks never got.  Duchene net them a 4th OA pick, Girard who is a stud and Bowers who was a taxi squad player, the picks received have turned in to nothing.  O'Reilly net them Compher, Gigorenko (who bailed) Zadorov who is in Chicago now and a pick that turned into Meloch or Greer (can't recall) so essentially much of their middle depth is based on 3 assets in place before Sakic even took power, but managed to trade for a decent return.

 

 

 

On the sly though and IMO only...Ottawa has managed to not fall in to the same pit as NJ, Buf and Edm and arguably in my opinion has had one of the best drafting and scouting teams in the entire league over the last 20 years and 

[Warhippy]

8 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

I think the record speaks for itself.  He has put together I guess a pretty solid core via the draft., however we are still the worst team in our division.  We've been handicapped by bad contracts which was handed by him and it prevented from making meaningful signings when we needed the most.  The bad contracts include Louis Ericsson, Beagle, Rouselle Ferland to some extent Myers, Nate S who is 5.9 million dollar.  We didn't have enough cap room to make key signings such as Tyler Toffoli, because of other bad contracts.   

 

so lets look at why we are struggling.

 

We are struggling with bad players, why is this?  It looks like he's got at least 24 million dollars locked up towards bottom 6 players, which is something fundamentally wrong. 

Again Beagle at 3 million Rouselle 3 million Ferland at 3.5 Louis Ericsson at 6 million and Brandon Sutter at 4.3 these players didn't even dress for us down the stretch.   

 

I can't see why people can still defend this person.

 

Players he's brought in in the past includes guys like Dereck Pouliot, Eric Gudbranson, outright low IQ players that hurted the team more.  Jim Benning also made it obvious he is willing to over pay players like Sam Gagner, Michael Del Zotto.  None of these players worked out for us.

 

Jim Benning is also a short sited gm who seems to be relying on quick fix via free agency to address the problem when he should really be building from ground up.

 

He is not the right man for the job, based on team record, previous transaction and the amount of players that didn't work out at all.  I love this team more than Jim Benning.  If we succeed next year than it's great, but I am as anti Benning as they come.  He needs to go. It's unfortunate he's still our gm. 

 

Agreed, some of those stop gaps have absolutely hampered this team.  Having dead cap due to covid for 2 straight years either with no growth hasn't helped anyone.  Wish he could shed that weight, know he;s probably tried but nobody is taking on older players anymore it seems and certainly nobody over the last 18 months is taking ANY cap back of any significance

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Just for perspective, Benning has gotten more NHL games played from players from just his 2014 draft class alone than Sakic has gotten in his last 7 drafts COMBINED (2014-2020).  It’s not even close.

 

Without a gifted MacKinnon from a draft lottery win and Landeskog who was already on the team Sakic’s core isn’t as great as people think.  Byram was also received from a trade for Duchene who was drafted by the previous GM.  So Sakic had the luxury of trading a 3rd overall pick to get another core piece.  Benning has never had that luxury in his 7 years. 

 

Another thing to consider is Sakic took over in 2013.  3 1/2 years later his team finished dead last which allowed him to draft another core piece in Makar.  Even Benning’s Canucks were able to finish higher than Colorado that year and it was one of their worst years in franchise history.  The biggest difference after 2016 was the play of MacKinnon.  He turned into a franchise player in his 5th year.  That’s why I keep saying the Canucks are 2 years away from Colorado.  Because Petey will be in year 5 and Hughes year 4.  That will give us a better determination of where this team is headed. 

Bang on my man.  I posted the same thing with named players.

 

It's actually really shocking, when it comes down to it.  The avs and Oilers have a similar amount of success over the last 8 years outside of the 1st round/top 10 and that's really sad

[MoneypuckOverlord]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

Agreed, some of those stop gaps have absolutely hampered this team.  Having dead cap due to covid for 2 straight years either with no growth hasn't helped anyone.  Wish he could shed that weight, know he;s probably tried but nobody is taking on older players anymore it seems and certainly nobody over the last 18 months is taking ANY cap back of any significance

 

also have he waited one season, minus one beagle ferland or Rouselle signing he would have had the money to sign Petriangelo.  It's rather quite sad actually, I love this team I want to see them do well, but his moves outside of his drafting have been flat out disgusting and awful.  All the players he's brought in has been useless most of them.  I will give credit where it's due. the Dorsett trade was good, the Vanek signing for one year was good, the JT Miller and Motte trades were very helpful.  Everyone else has been very very very bad.  

[ShawnAntoski]

5 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

I think the record speaks for itself.  He has put together I guess a pretty solid core via the draft., however we are still the worst team in our division.  We've been handicapped by bad contracts which was handed by him and it prevented from making meaningful signings when we needed the most.  The bad contracts include Louis Ericsson, Beagle, Rouselle Ferland to some extent Myers, Nate S who is 5.9 million dollar.  We didn't have enough cap room to make key signings such as Tyler Toffoli, because of other bad contracts.   

 

so lets look at why we are struggling.

 

We are struggling with bad players, why is this?  It looks like he's got at least 24 million dollars locked up towards bottom 6 players, which is something fundamentally wrong. 

Again Beagle at 3 million Rouselle 3 million Ferland at 3.5 Louis Ericsson at 6 million and Brandon Sutter at 4.3 these players didn't even dress for us down the stretch.   

 

I can't see why people can still defend this person.

 

Players he's brought in in the past includes guys like Dereck Pouliot, Eric Gudbranson, outright low IQ players that hurted the team more.  Jim Benning also made it obvious he is willing to over pay players like Sam Gagner, Michael Del Zotto.  None of these players worked out for us.

 

Jim Benning is also a short sited gm who seems to be relying on quick fix via free agency to address the problem when he should really be building from ground up.

 

He is not the right man for the job, based on team record, previous transaction and the amount of players that didn't work out at all.  I love this team more than Jim Benning.  If we succeed next year than it's great, but I am as anti Benning as they come.  He needs to go. It's unfortunate he's still our gm. 

 

Yeah, JB inherited some major mismanagements from Gillis: bad drafting which meant no succession plan and bad contracts; whereas, Sakic benefitted from the previous GMs' draft: Duchesne & Landeskog (although, he was already part of the team in a different capacity).   With hindsight both GM inherited very different situations but given the yearly records of there teams both GMs' seems to have different philosophies with asset managements depending on what the team is doing in the given year: contending or not; Sakic seems to sell out in a losing season..

[wai_lai416]

59 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Their defence is currently getting destroyed by Vegas…

lol if their defense is getting destroyed.. i don't even want to know what vegas will do to vancouver's defense this year

[ShawnAntoski]

24 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

You're not wrong at all.  Benning with more picks would be interesting, but he cannot trade to a league unwilling to take on his assets or players.  Nor could he manage to make anyone waive an NTC to try to garner said pieces.

 

The Avs had some serious pieces in place and managed some significant draft and trade luck.  Barrie gave them centre depth in the Kadri return the Nucks never got.  Duchene net them a 4th OA pick, Girard who is a stud and Bowers who was a taxi squad player, the picks received have turned in to nothing.  O'Reilly net them Compher, Gigorenko (who bailed) Zadorov who is in Chicago now and a pick that turned into Meloch or Greer (can't recall) so essentially much of their middle depth is based on 3 assets in place before Sakic even took power, but managed to trade for a decent return.

 

 

 

On the sly though and IMO only...Ottawa has managed to not fall in to the same pit as NJ, Buf and Edm and arguably in my opinion has had one of the best drafting and scouting teams in the entire league over the last 20 years and 

Yeah, Sakic definitely benefitted from the previous GM; his drafting has been decent but his trading and signings have been good.  Although, with the cap - his hardest task (ultimately) will be keeping that talent together; and his strategy of not overspending on complementary players & with the constant in flows of young cheap talent has beniffted them so far.  Lets see how long he keeps this current window open before, he tears it down to transition to the next group - it would be interesting to see how he does it with the draft rules being so different & the secret lottery.

 

With hindsight, JB in FA has been bad and in trades its been getting better but this offseason moves will determine alot about the team moving forward.

Edited June 7, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol if their defense is getting destroyed.. i don't even want to know what vegas will do to vancouver's defense this year

Yeah but the difference is Colorado is supposed to be a Cup contender. You know all the smart moves that Sakic has made in the last 6 years. 6 years later their defence is still getting shredded by Vegas. Time to retool again for Colorado. If they want to win a Cup they will need more truculence, especially on the back end. Maybe Zadorov is available. 

[ShawnAntoski]

7 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol if their defense is getting destroyed.. i don't even want to know what vegas will do to vancouver's defense this year

Watching the game and enjoying this series alot - imo, the team with the goalie that performs the best will win this series.

[Warhippy]

16 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

 

also have he waited one season, minus one beagle ferland or Rouselle signing he would have had the money to sign Petriangelo.  It's rather quite sad actually, I love this team I want to see them do well, but his moves outside of his drafting have been flat out disgusting and awful.  All the players he's brought in has been useless most of them.  I will give credit where it's due. the Dorsett trade was good, the Vanek signing for one year was good, the JT Miller and Motte trades were very helpful.  Everyone else has been very very very bad.  

I'm unsure because im 50/50 on most of his signings which at the time of the signing seemed like good ideas and others were like ok it's not so bad and some flopped others were meh.  He's a solid c- on his signings.  Without the Eriksson, Beagle and Rouselle signings or moderate overpayment on Sutter it's not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be.  My opinion only as I look at every other team in the league and think the same for a lot of other GMs too.

 

Had we not had 2 straight seasons of dead cap either under a covid economy, it doesn't look nearly as bad with an additional $4-$5.5 million cap increase but that's a large what if

[ilduce39]

I think this past season would have been a disaster regardless of how we utilized the cap... but it does stink that next season we’re locked in with some bad money on the books.

 

Just need to ride it out - the key is keeping the guys working hard and improving.  Hopefully we can pick up one middle 6 winger, 3C or RD this offseason and the guys we have fight for a playoff spot. Still think that’s the current talent level.. then next year we’re prime to make some big moves.