Bad_BOI_pete Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 has the arizona fans realized that LE jay beagle and antoine rousell are not NHL players anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said: has the arizona fans realized that LE jay beagle and antoine rousell are not NHL players anymore? They might think they are &^@#in superstars next to most of their roster lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 15 hours ago, BPA said: Lottery wasn't done when the trade happened. But Eklund falling to #9 was highly unlikely. He was rated as a top 3 pick. For him to drop that far, there had to be a few surprises. MacTavish was one. Yes the lottery occurred on June 2nd, 2021. The trade happened on July 23, well after the lottery. The Canucks already knew their pick was #9 overall. And I'm pretty sure they would have assessed the likely available players and decided that it was worth trading to get Garland and OEL and to jettison some underperforming contracts rather than take the gamble on whoever is available at #9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad_BOI_pete Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 18 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: They might think they are &^@#in superstars next to most of their roster lol i don't know beagle was on the ice for 5 goals and he was pylon on all of them. 4 goals against 1 goal for. look at this goal, yikes https://www.nhl.com/video/kyrous-terrific-second-goal/t-326159640/c-9199205 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 It's funny how many people believed (and still believe) that OEL was somehow underperforming in the last few years in Arizona. There is zero real evidence of this and I have posted several times to try and dispel the myth that the media created around OEL. He has been consistently good for the last 7 seasons. I fully expected him to perform as well as he has so far, and people need to realise its not because he's got some "new lease on life", it's that you have believed what the media wanted you to think about him. There was very little risk this year with OEL. The biggest risk with OEL will be the next 5 years (he's 30 now) and how badly his play drops off with age. When the decline starts (and it hasn't started yet) let's hope it is a very slow decline! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted October 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 19, 2021 2 hours ago, BigTramFan said: It's funny how many people believed (and still believe) that OEL was somehow underperforming in the last few years in Arizona. There is zero real evidence of this and I have posted several times to try and dispel the myth that the media created around OEL. You should take it up with the man himself, since OEL has admitted that he “struggled the last four years.” Similarly, Daniel Sedin has said that OEL needs to be better than he has the last few years. It’s not just a myth created by media. There are countless other hockey people who’ve said the same things. And very few, if any, people around the NHL who’d claim that OEL hasn’t underperformed, relative the player he was at his peak performance levels, and compared the value expected from a player on his contract. And certainly there’s been ample evidence, both in the advanced stats, and the eye test, that show a decline in his play in recent years. That said, any decline was from a peak level where OEL was probably the best Dman in the entire NHL, at least in 2015-16, and arguably the most valuable player, period, in the league that year. So even a fraction of his peak performance is still very high level. And there were certainly numerous factors that could explain some of his decline in performance. He’s looked very good to start this season. Everything is going about as well as could be expected, and hopefully that continues. The talent and ability that made OEL one of the best of the best, just a few years back, is not something that just disappears completely. And he never stopped being an effective NHLer. He just wasn’t as good as he once was. And he’ll probably never get back to his absolute peak levels. Can he be a top Dman for a few more years? Absolutely. We’ll see how much of a resurgence he enjoys in this new situation and how long he can continue to provide really good value on the ice. So far, he’s looking great. But there’s no way a team, even one as poorly run as the Coyotes, pays another team to take a player like OEL, unless there’s been a clear indication of decline. And make no mistake: the Canucks were paid to take this contract, because the consensus view in the league was that OEL was no longer worth the money he had remaining on his contract. Right now, that looks to have been a bad decision for Arizona, but it remains to be seen how things play out. But certainly if OEL had not shown any signs of decline, the Coyotes probably would not have traded him, and certainly they wouldn’t have given him away for free, and actually paid a sweetener, and salary retention, to make the trade happen. We’ve seen what the market is for top defencemen, both in asset value in trades, and contract value in extensions. If OEL was still valued like 2015-16 OEL, and had not underperformed over the past few years, he’d have been considered a bargain on his contract, and his trade value would have been sky high. That clearly wasn’t the case. OEL was “negative value” when the trade was made. That’s obvious when you look at the pieces exchanged. No media myth can affect the market to that degree. It was hockey people who made those judgments, largely based on what they were seeing on the ice (although many “hockey men” also at least consider what the “calculator boys” tell them about the analytics, before ultimately ignoring them ). Hopefully, the Canucks will be huge winners in all this, and the early signs definitely points to this. They bought pretty low on what was, at the time, a hugely diminished value asset. But they also gambled on player who possibly just needed a change of scenery to rebound and reestablish himself as one of the better defencemen in the NHL. So far, it’s looking like a very good bet. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BigTramFan Posted October 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 19, 2021 15 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said: You should take it up with the man himself, since OEL has admitted that he “struggled the last four years.” Similarly, Daniel Sedin has said that OEL needs to be better than he has the last few years. It’s not just a myth created by media. There are countless other hockey people who’ve said the same things. And very few, if any, people around the NHL who’d claim that OEL hasn’t underperformed, relative the player he was at his peak performance levels, and compared the value expected from a player on his contract. And certainly there’s been ample evidence, both in the advanced stats, and the eye test, that show a decline in his play in recent years. That said, any decline was from a peak level where OEL was probably the best Dman in the entire NHL, at least in 2015-16, and arguably the most valuable player, period, in the league that year. So even a fraction of his peak performance is still very high level. And there were certainly numerous factors that could explain some of his decline in performance. He’s looked very good to start this season. Everything is going about as well as could be expected, and hopefully that continues. The talent and ability that made OEL one of the best of the best, just a few years back, is not something that just disappears completely. And he never stopped being an effective NHLer. He just wasn’t as good as he once was. And he’ll probably never get back to his absolute peak levels. Can he be a top Dman for a few more years? Absolutely. We’ll see how much of a resurgence he enjoys in this new situation and how long he can continue to provide really good value on the ice. So far, he’s looking great. But there’s no way a team, even one as poorly run as the Coyotes, pays another team to take a player like OEL, unless there’s been a clear indication of decline. And make no mistake: the Canucks were paid to take this contract, because the consensus view in the league was that OEL was no longer worth the money he had remaining on his contract. Right now, that looks to have been a bad decision for Arizona, but it remains to be seen how things play out. But certainly if OEL had not shown any signs of decline, the Coyotes probably would not have traded him, and certainly they wouldn’t have given him away for free, and actually paid a sweetener, and salary retention, to make the trade happen. We’ve seen what the market is for top defencemen, both in asset value in trades, and contract value in extensions. If OEL was still valued like 2015-16 OEL, and had not underperformed over the past few years, he’d have been considered a bargain on his contract, and his trade value would have been sky high. That clearly wasn’t the case. OEL was “negative value” when the trade was made. That’s obvious when you look at the pieces exchanged. No media myth can affect the market to that degree. It was hockey people who made those judgments, largely based on what they were seeing on the ice (although many “hockey men” also at least consider what the “calculator boys” tell them about the analytics, before ultimately ignoring them ). Hopefully, the Canucks will be huge winners in all this, and the early signs definitely points to this. They bought pretty low on what was, at the time, a hugely diminished value asset. But they also gambled on player who possibly just needed a change of scenery to rebound and reestablish himself as one of the better defencemen in the NHL. So far, it’s looking like a very good bet. A player saying he "struggled" the last few years can mean a lot of things. I absolutely agree that OEL has had challenges in Arizona, but the outcomes of his performance have not declined. Daniel Sedin's comments were in response to a long and torturous set up by the media, e.g. "Daniel, welcome to the show, we have talked in length over the last few weeks about how badly OEL has played the last few years, do you think OEL can bounce back from the last few seasons he has had?" Daniel's response: "OEL takes full responsibility for his play in the last couple of years and will be better in Vancouver"...big deal - no proof there. Just the same stuff the Sedin's always said after they'd lost a game. "We take responsibility and we will be better". I find it funny that OEL's "advanced" stats in 2020-21 were quoted as 'poor' (like his expected-goals-for and his high danger scoring chances) but his actual and real points scored were as consistent as they have ever been. To me this says, yes the guy has been struggling but he is managing to deliver results regardless of the struggle. And on the defensive end, despite playing with a borderline NHL partner last season, OEL's defense stats 5v5 were similar to 2015/16 and his shorthanded defense was twice a good as it was in 2015/16. How can that be when he was the best player in the world in 2015/16? None of this is ever mentioned by the media. They say his ice time was reduced last few years! OMG, oh hang on, he was averaging 25 mins/game until Chychrun developed into a decent Dman, then they have both been averaging more like 21-23 mins/game the last couple of years and sharing the load. Again, twisting the stats to tell a story you want the reader to believe. 2 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 11 hours ago, King Heffy said: What's you definition of modern, given that you think all NHL coaches are Neanderthals? I spoke of Utica and NHL coaches as Babcock, not NHL as a whole. As before when you or another asked the same question. Psyhology is the key and treat players accordingly to what is their key. The worst bit is to treat them as a unit and ”bully” the players that doesn’t align with the unit. The players including fringe and drafts is the top dog in NHL, not the coaches. It’s the players that makes money to the same owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 OEL in #23 is like watching the Edler we always wanted to have. He looks like Lemieux in on-ice demeanour. Tall, smooth skater, moves with grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 Just now, Me_ said: OEL in #23 is like watching the Edler we always wanted to have. He looks like Lemieux in on-ice demeanour. Tall, smooth skater, moves with grace. He reminds me of 27yr old eddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 5 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said: You should take it up with the man himself, since OEL has admitted that he “struggled the last four years.” Similarly, Daniel Sedin has said that OEL needs to be better than he has the last few years. It’s not just a myth created by media. There are countless other hockey people who’ve said the same things. And very few, if any, people around the NHL who’d claim that OEL hasn’t underperformed, relative the player he was at his peak performance levels, and compared the value expected from a player on his contract. And certainly there’s been ample evidence, both in the advanced stats, and the eye test, that show a decline in his play in recent years. That said, any decline was from a peak level where OEL was probably the best Dman in the entire NHL, at least in 2015-16, and arguably the most valuable player, period, in the league that year. So even a fraction of his peak performance is still very high level. And there were certainly numerous factors that could explain some of his decline in performance. He’s looked very good to start this season. Everything is going about as well as could be expected, and hopefully that continues. The talent and ability that made OEL one of the best of the best, just a few years back, is not something that just disappears completely. And he never stopped being an effective NHLer. He just wasn’t as good as he once was. And he’ll probably never get back to his absolute peak levels. Can he be a top Dman for a few more years? Absolutely. We’ll see how much of a resurgence he enjoys in this new situation and how long he can continue to provide really good value on the ice. So far, he’s looking great. But there’s no way a team, even one as poorly run as the Coyotes, pays another team to take a player like OEL, unless there’s been a clear indication of decline. And make no mistake: the Canucks were paid to take this contract, because the consensus view in the league was that OEL was no longer worth the money he had remaining on his contract. Right now, that looks to have been a bad decision for Arizona, but it remains to be seen how things play out. But certainly if OEL had not shown any signs of decline, the Coyotes probably would not have traded him, and certainly they wouldn’t have given him away for free, and actually paid a sweetener, and salary retention, to make the trade happen. We’ve seen what the market is for top defencemen, both in asset value in trades, and contract value in extensions. If OEL was still valued like 2015-16 OEL, and had not underperformed over the past few years, he’d have been considered a bargain on his contract, and his trade value would have been sky high. That clearly wasn’t the case. OEL was “negative value” when the trade was made. That’s obvious when you look at the pieces exchanged. No media myth can affect the market to that degree. It was hockey people who made those judgments, largely based on what they were seeing on the ice (although many “hockey men” also at least consider what the “calculator boys” tell them about the analytics, before ultimately ignoring them ). Hopefully, the Canucks will be huge winners in all this, and the early signs definitely points to this. They bought pretty low on what was, at the time, a hugely diminished value asset. But they also gambled on player who possibly just needed a change of scenery to rebound and reestablish himself as one of the better defencemen in the NHL. So far, it’s looking like a very good bet. IMO ARZ selling him 'at a loss' was as much about his overall dollars owed (with little relation to his performance for them) and him owning a NMC and limiting their options to two teams, as his performance. Their ownership simply wanted that big/long of a contract off the books. I think there was also some disconnect with coaching, the direction of the club, and likely disappointment with the team you JUST signed a long term extension for looking to 'dump' you. So you could say his heart wasn't 100% in it for sure. But as @BigTramFan pointed out, despite all those things, he still put up 'top D' numbers (if not his absolute peak). I think that's actually a good sign that he was able to still remain so competitive despite those clear issues and his heart not being 100% for the team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 12 hours ago, JayDangles said: Case and point.. OEL hasn't put one in our own net like LE did! That guy was out to screw us from the start! I remember people here saying Benning came from Boston to Vancouver to sabotage the Canucks. Maybe he hired LE to be his "you in the inside" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 10 hours ago, Petey_BOI said: i don't know beagle was on the ice for 5 goals and he was pylon on all of them. 4 goals against 1 goal for. look at this goal, yikes https://www.nhl.com/video/kyrous-terrific-second-goal/t-326159640/c-9199205 That. Was. Hilarious! Honestly, he should be benched and scratched after that goal. Wowza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, BigTramFan said: It's funny how many people believed (and still believe) that OEL was somehow underperforming in the last few years in Arizona. There is zero real evidence of this and I have posted several times to try and dispel the myth that the media created around OEL. He has been consistently good for the last 7 seasons. I fully expected him to perform as well as he has so far, and people need to realise its not because he's got some "new lease on life", it's that you have believed what the media wanted you to think about him. There was very little risk this year with OEL. The biggest risk with OEL will be the next 5 years (he's 30 now) and how badly his play drops off with age. When the decline starts (and it hasn't started yet) let's hope it is a very slow decline! I am willing to bet good money the only time you saw OEL play the last 7 years were games against the Canucks. He had a serious decline in his defensive effectiveness. It has been pretty dissected in the media and despite your claims there is a lot of evidence of it that has been put out there. They have no reason to just make stuff up about him. Whether he was mentally drained by the Arizona experience or whatever other reasons, he was far less effective defensively even as his role became what should have been easier playing less against top players. He has looked good so far in Van on both sides of the puck. Let’s hope that continues. But why rewrite history? I watched him play a lot the last few years and he had clearly declined sharply from about 4 years ago. It’s not a slight on him it’s just fact. If the trade is a clear win this year that’s all Benning really needs to save his job for a few more years. What it looks like in 5 years won’t really matter much to him as he will very likely already be gone if this core doesn’t start making it far in the playoffs. That’s why he took the gamble on long term money vs short term money. And that’s ok. It will eventually very likely be wasted cap at least to some degree at some point like most big money contracts for players in their 30’s. This year is really all that matters to Benning right now. Edited October 19, 2021 by wallstreetamigo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaninMex Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 12 minutes ago, Jester13 said: That. Was. Hilarious! Honestly, he should be benched and scratched after that goal. Wowza. Why get hurt for a team that does not want to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 10 hours ago, Petey_BOI said: i don't know beagle was on the ice for 5 goals and he was pylon on all of them. 4 goals against 1 goal for. look at this goal, yikes https://www.nhl.com/video/kyrous-terrific-second-goal/t-326159640/c-9199205 That backcheck though lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 25 minutes ago, FaninMex said: Why get hurt for a team that does not want to win. I didn't realize it hurts to try o_O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 3 hours ago, FaninMex said: Why get hurt for a team that does not want to win. That's actually a good point but then again he's also probably thinking of signing one more contract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 18 minutes ago, iinatcc said: That's actually a good point but then again he's also probably thinking of signing one more contract Beagle probably retires at the end of this season. Won a Cup, and isn't going to get a big payday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, FaninMex said: Why get hurt for a team that does not want to win. I mean, he's won a cup in Washington. He could just want to play the game for as long as possible or want to play out his contract out of good will (he's being paid well for his job afterall). Remember, he's played for us for years now... and it's not like we were that good. lol Edited October 19, 2021 by The Lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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