SCSF: (1) Vegas Golden Knights vs. (4) Montreal Canadiens | Canadiens win series 4-2

[oldnews]

29 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Okay, now that we've established that the refs blow, I'd be interested in what people think about why Montreal is playing Vegas so much more effectively than we did last year.  There doesn't seem to be the same size and speed deficit that we ran into and the territorial play is way more even, and clearly favoured the Habs last night.  Montreal has better roster depth than we did, but I have a hard time putting it down to personnel alone.  Toffoli and Perry aren't the most mobile guys, but they are getting the job done.  Some of it has to be systems and better positional play.  Any thoughts?

I think 'we' were simply too far gone to the 'limping' side of it.

Top line - no center - Miller playing injured, unable to effectively take draws - altered his game to 'playmaking' under the circumstances, but a fraction of himself - as was Boeser - who played a complete game imo, but just wasn't himself/the threat we know him to be (both of these guys unable to get their shots off).

Second line - a limping Toffoli was a serious liabilty - no fault of his own, but he was entirely ineffective - and that line's production dried up entirely (both Horvat and Pearson likewise...) in their defense, however, they were drawn into heavier matchup than usual...because...

Sutter was also injured - playing wing - which put Gaudette in the middle - and extremely exposed imo vs a deep Vegas team that rolls four lines and actually tilts the ice for it's bottom six (unconventional, but intelligent when you have a veteran top six that can both produce and handle your harder minutes...)

That left one functioning line imo - the Beagle-Motte combination was outstanding in the playoffs imo - the type of line that you 'win with'...

But you're just not going to dictate against a team like Vegas - when you're in harm reduction mode with two limping top 6 lines and effectively can't 'hide' exposed players like Gaudette centering your 3rd....

 

I am/was very impressed with Green's adjustments - excellent coaching - great counterpunch approach that limited the danger areas and very nearly counterpunched themselves to a series win in spite of the above....serious kudos to that group imo - Vegas is a quality, deep team - I don't like the franchise but they're intelligently, well built.

Running at half at best down the middle though....a tall order.  Add a rookie top 4 defenseman to the mix....

Presently Vegas is without one of their top 6 centers - and they're still not easy for a net-out, extremely well built team like the Habs to deal with.

The Habs have a pair of young centers - they've  been a bit fortunate with their opponents all losing top 6 centers in their series....Tavares, Scheifele and now Stephenson - making it more difficult for those teams to isolate a matchup....  Vegas has the Karlsson line, but Montreal is able to key in on them with Danault (and Staal aint bad either...).  Suzuki is really rising to the occasion as well - but I think the context of the Canucks vs Vegas was not quite as favourable - and it's hard to match a back end that starts with Price (Demko may have accomplished that) - but then it's Weber, Petry, Chiarot, Edmundson....I did not expect Vegas to crack that group very easily at all.  Not surprised in the least that this is a dog fight - these are two well built, deep teams imo.  All that said - the Canucks took it to a last goal wins, game 7 situation, so....something a team like Colorado was unable to....

Edited June 21, 2021 by oldnews

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

41 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

My pleasure, Chuck. Yeah, that's another good point. There have been quite a few announcers during games in the past couple of seasons who've made remarks in games about it. Heck I checked The Hockey News, and they have an article or podcast regarding the fact that officiating is the biggest story of the 2021 playoffs.

I feel like officiating has been a big story all year and not just playoffs, before Burke got hired in Pittsburgh I believe it was about 2-3 weeks before that, he called out the league and the officiating, saying that they were calling way too many soft penalties, and magically after his comments were made the penalty calls started dropping off.

 

He talks about it near the end of the video this was back on January 30th.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/video/brian-burke-approach-pettersson-hughes-contracts/?show_id=13863

[RUPERTKBD]

48 minutes ago, oldnews said:

careful - you're sounding 'conspiratorial'.

 don't think there's anything "conspiratorial" about that...I just believe that most of them see no reason to change. If people stop showing up to games, or buying merchandise, maybe that will change....

[RUPERTKBD]

48 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

For me, just call a penalty, if it happens. Sure it'll slow the game down for a while, but the players will tighten up their game. They'll adjust. 

 

Especially when it comes to violations that are dangerous in nature. It would help to ensure that assclowns like Reaves and Wilson either get in line or get out of the league. I love hitting in hockey and don't want it to be taken out of the game at all. Just try not to kill each other.

Yep. In fact, they already have....remember the amount of hooking that went on in the 80s?

[RUPERTKBD]

43 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Okay, now that we've established that the refs blow, I'd be interested in what people think about why Montreal is playing Vegas so much more effectively than we did last year.  There doesn't seem to be the same size and speed deficit that we ran into and the territorial play is way more even, and clearly favoured the Habs last night.  Montreal has better roster depth than we did, but I have a hard time putting it down to personnel alone.  Toffoli and Perry aren't the most mobile guys, but they are getting the job done.  Some of it has to be systems and better positional play.  Any thoughts?

Seems like there is buy in from all players, much like the Islanders are getting...

 

As an outsider, I think the biggest roster moves were Edmunson and Chiarot. Those two guys have made the Habs tough to play against down low.

 

Perry and Toffoli have definitely helped, but I think the overall team defense is the biggest reason for the Habs' success.

[PhillipBlunt]

3 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Yep. In fact, they already have....remember the amount of hooking that went on in the 80s?

Do I? I remember Seymour being a hot bed for that after about 8 pm. 

[King Heffy]

50 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Okay, now that we've established that the refs blow, I'd be interested in what people think about why Montreal is playing Vegas so much more effectively than we did last year.  There doesn't seem to be the same size and speed deficit that we ran into and the territorial play is way more even, and clearly favoured the Habs last night.  Montreal has better roster depth than we did, but I have a hard time putting it down to personnel alone.  Toffoli and Perry aren't the most mobile guys, but they are getting the job done.  Some of it has to be systems and better positional play.  Any thoughts?

Look at the size of Montreal's top 4.  They also don't have the handicap of Nolan Baumgartner.

Edited June 21, 2021 by King Heffy

[Maniwaki Canuck]

5 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Look at the size of Montreal's top 4.  They also don't have the handicap of Nolan Baumgartner.

Definitely an emerging Baumgartner consensus!  Will be interesting to see how much of a difference Shaw makes.  I'm not expecting miracles, but definitely an improvement.

[oldnews]

15 hours ago, D-Money said:

This is revisionist history, and just plain stupid.

 

Nobody thought Vegas had a good team, until they took the ice. Then everyone found out how good the professional scouts there were. 

 

Go ahead, get on CapFriendly and try a mock draft, and pick a team that will be playoff-calibre. 

equally revisionist

- but I'll stop short of calling it "stupid".

 

Lots of people, particularly on these boards - were complaining that Vegas was going to be better than the Canucks from the get -go. 

Part of that was the inferiority complex crowd, that assumed Benning is an idiot - but they were nowhere near the only people expecting Vegas to be competitive. Some of us - perhaps only a few - I can't recall but I do recall my own viewpoint - cautioning people not to  write them off prematurely - particularly those of us that consider NHL depth as important as lottery picks - because it was clear from day one - as some of us pointed out at the time and beforehand - that Vegas was going to have the pick of virtually every #4 defenseman in the league - and an entire roster full of 'middle six' forwards at worst.   Of course, they made some crafty moves ie doubling up on the post Rowe gong-show, cash-strapped Florida Panthers, etc.   But pretending that it is 'revisionist' - or that it comes down simply to 'pro-scouting' is seriously oversimplified (their 'GMing' was as good as their pro-scouting) - and the actual conditions of that draft were far more favourable than most people had thought out.  Typical highlight reel fans that believe you're not going to win without a lottery center or a 'T1D' may have underestimated them, but in the real world NHL, where depth matters - a whole lot - that team had every opportunity to jump out of the gate with a better bottom six and better bottom end of it's blueline than most of the teams in the NHL.

Edited June 21, 2021 by oldnews

[Maniwaki Canuck]

12 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Seems like there is buy in from all players, much like the Islanders are getting...

 

As an outsider, I think the biggest roster moves were Edmunson and Chiarot. Those two guys have made the Habs tough to play against down low.

 

Perry and Toffoli have definitely helped, but I think the overall team defense is the biggest reason for the Habs' success.

Bergeron did amazing work with that roster last off-season, no doubt.  Should be GM of the year hands down.

[RUPERTKBD]

1 minute ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Bergeron did amazing work with that roster last off-season, no doubt.  Should be GM of the year hands down.

Yeah,....

 

Bergevin did some pretty nice work as well....

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Definitely an emerging Baumgartner consensus!  Will be interesting to see how much of a difference Shaw makes.  I'm not expecting miracles, but definitely an improvement.

Since Shaw is a big systems guy, I'm expecting Baumer to have very little input there, which is where he was causing most of the damage.

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Bergeron did amazing work with that roster last off-season, no doubt.  Should be GM of the year hands down.

I mean Selke winner for sure.

 

But GM of the year too? That’s a bit of a stretch.

[PhillipBlunt]

2 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

I mean Selke winner for sure.

 

But GM of the year too? That’s a bit of a stretch.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

4 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Yeah,....

 

Bergevin did some pretty nice work as well....

Got me!

[RUPERTKBD]

5 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Definitely an emerging Baumgartner consensus!  Will be interesting to see how much of a difference Shaw makes.  I'm not expecting miracles, but definitely an improvement.

Personally, I think the criticism of Baumer is a bit over stated....I don't see him as the second coming of Larry Robinson, but I also think he was given a roster heavy on "puck movers" and short on big, physical, stay at home defenders.

 

A coach can only work with the players that the GM gives him...

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Personally, I think the criticism of Baumer is a bit over stated....I don't see him as the second coming of Larry Robinson, but I also think he was given a roster heavy on "puck movers" and short on big, physical, stay at home defenders.

 

A coach can only work with the players that the GM gives him...

Hopefully they lean on Shaw when discussing what defenseman to bring in.

 

Bennings track record of defensemen he has brought in is nothing short of horrible.

[PhillipBlunt]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

Hopefully they lean on Shaw when discussing what defenseman to bring in.

 

Bennings track record of defensemen he has brought in is nothing short of horrible.

Shaw and Green will be consulted with, for sure. I can't see a scenario where they aren't. 

[DeNiro]

2 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Shaw and Green will be consulted with, for sure. I can't see a scenario where they aren't. 

Green doesn’t need to be a part of that convo.

 

Shaw is the only one with a track record of developing high end D men.

[RUPERTKBD]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

Hopefully they lean on Shaw when discussing what defenseman to bring in.

 

Bennings track record of defensemen he has brought in is nothing short of horrible.

I still have some hope for Schmidt. I think he's better than he showed this season....

 

My hope is that the team rounds out the current roster with a couple of big, physical guys. Oleksiak is probably the guy I'd like to see, but there are other possibilities as well.

 

Basically, guys who can cover, so Hughes, Schmidt and Myers can go for a skate, without leaving Demko high and dry....