iinatcc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 2 hours ago, HKSR said: The fact of the matter is that EVERY GM has faults and screws up. A lot of it comes down to timing and luck. Honestly, what if covid didn't happen and the cap went up the $6 or $7M it was supposed to when GMJB was trying to re-sign Tanev and Toffoli? Heck, GMJB traded for Toffoli literally a few weeks before the world shut down. I feel bad for him because he clearly had a plan in place, knowing full well that the cap had historically moved up significantly year after year. Unfortunately for him (and for us), covid is a thing, and it happened at an inopportune time. Benning may had a plan but whatever it was his moves didn't leave him any wiggle room or flexibility if his plan didn't work out. Granted no one could have predicated the Pandemic but other teams either benefited or weren't impacted as much as the Canucks. Teams capitalized on the Pandemic by signing players like Duclair or Toffoli to team friendly deals. It's just not just hindsight either the Sutter, Roussel, and Beagle signings had some analysts worried how this hurts the teams Flexibility and 2020 they were right. Toffoli couldn't get resigned and Tanev walked without a suitable replacement. It would be fine if Benning learned from his mistakes but he just repeated it again. Dickinson extension, Pearson overpayment, Poolman's contract, and OEL's contract. Even the new management said they need to shed cap to be flexible again. And this is Benning's flaw he keeps putting himself in a vicous cycle of overpaying players, losing key players, and trying to replace them by overpaying again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, iinatcc said: Benning may had a plan but whatever it was his moves didn't leave him any wiggle room or flexibility if his plan didn't work out. Granted no one could have predicated the Pandemic but other teams either benefited or weren't impacted as much as the Canucks. Teams capitalized on the Pandemic by signing players like Duclair or Toffoli to team friendly deals. It's just not just hindsight either the Sutter, Roussel, and Beagle signings had some analysts worried how this hurts the teams Flexibility and 2020 they were right. Toffoli couldn't get resigned and Tanev walked without a suitable replacement. It would be fine if Benning learned from his mistakes but he just repeated it again. Dickinson extension, Pearson overpayment, Poolman's contract, and OEL's contract. Even the new management said they need to shed cap to be flexible again. And this is Benning's flaw he keeps putting himself in a vicous cycle of overpaying players, losing key players, and trying to replace them by overpaying again. Maybe, but the teams that capitalized on the pandemic were walking into it with cap space already available. It's not like they found cap space after learning that the cap was not gonna go up for several years in a row. Even to this day, those teams that are up against the cap are having an incredibly difficult time shedding cap. In fairness as well, Dickinson didn't look like he was gonna be as useless as he has been. I'm also of the mindset that Pearson's deal is very cap friendly. Poolman's deal was bad, I'll give you that. I don't OEL's contract is as terrible as people make it out to be. He stabilizes the back end. Plus taking him in meant Garland came along with him, which is a huge plus. If you can fault Benning for anything, it's in his and his team's evaluation of bottom 6 forwards and 3rd pairing defencemen lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, HKSR said: Maybe, but the teams that capitalized on the pandemic were walking into it with cap space already available. It's not like they found cap space after learning that the cap was not gonna go up for several years in a row. Even to this day, those teams that are up against the cap are having an incredibly difficult time shedding cap. In fairness as well, Dickinson didn't look like he was gonna be as useless as he has been. I'm also of the mindset that Pearson's deal is very cap friendly. Poolman's deal was bad, I'll give you that. I don't OEL's contract is as terrible as people make it out to be. He stabilizes the back end. Plus taking him in meant Garland came along with him, which is a huge plus. If you can fault Benning for anything, it's in his and his team's evaluation of bottom 6 forwards and 3rd pairing defencemen lol I’ll take OEL and Garland over E r i k s s o n, Beagle and Roussel any day of the year. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 58 minutes ago, Me_ said: I’ll take OEL and Garland over E r i k s s o n, Beagle and Roussel any day of the year. Even for 6 more years of OEL? I think Steve Dangle said it best the one year Canucks fans would have tolerated LE is the one year Benning traded him away to another player whose going to hurt the teams cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 hour ago, HKSR said: Maybe, but the teams that capitalized on the pandemic were walking into it with cap space already available. It's not like they found cap space after learning that the cap was not gonna go up for several years in a row. Even to this day, those teams that are up against the cap are having an incredibly difficult time shedding cap. In fairness as well, Dickinson didn't look like he was gonna be as useless as he has been. I'm also of the mindset that Pearson's deal is very cap friendly. Poolman's deal was bad, I'll give you that. I don't OEL's contract is as terrible as people make it out to be. He stabilizes the back end. Plus taking him in meant Garland came along with him, which is a huge plus. If you can fault Benning for anything, it's in his and his team's evaluation of bottom 6 forwards and 3rd pairing defencemen lol Pearson is an interesting one. Considering how guys like Toffoli or Hoffman were getting paid it was a relative overpayment. If probably isn't seen as an overpayment now because other teams like LA or Philly gave a similar term and money to Top 9 players after the Pearson signing. But then there were reports coming in that Vancouver did set the price for Top 9 players that season with the Pearson resigning and other teams weren't happy with Vancouver because it forced them to give similar contracts when resigning their respective Top 9 forwards. If Vancouver didn't offer Pearson that deal LA and Philly could have extended Iafallo and Laughton at a less price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 3 hours ago, Dazzle said: This is not sustainable, and you'll end up having a bland product, just like when Gillis got fired. So yes, Gillis' failed drafting IS part of this discussion. If he had drafted worth a damn, the Canucks could continue their runs. You need both you need a Yzerman or a Ken Holland that can draft, trade and sign players To me Dean Lombardi would have perfect to replace Benning. Winning a cup twice with a team that could barley score is nothing short of amazing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filthycanuck Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 4 hours ago, HKSR said: The fact of the matter is that EVERY GM has faults and screws up. A lot of it comes down to timing and luck. Honestly, what if covid didn't happen and the cap went up the $6 or $7M it was supposed to when GMJB was trying to re-sign Tanev and Toffoli? Heck, GMJB traded for Toffoli literally a few weeks before the world shut down. I feel bad for him because he clearly had a plan in place, knowing full well that the cap had historically moved up significantly year after year. Unfortunately for him (and for us), covid is a thing, and it happened at an inopportune time. Covid has nothing to do with Jimbo not signing Tanev and Toffoli. If you recall, the teams first move during FA season was signing Holtby to 4.2 million. Seriously? A backup goalie to get that much $$ is absurd. That 4.2 is almost as much as Toffoli went for in MTL. And while keeping Toffoli's camp in a holding pattern, Jimbo was trying to facilitate a trade for OEL and ended up getting Schmidt. Tanev went for 4.5 to Calgary, Schmidts contract was 5.9. So to summarize, instead of Tanev and Toffoli, Jim has managed to replace them with players that added very little to the team, but cumulatively cost more towards the cap. To say that covid is an excuse is BS, clearly as we saw, Benning had money spend, and he didn't do it wisely, what else is new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Me_ said: I’ll take OEL and Garland over E r i k s s o n, Beagle and Roussel any day of the year. This year would have been rough (but it has been anyways really) but I would take 12ish million on cap space this summer + Guenther in a heart beat over OEL and Garland. And I like both of those guys just fine. But right now cap space is king and will likely lose a better player then those guys because of lack of cap. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, iinatcc said: Even for 6 more years of OEL? I think Steve Dangle said it best the one year Canucks fans would have tolerated LE is the one year Benning traded him away to another player whose going to hurt the teams cap No. LE for another year is as stagnant as not doing anything about the Sedins as they dried up into stale cookies. OEL for whatever amount of years he’s good for is excellent. I’m sure OEL in 6 years will be better than what we had in LE, and probably better than whatever players we would’ve sunk six mil into. Edited March 9, 2022 by Me_ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 hour ago, filthycanuck said: Covid has nothing to do with Jimbo not signing Tanev and Toffoli. If you recall, the teams first move during FA season was signing Holtby to 4.2 million. Seriously? A backup goalie to get that much $$ is absurd. That 4.2 is almost as much as Toffoli went for in MTL. And while keeping Toffoli's camp in a holding pattern, Jimbo was trying to facilitate a trade for OEL and ended up getting Schmidt. Tanev went for 4.5 to Calgary, Schmidts contract was 5.9. So to summarize, instead of Tanev and Toffoli, Jim has managed to replace them with players that added very little to the team, but cumulatively cost more towards the cap. To say that covid is an excuse is BS, clearly as we saw, Benning had money spend, and he didn't do it wisely, what else is new? It's all just speculation at this point. I believe GMJB had planned to re-sign Tanev and Toffoli, but covid blew up the plans and he had to figure out a Plan B on the fly. Given what he got back from dumping LE, Roussel, and Beagle, I assume the plan was to replace Tanev and Toffoli with OEL and Garland. Schmidt was just a consolation since the trade with ARZ didn't happen right away. Based on our organizational needs, Tanev would have been better to hang on to, but GMJB recognized he needed to get rid of the useless cap (LE and Co.), so was likely hoping to kill both birds with one stone (ie. cap dump while replacing both Tanev and Toffoli): Tanev >> OEL Toffoli << Garland PS - the organization felt they needed someone to shoulder the load with Demko to help in his development, so they went out and got a good veteran goaltender. I don't see anything wrong with that if it helped in any shape or form in producing the Demko we see today. Hell, it was probably Clarke that advised GMJB to do so... so if you wanna piss on anybody, go after Ian Clarke lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 6 minutes ago, HKSR said: It's all just speculation at this point. I believe GMJB had planned to re-sign Tanev and Toffoli, but covid blew up the plans and he had to figure out a Plan B on the fly. Given what he got back from dumping LE, Roussel, and Beagle, I assume the plan was to replace Tanev and Toffoli with OEL and Garland. Schmidt was just a consolation since the trade with ARZ didn't happen right away. Based on our organizational needs, Tanev would have been better to hang on to, but GMJB recognized he needed to get rid of the useless cap (LE and Co.), so was likely hoping to kill both birds with one stone (ie. cap dump while replacing both Tanev and Toffoli): Tanev >> OEL Toffoli << Garland PS - the organization felt they needed someone to shoulder the load with Demko to help in his development, so they went out and got a good veteran goaltender. I don't see anything wrong with that if it helped in any shape or form in producing the Demko we see today. Hell, it was probably Clarke that advised GMJB to do so... so if you wanna piss on anybody, go after Ian Clarke lol Ian Clark is not the GM and if a GM is listening to the advice of unqualified people, that makes him unqualified to be a GM. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, kanucks25 said: Ian Clark is not the GM and if a GM is listening to the advice of unqualified people, that makes him unqualified to be a GM. Seriously? You think a GM just makes trades and signs players without consulting the coaching staff? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, HKSR said: Seriously? You think a GM just makes trades and signs players without consulting the coaching staff? No. But there were a lot more tentacles to the Holtby signing than "good goalie coach wants goalie, sign goalie". We were in a cap crunch, this contract had to be bought out after 1 year. It was a dumb signing. Edited March 9, 2022 by kanucks25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, kanucks25 said: No. But there were a lot more tentacle to the Holtby signing than "good goalie coach wants goalie, sign goalie". We were in a cap crunch, this contract had to be bought out after 1 year. It was a dumb signing. I think you know Clark has a TON of say in what happens with the goaltenders in this organization. If you think decisions are made about our goaltenders without Clark's primary input, you're out to lunch on how impactful Clark is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, HKSR said: I think you know Clark has a TON of say in what happens with the goaltenders in this organization. If you think decisions are made about our goaltenders without Clark's primary input, you're out to lunch on how impactful Clark is. I'm sure he has a lot of input, especially since his re-signing and promotion or whatever that was. Still doesn't change the fact that he should not have that much sway in the decision when there are major cap implications to consider, because as the goalie coach he likely does not have the required intricate knowledge of the cap, CBA, etc. (although it's not like Benning had this either ) Edited March 9, 2022 by kanucks25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nave Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) Benning did what he had to do to try and save his job. If he kept Loui, Beagle, and Roussel on the books, he would have been fired. It's easy for us to say he should have waited one more year, but ownership was not that patient. Dumping those 3 for OEL and Garland was a savvy move. Both of those players have played well since joining us. Obviously, if we did not do that, we would have tanked and ended up with a better draft pick; but instead we have a team that could make the playoffs. I'll take that. It's not really the year to tank. It's a deep draft with an undefined top 3 with no generational talents. Obviously, Benning was fired anyway, but we should at least understand where he was coming from. His one mistake was trusting Green. Edited March 9, 2022 by Nave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 2 hours ago, iinatcc said: You need both you need a Yzerman or a Ken Holland that can draft, trade and sign players To me Dean Lombardi would have perfect to replace Benning. Winning a cup twice with a team that could barley score is nothing short of amazing. Ken Holland has been one of the worst GM's in hockey for like a decade now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, Nave said: Benning did what he had to do to try and save his job. If he kept Loui, Beagle, and Roussel on the books, he would have been fired. It's easy for us to say he should have waited one more year, but ownership was not that patient. Dumping those 3 and a 1st for OEL and Garland was a savvy move. Both of those players have played well since joining us. Obviously, if we did not do that, we would have tanked and ended up with a better draft pick; but instead we have a team that could make the playoffs. I'll take that. It's not really the year to tank. It's a deep draft with an undefined top 3 with no generational talents. Obviously, Benning was fired anyway, but we should at least understand where he was coming from. His one mistake was trusting Green. You almost make it sound like him doing dumb things in a futile attempt to save his job (which he was crappy at) is commendable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, kanucks25 said: I'm sure he has a lot of input, especially since his re-signing and promotion or whatever that was. Still doesn't change the fact that he should not have that much sway in the decision when there are major cap implications to consider, because as the goalie coach he likely does not have the required intricate knowledge of the cap, CBA, etc. (although it's not like Benning had this either ) Like I said before, if signing Holtby helped in the development of Demko in any shape or form, then he was worth it. I don't have an issue at all given how Demko turned out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, kanucks25 said: You almost make it sound like him doing dumb things in a futile attempt to save his job (which he was crappy at) is commendable. I look at it as he identified dead cap in the lineup, and did what he needed to do to move it out, while also gaining useful players in return. You need to realize MOST cap dumps are 1st round picks going the other way, and next to nothing coming back. The fact he was able to dump LE, Roussel, and Beagle with a 1st round pick and 2nd round pick, while bringing back Garland and OEL is pretty savvy. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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