The Defense of JB and co

[MoneypuckOverlord]

27 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Just for perspective, Benning has gotten more NHL games played from players from just his 2014 draft class alone than Sakic has gotten in his last 7 drafts COMBINED (2014-2020).  It’s not even close.

 

Without a gifted MacKinnon from a draft lottery win and Landeskog who was already on the team Sakic’s core isn’t as great as people think.  Byram was also received from a trade for Duchene who was drafted by the previous GM.  So Sakic had the luxury of trading a 3rd overall pick to get another core piece.  Benning has never had that luxury in his 7 years. 

 

Another thing to consider is Sakic took over in 2013.  3 1/2 years later his team finished dead last which allowed him to draft another core piece in Makar.  Even Benning’s Canucks were able to finish higher than Colorado that year and it was one of their worst years in franchise history.  The biggest difference after 2016 was the play of MacKinnon.  He turned into a franchise player in his 5th year.  That’s why I keep saying the Canucks are 2 years away from Colorado.  Because Petey will be in year 5 and Hughes year 4.  That will give us a better determination of where this team is headed. 

 

we need to stop comparing benning to another gm at this point. we should just focus on Benning and benning a lone. 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

 

we need to stop comparing benning to another gm at this point. we should just focus on Benning and benning a lone. 

True, but we were having a discussion on Benning’a drafting vs. Sakic’s drafting. Discussions do occur on this forum.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

23 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Yeah, JB inherited some major mismanagements from Gillis: bad drafting which meant no succession plan and bad contracts; whereas, Sakic benefitted from the previous GMs' draft: Duchesne & Landeskog (although, he was already part of the team in a different capacity).   With hindsight both GM inherited very different situations but given the yearly records of there teams both GMs' seems to have different philosophies with asset managements depending on what the team is doing in the given year: contending or not; Sakic seems to sell out in a losing season..

hmmm right now I'm not discussing about comparing him to Joe Sakic, as Joe Sakic had nothing to do with Benning trading for guys like Linden Vey, making ill advised signings like Michal Del Zotto, Derrick Poo Alot , Sam Gagner, I am speaking all Jim Benning about how bad he's done as a GM since the 1st day he's gotten here. 

[Warhippy]

7 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Yeah, Sakic benefitted from the previous GM; his drafting has been decent but his trading and signings have been good.  Although, with the cap - his hardest task (ultimately) will be keeping that talent together; and his strategy of not overspending on complementary players & with the constant in flows of young cheap talent has beniffted them so far.  Lets see how long he keeps this current window open before, he tears it down to transition to the next group - it would be interesting to see how he does it with the draft rules being so different & the secret lottery.

Trading and signings have been absolutely stellar no question.  But when you have a 2/a1b center in Duchene, a 2a/1b defenseman in Barrie and one of the best non selke winning centres in the league in O'Reilly to trade you're gonna get a solid return out of those assets for sure!!!

 

But looking at his post top 10 drafting I am concerned where their influx of depth will come from.  I should say I LOVE the Avs model in terms of speed and control and they make a mockery of corsi stats with their play but is it sustainable?  When those BIG contracts in Mackinnon,, Makar and to a lesser extent kadri and Landeskog come due how will that look with having to plug holes with non RFA depth from the UFA markets?

[Warhippy]

7 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

I think this past season would have been a disaster regardless of how we utilized the cap... but it does stink that next season we’re locked in with some bad money on the books.

 

Just need to ride it out - the key is keeping the guys working hard and improving.  Hopefully we can pick up one middle 6 winger, 3C or RD this offseason and the guys we have fight for a playoff spot. Still think that’s the current talent level.. then next year we’re prime to make some big moves.

There is hope...soon....once the dam bursts on covid and seattle enters the league the cap raise alone should be enough with the new tv deals to see a $6 million increase over the next 2 years which pays for erikssons bloated mess or roussel/beagle

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/canucks

[ShawnAntoski]

1 minute ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

hmmm right now I'm not discussing about comparing him to Joe Sakic, as Joe Sakic had nothing to do with Benning trading for guys like Linden Vey, making ill advised signings like Michal Del Zotto, Derrick Poo Alot , Sam Gagner, I am speaking all Jim Benning about how bad he's done as a GM since the 1st day he's gotten here. 

You are entitled to your own evaluation of JB and we can agree, that his cap mismanagements cannot be compared to how Sakic has handled the Avs cap.

[ShawnAntoski]

58 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Trading and signings have been absolutely stellar no question.  But when you have a 2/a1b center in Duchene, a 2a/1b defenseman in Barrie and one of the best non selke winning centres in the league in O'Reilly to trade you're gonna get a solid return out of those assets for sure!!!

 

But looking at his post top 10 drafting I am concerned where their influx of depth will come from.  I should say I LOVE the Avs model in terms of speed and control and they make a mockery of corsi stats with their play but is it sustainable?  When those BIG contracts in Mackinnon,, Makar and to a lesser extent kadri and Landeskog come due how will that look with having to plug holes with non RFA depth from the UFA markets?

Good points cause (imo) how he keeps all this talent together in a cap world will (more so) determine his legacy as a GM.  So far, most of his moves has helped the team (and not hurt them) cause his cap management(s) has been decent.   

Lets see if he can continue to make trades like the Duchesne and Barrie trade to extend there window with this core group. This coming offseason, they have Landeskog & Makar as major pieces needing a contract - very interesting to see how he handles it compared to our offseason; and in the home front, it is good to hear the rumours that the Canucks are looking to sort out the staff with some veteran presence before making any moves in the roster.

 

Sidenote: with the Barrie trade, Sakic seems to had lost some value as Barrie got closer to FA.

Edited June 7, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[4petesake]

5 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Trading and signings have been absolutely stellar no question.  But when you have a 2/a1b center in Duchene, a 2a/1b defenseman in Barrie and one of the best non selke winning centres in the league in O'Reilly to trade you're gonna get a solid return out of those assets for sure!!!

 

But looking at his post top 10 drafting I am concerned where their influx of depth will come from.  I should say I LOVE the Avs model in terms of speed and control and they make a mockery of corsi stats with their play but is it sustainable?  When those BIG contracts in Mackinnon,, Makar and to a lesser extent kadri and Landeskog come due how will that look with having to plug holes with non RFA depth from the UFA markets?

One thing he has in his favour is MacKinnon himself who has a very team-friendly contract and was recently quoted as saying he’ll take less in his next contract to help the team bring in and/or keep other guys. That certainly sets the table for Landeskog & others for their negotiations. It would be hard to get greedy when your best player speaks like this publicly. That’s a lot of pressure on anyone who has dreams of hitting a home run with their next contract.

 

 I wonder if Petey & Hughes will think along these lines. Wishful thinking but we can hope.

[ShawnAntoski]

6 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

One thing he has in his favour is MacKinnon himself who has a very team-friendly contract and was recently quoted as saying he’ll take less in his next contract to help the team bring in and/or keep other guys. That certainly sets the table for Landeskog & others for their negotiations. It would be hard to get greedy when your best player speaks like this publicly. That’s a lot of pressure on anyone who has dreams of hitting a home run with their next contract.

 

 I wonder if Petey & Hughes will think along these lines. Wishful thinking but we can hope.

It would still be a high value contract with the added year or two to keep the yearly cap hit low (very similar to Crosbys' deals); I wonder what it would take for Makar and Landeskog to sign ?  

Edited June 7, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[ShawnAntoski]

24 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

True, but we were having a discussion on Benning’a drafting vs. Sakic’s drafting. Discussions do occur on this forum.

Yeah, I like these discussions myself.

[4petesake]

2 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Yeah, it would still be a high value contract with the added year or two to keep the yearly cap hit low; I wonder what it would take Makar and Landeskog to sign ?  

That’s crystal ball stuff there isn’t it? NM two more years of 6.3 mil in a flat cap, 15  UFA after this season with Grubauer, Saad & Landeskog being the big-ticket items. I kind of hope Makar signs before Hughes to set the market. 
 

Landeskog probably signs in Colorado again and my guess would be be a small increase on his 5.5. If he wanted a lot more I think he’d have options elsewhere.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

I'm unsure because im 50/50 on most of his signings which at the time of the signing seemed like good ideas and others were like ok it's not so bad and some flopped others were meh.  He's a solid c- on his signings.  Without the Eriksson, Beagle and Rouselle signings or moderate overpayment on Sutter it's not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be.  My opinion only as I look at every other team in the league and think the same for a lot of other GMs too.

 

Had we not had 2 straight seasons of dead cap either under a covid economy, it doesn't look nearly as bad with an additional $4-$5.5 million cap increase but that's a large what if

Far too much made about signings IMO.

 

Guys like MDZ, in the middle of a rebuild, and already long gone, literally don't matter.

 

Yes, Sutter and Beagle are each $1m overpaid. For key, hard minute C positions to a rebuilding club  Neither are remotely a 'problem'. And both expire soon.

 

I have zero issue with Myers deal. It's neither good nor bad.

 

Roussel was a borderline 2nd line producing, 2 way, elite pest, 3rd liner. Entirely worth $3m per year before his injury.

 

Baer hasn't been the same since his blind side concussion issues. Since when are injuries the GM's fault? And like you said, the league is littered with injured/underperforming contracts like these. This is not a 'Benning' issue.

 

Ferland I'll grant was risky AF. Blame that on Benning I suppose. But he'd sure look nice in our middle 6 if healthy.

 

Which brings us to Eriksson, the only meaningful toilet in the bunch. Erase the one, truly bad contract of the bunch and our so called 'cap problems' are laughingly insignificant.

Edited June 7, 2021 by aGENT

[ShawnAntoski]

17 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

That’s crystal ball stuff there isn’t it? NM two more years of 6.3 mil in a flat cap, 15  UFA after this season with Grubauer, Saad & Landeskog being the big-ticket items. I kind of hope Makar signs before Hughes to set the market. 
 

Landeskog probably signs in Colorado again and my guess would be be a small increase on his 5.5. If he wanted a lot more I think he’d have options elsewhere.

Just basing the opinion on Crosbys' contact history; and his current contract seems to have similar traits compared to it: high value deals with the added years to keep the yearly cap hit below his market value.  Good chance, he signs a very similar deal in his next contract and it will perhaps (like Crosby) be his last contract as he retires' with the same club that drafted him.

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/sidney-crosby

 

 

Ofcoure, I am speculating but there is a good chance he signs a very similar deal cause players like the MacKinnons'/Crosbys' have additional sources of incomes outside of there salary.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[MoneypuckOverlord]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Far too much made about signings IMO.

 

Guys like MDZ, in the middle of a rebuild, and already long gone, literally don't matter.

 

Yes, Sutter and Beagle are each $1m overpaid. For key, hard minute C positions to a rebuilding club  Neither are remotely a 'problem'. And both expire soon.

 

Roussel was a borderline 2nd line producing, 2 way, elite pest, 3rd liner. Entirely worth $3m per year before his injury.

 

Baer hasn't been the same since his blind side concussion issues. Since when are injuries the GM's fault? And like you said, the league is littered with injured/underperforming contracts like these. This is not a 'Benning' issue.

 

Ferland I'll grant was risky AF. Blame that on Benning I suppose. But he'd sure look nice in our middle 6.

 

Which brings us to Eriksson, the only meaningful toilet in the bunch. Erase the one, truly bad contract of the bunch and our so called 'cap problems' are laughingly insignificant.

 

 

aannnnd with all these moves in hindsight now what does it tell you about Jim Benning?  We can't keep making these below average signings, because it's hurting the team, and again, he's hasn't worked out, and nothing he's done has worked out, and whatever he does , seems to always backfire.  This is why I cannot support jim Benning anymore.  3 million for 4th line players?  one can say they are ok with it, one can also say it's way too much.  4 years 3 million per year for 4the line player?  even if we roll back 3 years this doesn't even sound right. 

 

some of you guys using "doesn't matter doesn't matter" I can screw in life "it doesn't matter" at some point, his work in general over the past 7 years needs to be carefully and fairly addressed.  Everything needs to be in consideration to be fair.  He's missed the playoffs 5 out of 7 times.  

 

his job has 3 portions.

1 Free agency signing and contract negotiations

2 drafting

3 trades

 

his failed on portion 1 and 3 in my opinons, he's done very very poorly in terms of the 1st part.  He's overpaid many players, signed bad players and made too many of those.  

2 drafting.  HIs drafting his good, however how well can you do, if you can trade properly and sign properly?  who the hell signs a back up goalie for 4.3 million? that is just fundamentally wrong right now.

3 trades.   he's done poorly on trades also.  Some were good, most horrible and terrible.  

 

 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

 

 

aannnnd with all these moves in hindsight now what does it tell you about Jim Benning?  We can't keep making these below average signings, because it's hurting the team, and again, he's hasn't worked out, and nothing he's done has worked out, and whatever he does , seems to always backfire.  This is why I cannot support jim Benning anymore.  3 million for 4th line players?  one can say they are ok with it, one can also say it's way too much.  4 years 3 million per year for 4the line player?  even if we roll back 3 years this doesn't even sound right. 

 

some of you guys using "doesn't matter doesn't matter" I can screw in life "it doesn't matter" at some point, his work in general over the past 7 years needs to be carefully and fairly addressed.  Everything needs to be in consideration to be fair.  He's missed the playoffs 5 out of 7 times.  

 

his job has 3 portions.

1 Free agency signing and contract negotiations

2 drafting

3 trades

 

his failed on portion 1 and 3 in my opinons, he's done very very poorly in terms of the 1st part.  He's overpaid many players, signed bad players and made too many of those.  

2 drafting.  HIs drafting his good, however how well can you do, if you can trade properly and sign properly?  who the hell signs a back up goalie for 4.3 million? that is just fundamentally wrong right now.

3 trades.   he's done poorly on trades also.  Some were good, most horrible and terrible.  

 

 

The only truly 'below average' contract is Eriksson's.

 

How many of those has he signed since?

 

One bad contract does not a trend make.

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

...  and again, he's hasn't worked out, and nothing he's done has worked out, and whatever he does , seems to always backfire...

See no matter what Benning does, you will paint it in negative light, so does it really matter to talk about it then?  I would have no issues if we got a new GM, and he was capable/proven.  

 

When you say that nothing has worked out for Benning it makes me believe that you don't follow the rest of the league but just hyper-focus on the Canucks.  Have you paid any attention to the other 31 teams?  We have one of the best young teams and our undesirable contracts expire now or in one year.  Get back on the bandwagon and stop focusing so much on Benning.  We hired Chris Gear to take care of contracts about a year or two ago, precisely because Benning didn't prove to be too deft at it. 

 

[4petesake]

45 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

 

 

aannnnd with all these moves in hindsight now what does it tell you about Jim Benning?  We can't keep making these below average signings, because it's hurting the team, and again, he's hasn't worked out, and nothing he's done has worked out, and whatever he does , seems to always backfire.  This is why I cannot support jim Benning anymore.  3 million for 4th line players?  one can say they are ok with it, one can also say it's way too much.  4 years 3 million per year for 4the line player?  even if we roll back 3 years this doesn't even sound right. 

 

some of you guys using "doesn't matter doesn't matter" I can screw in life "it doesn't matter" at some point, his work in general over the past 7 years needs to be carefully and fairly addressed.  Everything needs to be in consideration to be fair.  He's missed the playoffs 5 out of 7 times.  

 

his job has 3 portions.

1 Free agency signing and contract negotiations

2 drafting

3 trades

 

his failed on portion 1 and 3 in my opinons, he's done very very poorly in terms of the 1st part.  He's overpaid many players, signed bad players and made too many of those.  

2 drafting.  HIs drafting his good, however how well can you do, if you can trade properly and sign properly?  who the hell signs a back up goalie for 4.3 million? that is just fundamentally wrong right now.

3 trades.   he's done poorly on trades also.  Some were good, most horrible and terrible.  

 

 

Spending on Goalies- Playoff Teams from Capfriendly 

 

Tor.  (3) 8.025.  Edm.  (3) 6.785.  Win.  (5) 9.825.  Mon.  (5) 17.180.  Col.   (5) 7.923.  StL.  (4) 6.645.  LV.  (3) 12.8.  Minn.  (4) 5.197.  
Car.  (4) 7.962.  Nash.  (3) 7.2.  Fla.  (5) 13.175.  TB.  (4) 12.2.  Pitts.  (5) 6.975.  NYI.   (4) 4.845.  Wash.  (2) 1.416.  Bos.  (5) 11.625

VAN.  (2) 5.350   VAN. NEXT YR.   (2) 9.3

 

The Canucks are 14th on this list and spent far less than most teams on goaltenders this year.  I don’t know what these teams will be paying next year but using these figures we would be 7th on the list of playoff teams, for one year.

 

People are really overselling this whole idea of over-spending on our goalies..

 

[Schmautzie]

10 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

Spending on Goalies- Playoff Teams from Capfriendly 

 

Tor.  (3) 8.025.  Edm.  (3) 6.785.  Win.  (5) 9.825.  Mon.  (5) 17.180.  Col.   (5) 7.923.  StL.  (4) 6.645.  LV.  (3) 12.8.  Minn.  (4) 5.197.  
Car.  (4) 7.962.  Nash.  (3) 7.2.  Fla.  (5) 13.175.  TB.  (4) 12.2.  Pitts.  (5) 6.975.  NYI.   (4) 4.845.  Wash.  (2) 1.416.  Bos.  (5) 11.625

VAN.  (2) 5.350   VAN. NEXT YR.   (2) 9.3

 

The Canucks are 14th on this list and spent far less than most teams on goaltenders this year.  I don’t know what these teams will be paying next year but using these figures we would be 7th on the list of playoff teams, for one year.

 

People are really overselling this whole idea of over-spending on our goalies..

 

Except you have to look at the opportunity cost of signing a backup goalie at $4.3 million per season. Spending that much on Holtby cost Benning the opportunity to sign Toffoli, who would have contributed more to the team than a backup goalie could.

[DeltaSwede]

5 minutes ago, Schmautzie said:

Except you have to look at the opportunity cost of signing a backup goalie at $4.3 million per season. Spending that much on Holtby cost Benning the opportunity to sign Toffoli, who would have contributed more to the team than a backup goalie could.

They didn't know if Demko could handle being a full-time #1. Insurance. 

[4petesake]

9 minutes ago, Schmautzie said:

Except you have to look at the opportunity cost of signing a backup goalie at $4.3 million per season. Spending that much on Holtby cost Benning the opportunity to sign Toffoli, who would have contributed more to the team than a backup goalie could.

True but don’t overlook the fact that Demko played 27 games in 2019/20 as a backup with a record of 13-10-2 with a 3.06 gaa and save % of 9.05. He was only decent in the regular season and stellar in 4 (count’em 4) games in the playoffs. It was no sure thing that he would play as well as he did this year as a starter. 
 

You could also look at the opportunity cost for every other team as well.

Edited June 7, 2021 by 4petesake
Add