Thousands dead in unmarked graves from Canadian Residential Schools

[MeanSeanBean]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

We are all part of the same group.

Until we realise this $#@# like this will always happen.

No, we're not. We should be, that is the end goal for sure. But it's naive to the point of disrespect to say that right now. There is inequality between groups of people anywhere you look. If your statement was true America wouldn't have boiled over to the point where the Black Lives Matter movement needed to take place. We wouldn't need to be having the discussion of the forces assimilation of our First Nation people.  Israel and Palestine wouldn't currently be at war.  We just aren't there yet.

[MeanSeanBean]

1 minute ago, gurn said:

By this logic, people should just shut up and listen to me.

And that is partially how we end up in this mess.

Everybody gets an opinion, everbody gets a voice and every adult gets a vote. To do any different ends up with those that have no voice being abused, thought that would be obvious, given how the treatment of voiceless first nations is the topic of discussion.

People should listen to you if it's something that effects you and has no negative effect on other people, yes. But if your opinion is on something that doesn't effect you whatsoever, and does negativity effect someone else, then no, you don't. Everyone gets a voice, as long as that voice isn't used to suppress other people. 

 

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. The entire basis of this conversation is the term native not being used anymore. Are you saying that if someone who is not First Nations thinks the term native is fine they should be able to continue to use it, even if it's not what the First Nation population wants to be referred to as anymore. Because that's the entire reason who we are engaged in a conversation right now.

 

 

 

[bishopshodan]

1 minute ago, gurn said:

By this logic, people should just shut up and listen to me.

And that is partially how we end up in this mess.

Everybody gets an opinion, everbody gets a voice and every adult gets a vote. To do any different ends up with those that have no voice being abused, thought that would be obvious, given how the treatment of voiceless first nations is the topic of discussion.

I  came across the platinum rule a couple years ago when doing an HR seminar with my staff.

 

I thought it was ridiculous as I have always loved the golden rule. 

 

Then I started to think of some things..

An example I think of is.... I don't mind if you were your shoes in my house, I think everyone should allow shoes in doors. However, if you don't want me to to wear shoes in your house I will respect that.

 

Don't really know why I am quoting you for this point but I do really agree everyone should be allowed to voice their opinion. 

If we want true communication and to get along we will have to respect that certain groups will desire to be treated in a way that perhaps some think is silly.

 

I think it is weird that everyone can't use the N-word. I am a huge hiphop fan and 'sing' that word a lot. 

But, most would agree that it is off putting for me to throw it into my everyday language even as a term of endearment for a friend. 

It's that platinum rule. I really don't mind someone calling me a cracker but I don't have the history and repression that comes with the origins of the N-word ( see we don't even type it out, probably would be filtered).  

[CBH1926]

31 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

Not in all cases. During the Black Lives Matter movement I learned some very important things. Sometimes you don't get to have an opinion on something if it doesn't negatively affect you and does effect others. Sometimes the best, and only thing you can do is sit back, listen, and respect others. That is the only way we are going to slowly start making progress.

 

I was having a conversation with my best friend's brother, and the subject of the Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben phasing out the rascial stereotypes came up. He was upset upset because he thought it was too far and a stupid thing to be focused on because it wasn't that bad. At the time I didn't have enough information on the subject to have any sort of opinion.

 

After the conversation I did my research and I took that idea to my wife, a vocal supporter of the Black Lives Matter movement. She simply explained to me that as a white man he had zero say in what members of the Black community find offensive. If those companies are rebranding because people did find those stereotypes offensive, then you duty to respect that's how a group of people feel. It doesn't effect you, but it may effect them. If you put your back up against it and express yourself against the change, when it has nothing to do with you, then you are on the wrong side of the fence and being counter productive to the equality the world is attempting to achieve.

 

This is the same situation. This entire conversation started because we were discussing the phasing out of using the term native to describe our Indigenous population. Even if it was something that was widely used before, if the shift starts that it's no longer the most politically correct term to use, it's a communities job to come together and respect that. Now I'm only going off my family and friends, I don't know if it's wide spread across BC, or even Canada. But I know in my community that's just not the correct terminology. 

 

Based on your post since you and your girlfriend are not even American and your skin tone doesn’t match those involved in founding of the BLM. You should just have a seat and work on problems in your own country.

I think that’s fair don’t you?

 

 

 

[Gurn]

28 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

The entire basis of this conversation is the term native not being used anymore. Are you saying that if someone who is not First Nations thinks the term native is fine they should be able to continue to use it, even if it's not what the First Nation population wants to be referred to as anymore. Because that's the entire reason who we are engaged in a conversation right now.

Is it illegal to say the word "native"?

Do you wish it was illegal to use the word "native"?

 

It is not illegal to offend people. Annoying as heck, but not illegal.

 

I'm much more concerned as to how words are used, rather than the word itself.

" There are no bad words

Just words used badly"       George Carlin.

 

If the First Nations tribal leaders have actually said "We find the word offensive" I can adapt to not using that word, doesn't really bother me one way or the other. However I will never stand for someone/something/somegovernment telling me to just shut up as my opinion is invalid.

As I said, rendering people voiceless is  partially how we got in this mess

[RUPERTKBD]

Personally, I see the term "native" much the same as "negro", or "colored".....None are overtly racist, but using them would likely result in some folks looking at you strangely.....

 

IMO, It's a matter of common courtesy...use the terms that First Nations peoples prefer to be called. First Nations, Aboriginal, Indigenous....all are acceptable. "Native" is outdated and "Indian" is bordering on racist, to say nothing about being completely inaccurate.

 

In regards to the burning of churches and toppling/vandalism of statues, again, I see this much as I did the BLM protests....I wish it hadn't resulted in damage to public and private property, however, I can completely understand the level of frustration and anger that leads to such actions.

Edited July 4, 2021 by RUPERTKBD

[MeanSeanBean]

1 hour ago, CBH1926 said:

Based on your post since you and your girlfriend are not even American and your skin tone doesn’t match those involved in founding of the BLM. You should just have a seat and work on problems in your own country.

I think that’s fair don’t you?

 

 

 

My partner is Black and my Dad's American, I'm a duel citizen. I'm currently drawing awareness to our current racial injustice.  You somehow managed to insert yourself into a conversation that has nothing to do with you, make numerous assumptions that were all incorrect (which is actually pretty impressive), then make a argument that is invalid due to the fact I currently am trying to point on injustice within our own community.

 

 

Do you see the irony in this situation that you litterally just did the exact thing that is the problem. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by shayster007

[MeanSeanBean]

31 minutes ago, gurn said:

Is it illegal to say the word "native"?

Do you wish it was illegal to use the word "native"?

 

It is not illegal to offend people. Annoying as heck, but not illegal.

 

I'm much more concerned as to how words are used, rather than the word itself.

" There are no bad words

Just words used badly"       George Carlin.

 

If the First Nations tribal leaders have actually said "We find the word offensive" I can adapt to not using that word, doesn't really bother me one way or the other. However I will never stand for someone/something/somegovernment telling me to just shut up as my opinion is invalid.

As I said, rendering people voiceless is  partially how we got in this mess

It shouldn't have to be illegal. We should be able to use basic human decency to be able to govern ourselves as a community. I reckon that's to much to ask from some people.

[Gurn]

Fine, but what and who made you the arbiter of what is decent?

It would seem a matter of opinion, would it not?

 

[MeanSeanBean]

8 minutes ago, gurn said:

Fine, but what and who made you the arbiter of what is decent?

It would seem a matter of opinion, would it not?

 

No one. Groups of people over time decide amongst themselves decide what is decent and what is not. It's out job as a society to respect those decisions. I'm doing my part in that social contract, and willing to say something when people aren't.

Edited July 4, 2021 by shayster007

[Gurn]

8 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

No one. Groups of people decide amongst themselves decide what is decent and what is not. It's out job as a society to respect those decisions. I'm doing my part in that social contract, and willing to say something when people aren't.

Excellent, you are stating your opnion, just as Kryten did, and as I'm doing.

However you started out telling people they should shut up.

So both he, and I, are willing to say something about that.

[Curmudgeon]

1 minute ago, shayster007 said:

No one. Groups of people decide amongst themselves decide what is decent and what is not. It's out job as a society to respect those decisions. I'm doing my part in that social contract, and willing to say something when people aren't.

Ah yes, group think. At some distant point in time, "groups of people" decided many things, such as that Jews were evil, blacks were lazy unless motivated by whips, aboriginal people were heathen savages who needed a heaping helping of Jesus and discipline, Irish were dirty and thieving, Indians were all ignorant Hindus, postwar refugees were nothing but helpless DP's (displaced persons) and so on. I disagree with you; it is NOT our job as a society "to respect those decisions". It is our job to respect whatever identity a person or group of persons wishes to be known a, because injustice at the hands of the majority is still injustice.

[MeanSeanBean]

Just now, gurn said:

Excellent, you are stating your opnion, just as Kryten did, and as I'm doing.

However you started out telling people they should shut up.

So both he, and I, are willing to say something about that.

Context. I told people the should shut up and listen when expressing opinions that negatively effect some people and have zero effect on themselves. I fully back that opinion, and we are fundamentally different types of people if you don't. Furthermore, if we fundamentally disagree on something that firmly, we have nothing left to talk about. Neither of our opinions will change on the subject, and no productive conversation will come from it. Have a good day.

[MeanSeanBean]

4 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Ah yes, group think. At some distant point in time, "groups of people" decided many things, such as that Jews were evil, blacks were lazy unless motivated by whips, aboriginal people were heathen savages who needed a heaping helping of Jesus and discipline, Irish were dirty and thieving, Indians were all ignorant Hindus, postwar refugees were nothing but helpless DP's (displaced persons) and so on. I disagree with you; it is NOT our job as a society "to respect those decisions". It is our job to respect whatever identity a person or group of persons wishes to be known a, because injustice at the hands of the majority is still injustice.

How can you say you disagree with me when your last sentence is litterally what I'm saying? You said you disagree, then immediately reiterated my entire point.

Edited July 4, 2021 by shayster007

[bishopshodan]

I find that some people that seem to be debating in here are actually saying similar things.

 

Humans...

[Warhippy]

Over 50 first nations communities in Ontario have boil water advisories.  3 have outright do not consume and are living off of emergency potable water eliveries.

 

But you want to argue about how first nations individuals prefer to be addressed.  I like Doug or Douglas, Native, First nations.  I don't much like indian and will not tolerate chief or chug.

 

But if this is what we're seriously arguing about, the proper way to address our people; than ya...not a gd thing is going to change.

 

There's far more important things to worry about right now than terminology.  Our feelings won't get hurt with how we're addressed more than yours will; and right now it seems a lot of people are so worried about what is or is not PC that they're losing track of the actual issues here.  

 

Stay on topic and let us worry about how we'd like to be addressed.  We have far more pressing issues that need to be addressed.  I am sure the Neskanataga people would agree with me.  So would the curve lake band, Attawapiskat STILL, Wiikwemkoong, White Sand and about a dozen others in Ontario alone.  Without even mentioning the issues in Alberta or BC

 

 

[Warhippy]

14 hours ago, MikeBossy said:

The only way I see "Truth and Reconciliation" in any way is to spend the money to find any remaining graves at these former residential schools and then establish a memorial with the names of all the children in those graves so we can remember what was allowed to happen and ensure it never happens again!!!

We cant.

 

We can only go by what the records say.  The records are incomplete.  By reports the numbers of dead native children in these schools since the early 1800s numbers in the tens of thousands.  Records only existed in large bands that were in the way of development in a show of looking like they cared.  Hundreds of bands acros the nation saw children stolen at will from their homes without records even being taken.  Look at the lists.  John Peters.  John Smith.  Mary Peters.....those names echo repeatedly because there were no records and young children were given convenient names of caucasian origin.

 

How do you address that or write that down?

 

A memorial won't help, we already have them in the actual existing residential schools themselves.  What we need is a solution to the ongoing issues our people face.  Water, education, abolishing the indian act.

 

Did you know, if I was actually recognized by my band, I could not even legally own my own home on band land and could be evicted at any time by the government for any reason they saw fit?

 

If we want truth, start understanding that the system is still inherently racist to our first nations people.  If we want reconciliation, level the gd playing field and allow us the freedoms stripped from us over 100 years ago.

[Warhippy]

OK story time.

 

My name is Douglas Drouin.  I was born of one Andre Drouin who was a son of the Broken Head Ojibwe tribe from Scanterbury Manitoba.  My ancestral band was one that was forcibly moved 3 times between the 1800s through ww1 and ww2.  My band saw children experimented on during the fortified food experiments of the 30s through 60s.  My band saw one of the largest outflows of children in Manitoba to residential schools.

 

My father by all accounts was stolen from his band when he was 4 years old.  From the records we can gather and various therapy sessions released to us after his passing he was sent to the Birtle Residential school.  Birtle had a horrific history and existed in some fashion for over 100 years.  first as an outpost camp and education centre then later on as a brick and mortar building school.  

 

At age 4 by band accounts.  A large force of armed RCMP came in to our area and started collecting children in the early 50s.  Children were loaded in to the back of covered trucks in the middle of winter with no clothing, food or items of affection.  My father spent 7 years in Birtle being abused physically and sexually.  He saw and experienced rapes, beatings and more.  He was sent home at around 11 years of age broken and traumatized only to then be taken in the scoop program and rehomed in Quebec to a franco-catholic family and renamed.  

 

Many of the children from the OJibwe bands of Manitoba found themselves experienced in the scoop programs.  Which saw first nations kids literally sold all over the world as far as new zealand but predominantly within the church archives to catholic families, many times as social oddities and others as fosters due to a broken system that believed this would be better for them to continue their "educations"

 

My father grew up broken, tormented and with severe ptsd.  He was addicted to drugs and alchohol and would wake up in the night screaming.  He would get black out drunk and start crying in the corner.  I grew up dirt poor a half breed that was deemed to red for the town and to white for the tribe.  Due to a fire at the place of his birth, his actual birth records do not exist; as he was a scoop survivor the church was the only one to record his records and they are not accepted as verifiable because they kept such shoddy records to begin with.

 

I am an unrecognized metis indian under the act today and as such do not recieve a dollar or dime from the government.  I saw first hand what the residential school system did to my father and grew up with children of survivors.  I say the word survivor because that is what these people were.  Watching people make comparisons to hitler saying this was nothing like that, or claim this was not a genocide are deluded.  Since the early 1800s our first nations people were literally deemed burdens and expendable.  Animals in the way of development.  To be experimented on.  From forced relocation to literal sales to families across the world firs tnations life and culture in canada was literally exterminated in some areas.

 

I have many stories about growing up a half breed in my situation, I have first hand experiences with racism on both ends.  I have been laughed at by the government and by band officials.

 

People think that death in residential schools was the worst of it but have no idea what the real evils were that came from the treatment of first nations people in Canada.

 

easily the worst of is the gaslighting of an ENTIRE people who suffered generations of PTSD being abused at the hands of the government and church.  Who were then turned loose on the world with untold mental trauma; turning the drugs and alchohol.  Only to be mocked by the population because the government literally told them we were savages that couldn't cope with life without their help which was why were were violent drunks and alchoholics.  That we lived in poverty because we chose that, without ever telling them that in band systems were were literally forced to subsist within reservation boundaries that were miles away from our true ancestral lands.

 

To say that our people were mistreated is wrong.  But not in the sense it is misunderstood or understated; no, in the sense that mistreated would have been a step up.

 

What happened to us was no more or less than an attempted extermination of a people through long term slow acting genocide of a culture, a way of life and of freedoms.

[MeanSeanBean]

10 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

OK story time.

 

My name is Douglas Drouin.  I was born of one Andre Drouin who was a son of the Broken Head Ojibwe tribe from Scanterbury Manitoba.  My ancestral band was one that was forcibly moved 3 times between the 1800s through ww1 and ww2.  My band saw children experimented on during the fortified food experiments of the 30s through 60s.  My band saw one of the largest outflows of children in Manitoba to residential schools.

 

My father by all accounts was stolen from his band when he was 4 years old.  From the records we can gather and various therapy sessions released to us after his passing he was sent to the Birtle Residential school.  Birtle had a horrific history and existed in some fashion for over 100 years.  first as an outpost camp and education centre then later on as a brick and mortar building school.  

 

At age 4 by band accounts.  A large force of armed RCMP came in to our area and started collecting children in the early 50s.  Children were loaded in to the back of covered trucks in the middle of winter with no clothing, food or items of affection.  My father spent 7 years in Birtle being abused physically and sexually.  He saw and experienced rapes, beatings and more.  He was sent home at around 11 years of age broken and traumatized only to then be taken in the scoop program and rehomed in Quebec to a franco-catholic family and renamed.  

 

Many of the children from the OJibwe bands of Manitoba found themselves experienced in the scoop programs.  Which saw first nations kids literally sold all over the world as far as new zealand but predominantly within the church archives to catholic families, many times as social oddities and others as fosters due to a broken system that believed this would be better for them to continue their "educations"

 

My father grew up broken, tormented and with severe ptsd.  He was addicted to drugs and alchohol and would wake up in the night screaming.  He would get black out drunk and start crying in the corner.  I grew up dirt poor a half breed that was deemed to red for the town and to white for the tribe.  Due to a fire at the place of his birth, his actual birth records do not exist; as he was a scoop survivor the church was the only one to record his records and they are not accepted as verifiable because they kept such shoddy records to begin with.

 

I am an unrecognized metis indian under the act today and as such do not recieve a dollar or dime from the government.  I saw first hand what the residential school system did to my father and grew up with children of survivors.  I say the word survivor because that is what these people were.  Watching people make comparisons to hitler saying this was nothing like that, or claim this was not a genocide are deluded.  Since the early 1800s our first nations people were literally deemed burdens and expendable.  Animals in the way of development.  To be experimented on.  From forced relocation to literal sales to families across the world firs tnations life and culture in canada was literally exterminated in some areas.

 

I have many stories about growing up a half breed in my situation, I have first hand experiences with racism on both ends.  I have been laughed at by the government and by band officials.

 

People think that death in residential schools was the worst of it but have no idea what the real evils were that came from the treatment of first nations people in Canada.

 

easily the worst of is the gaslighting of an ENTIRE people who suffered generations of PTSD being abused at the hands of the government and church.  Who were then turned loose on the world with untold mental trauma; turning the drugs and alchohol.  Only to be mocked by the population because the government literally told them we were savages that couldn't cope with life without their help which was why were were violent drunks and alchoholics.  That we lived in poverty because we chose that, without ever telling them that in band systems were were literally forced to subsist within reservation boundaries that were miles away from our true ancestral lands.

 

To say that our people were mistreated is wrong.  But not in the sense it is misunderstood or understated; no, in the sense that mistreated would have been a step up.

 

What happened to us was no more or less than an attempted extermination of a people through long term slow acting genocide of a culture, a way of life and of freedoms.

Thank you for sharing that. It's not your duty or obligation at all, but it is much appreciated all the same.

 

This probably a rediculous question due to the neglect shown by the Canadian government time and time again, but why isn't your Father being a survivor of the sixties scoop enough proof for him to be recognized? If he was placed in a program, that's entire purpose was to rehome First Nation kids into foster homes, wouldn't that be enough.  Again, this seems like a pedantic question due to how frequently the Government bumbles this types of affairs, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.

[nuckin_futz]

2 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

Thank you for sharing that. It's not your duty or obligation at all, but it is much appreciated all the same.

 

This probably a rediculous question due to the neglect shown by the Canadian government time and time again, but why isn't your Father being a survivor of the sixties scoop enough proof for him to be recognized? If he was placed in a program, that's entire purpose was to rehome First Nation kids into foster homes, wouldn't that be enough.  Again, this seems like a pedantic question due to how frequently the Government bumbles this types of affairs, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.

Hippy said in the 2nd paragraph that his father is now deceased.

 

RIP Mr Drouin.